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  #1  
Old 18-08-2009, 21:10
WhtRabbit WhtRabbit is offline
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How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

Swim's been taking ADD meds for more than 5 years and specifically Vyvanse 50mg for the past year. Swim, in pursuit of a nice high, will take anywhere from 2 to 3 pills a day until they run out then take a break until it's time for a new script.

As 2009 rolled around, Swim's insurance changed and Vyvanse went from $20 to $60. I told swim to ask for a different med, one that could be bought in generic form to save money. Plus, swim's tolerance was peaking.

Swim's doc gave her Adderall IR 15mg twice daily to start. She's interested in snorting and plugging this instance release form of amp. She tried snorting yesterday as soon as she got home. Broke a pill in half, crushed it up and snorted. Sadly, there was no noticeable effect. Plus orange goo was irritating.

To the point... Keistering Adderall IR. Swim's been doing coke on and off for a couple of months. Tolerance well acheived and she's taking a break. She's done coke mixed with a little water this way and reached bliss... until the dreaded tolerance. Do you do the Adderall IR the same? Crush up and mix in a needleless syringe with about 3ml of water? Considering swim's tolerance and length of time on ADD meds, what would be a good starting dose to keister?
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Old 18-08-2009, 23:37
jax1526 jax1526 is offline
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Re: How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

I have been taking adderall XR & IR for 6 years and my prescription baffles most people; two 30mg XR's in the morning and two 30mg IR's throughout the day (yes, 4 30mg's every day). Also, I've gone through periods when I would do a fair share of c*** over a week or two. Anyways...through all this, the one thing that I know for a fact is that you CAN NOT develope a tolerance to adderall. I am extremely accustomed to the way it feels, and I have taught myself how to eat and rest on it, but I still feel it. I've also gotten into painkillers and what not. THAT is tolerance, when you can take 4 or 5 lortabs and feel nothing.

I just can not imagine that plugging and addy could have any positive repercussions.

jax1526 added 51 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...

My previous statement was merely based on personal experience. However, I found plenty of quotes from doctors, as well as results from studies conducted on the subject. Such as this one....

"...which reinforced previous findings that patients do not build up a tolerance to the effects of ADDERALL XR, says Biederman. ADDERALL XR was found to be significantly efficacious across all doses."

This just explains that everyone has their "perfect dose" of Adderall. Doctors do not increase your dosage because you are developing tolerance, they will increase and decrease dosage until the doctor and the patient can find a dosage that can be effective and beneficial to the patient.

I could not post the link to the study, but I can give it to you through a PM.


Post Quality Evaluations:
This is wrong and inaccurate information. Please provide evidence for this or its just a claim with no facts to back it up.

Last edited by jax1526; 18-08-2009 at 23:37. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 19-08-2009, 00:08
chillinwill chillinwill is offline
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Re: How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

Well Adderall XR is a combination of mixed amphetamine salts and one can develop tolerance to amphetamine right? My experience is from when Red Rock was prescribed two 30mg Adderall XR's in the morning and one 20mg Adderall IR in the early evening hours. Tolerance rose drastically. I did see the article you are talking about; however, it seems from both Red Rock's experience, his friends, many others on the web, and just knowing the facts about an amphetamine based structure in general, that tolerance can develop as well as an addiction to Adderall.

Here is some basic info I found after doing some quick searching:

Quote:
When used for long periods of time or at high doses, Adderall XR Extended-Release Capsules may not work as well and may require higher doses to obtain the same effect as when originally taken. This is known as TOLERANCE. Talk with your doctor if Adderall XR Extended-Release Capsules stops working well. Do not take more than prescribed.
http://www.drugs.com/cdi/adderall-xr...-capsules.html
Quote:
This question isn't quite detailed enough for me to come up with a good answer, but if you're asking if people can build tolerance to adderall the answer is yes, very much so. Almost all prescribed people who take it regularly, AD/HD or not, build some tolerance to it. This isn't to say that everyone becomes addicted to it because addiction and tolerance are not the same thing. If you're careful in your tapering process and never use more than a doctor prescribed AND you're fully honest with your doctor, you'll probably build a slow tolerance but be able to avoid addiction.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Tolerance_of_adderall
From our own archive
Quote:

i am only estimating for you depending on what i remember from my personal experience... but i can say that tolerance to amphetamines builds extremely quick, that is why they have such a high potential for abuse as you probably know.

Quote:
Of course you will build a tolerance, however, if you are taking more
than 30 or so milligrams a day...well, that's probably asking for
trouble. My doc says he's never prescribed anyone more than 30. Keep in
mind, this is for responsible and 'medicinal' use. Be careful drinking
caffeine with adderal. I can do it if I only drink a cup or two of
coffee or tea, but I over did it once with the coffee and the side
effects from the two were horrible.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/arc...hp/t-5058.html
This thread How much do you usually take? (including gender) has some good info from fellow members on how tolerance to Adderall can develop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Songcycle67 View Post
SWIM sent me the following:

Allow me first to say, our subject's dillemma is complicated and the response is long to inform, not to bore, but please read as much as you can, as this will be an ongoing struggle for the subject if their condition and need for stimulants is expected to affect the rest of their life. Amphetamine therapy is a very precise science, and with doctor-patient trust not being what it used to be concerning low-dose stimulants, getting proper relief is going to require years of hassle that will probably genuinely piss the subject off royally.



Putting aside all unknowns (formulation used, subject's metabolism and natural tolerance, etc.), amphetamine has a vicious reputation for causing a quick onset of tolerance, and the longer one takes the substance, the quicker it seems to fade and diminish in effect. There are also, in most cases, after months of daily use, adjustments made in the mind which cause the person, as with any other prolonged chemically or herbally altered brain chemistry, to forget what they felt like before they began taking the substance. Although I don't believe this is the case for said subject, it can't help the situation. This natural tolerance and tolerance built through use often doesn't lend itself to use as an uninterrupted treatment for more than 6 months to a year at its worst and 3-4 years at its best from my own personal estimation. People who do use the drug usually taper off and discontinue use to lose tolerance when whopping doses stop working.

I cannot derive anything from the anecdote with the subject's doctor; one could read anything into this kind of exchange. It would be helpful to know what kind of doctor the subject is seeing (psychiatrist or general MD?), the severity and nature of the subject's condition, and what, if any, other conditions the subject has. Perhaps more importantly, would this be the kind of doctor who would generally be familiar with the effects and proper dosing of stimulant medications?

Even if it is a psychiatrist, which is who the subject should be seeing for this issue, sometimes their experience in prescribing stimulants (if any at all) is limited to the occasional speed freak who can be convincing enough to provide reasonable doubt that they are in fact abusers of the substance or adults/children who only take it as needed. A psychiatrist without fairly intensive experience in working directly with patients who require stimulants daily could be unprepared and ignorant to the effects of amphetamine and the way they work when taken uninterrupted for a period of over a month or so. Doctors are required to take classes on pharmacology and such, but that's classroom and no person should assume that their doctor is always properly educated on the specifics of certain substances and their mechanism of action as pertains to individual patients in the real world.

If the doctor is uninformed on even the slightest detail of stimulant therapy, that could be a huge stumbling block, due to the strange way that the body deals with the substance in daily use as opposed to daily use of a substance such as codeine or benzodiazepines. All too often psychiatrists, and especially general doctors, rely on their physician's desk reference and handy pill guides to instruct their prescriptions and methods of treatment. Generally the fine print is ignored and a doctor unfamiliar with prescribing daily medication for conditions such as these may not realize or remember the specifics of the substance's being used.

Four months is, in my estimation, a fairly long period of time to be taking such medications and tolerance is obviously a factor. Relief of symptoms is usually instantaneous or should take at most a day or two if a person discontinues use and then starts taking them again (it takes a few days to get used to the effects of the medication).

Five milligrams twice per day is considered a low dose for most people, and it certainly comes as no surprise to me that tolerance has caught up with the dosage. Why the doctor isn't seeing that is a whole different issue which I cannot speculate on beyond suggesting that if there is any doubt left in the doctor about the validity of the condition, they may be testing the subject to see how they react. Then again, it could be just an oversight....who knows?

I don't believe, however, that it would be out of hand to request a slightly higher dose next time and see what happens. The worst that usually comes of this is just a polite "I'd like to see how you do on this for a while" or something cordial like that. They do have the patient's best interest in mind.


Finally, there is a chance that this just isn't the right treatment for you and he or she is trying to find a better solution or a diagnosis that is more suitable. If this is the case, the person in question should go along with whatever is prescribed or not prescribed and see what happens. If it is the wrong substance, it could be doing more damage than harm and that first two months could've been more the result of amphetamine euphoria as opposed to therapy.


Most importantly, anyone in this situation must be honest with their doctor in all things. These are very dangerous substances in the wrong hands and if used for the wrong condition (manic personality disorders being a good example) can cause irreversible damage quickly.

Just the same, though, if one feels as if a medication truly helped them and their tolerance has merely gone up then I don't see any reason why a higher dose shouldn't be at least tried so it can be permanently excluded from possibilities.


It's not easy to maintain stability with this kind of treatment, but the more a person informs themselves on the subject of their condition and how it is properly treated the easier it is for them to detect whether a given medication is helping or not. Of course this also lends itself to things like self-diagnosis, which can result in severe consequences. It's good to have a nice firm general knowledge of the disorder and its treatments, but this must be balanced with an awareness of what is genuinely stemming from the disorder and what, if any of it, is natural to the body. This is by far the hardest part, and requires a great deal of attention and patience (unfortunately the subject seems not to have the benefit of those two things right now due to dosage).


It's a tricky line to walk, but if the person hangs in there and does what the doctor wishes and plays along, all the while being completely honest about symptoms and problems with medication, trust will develop and then the patient is usually given a bit more freedom to speak up about things such as dosage with few objections. Under no circumstances, however, should the patient instruct the doctor or use the information learned to instruct. This would not bide well; it's okay to be informed, but to play doctor is strictly forbidden!




If another few months go by and the patient isn't fairing any better and the doctor seems uncooperative, it would be wise to find someone else. Some doctors simply won't write beyond a certain potency of prescription for stimulants and some aren't equipped to handle these disorders.



It can get a person down, it can get a person feeling anxious and helpless, but whatever he does, the subject should never, under any circumstances, abuse the medication because of this. It only leads to more shitty complications and consequences. I've been there many of times, to the brink of just wanting to give up completely on a solution, but if the person is smart they'll stick in there and get the help they need. Whether it's this medication, another, or just some therapy and rehabilitation.

Sorry for such a long long long reply, but I feel very compassionate toward people in this situation and I've seen far too many people with these disorders self-medicate themselves to the point of no return or to the point of death. I wanted the person to know that it's going to be a long haul, many doctors, many prescriptions, many sleepless nights and worried weekends; but with the right kind of help they can lead full lives with minimal symptoms.



Good Luck!! Hope you got the important parts if nothing else!




Edit: as if this needs anything else in it, i was re-reading the OP and noticed that this person is taking Adderall IR instead of XR. A lot of people are being pushed into taking XR's (which were too potent for me even at the lowest dose) due to the wonderful people in control of BigPharm and its relatively low potential for abuse. Since the IR's can be snorted and abused more easily it will be harder to obtain higher dosages than with XR. If the person can handle playing guinea pig for a month, the XR seems a bit stronger and even if the strength isn't good enough, it will be much easier to negotiate dosages with XR. Might as well get used to trying new things.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...96&postcount=2
And this last one that can be found at http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...85&postcount=5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manix View Post
You may also want to address the issue of Adderall tolerance, which comes up in most people who use Adderall frequently and/or in higher doses. If I may, I'd like to add a bit of information that I've spent the past week researching. If anyone disagrees with what I have to say, feel free to correct me. I have a subscription to Medscape, Medline, and other information archives for physicians that include the latest experiments and findings...Wikipedia, everyones favorite research base for drug information, tends not to be reliable--especially when it comes to Dextroamphetamine--much of the information provided didn't just lack citation, but was proven false.
A quote from Regulation of Dopamine D1 Receptor Function by Physical Interaction with the NMDA Receptors, from the Journal of Neuroscience:
So far, there's only been one substantial mechanism identified with the tolerance to Adderall and all amphetamine (but not all dopamenergic) drugs in general. Tolerance occurs because of upregulation of the dopamine receptors on the cell. This upregulation can only happen if an activated NMDA receptor on the dopamine neuron has taken in a substantial amount of Ca+2. When you take amphetamines, dopamine levels are elevated, and overexcited dopamine neurons begin to take in a large amount of Ca+2, as this is the bodies natural reaction to the increased neurotransmitter levels. So, how does one go about slowing the tolerance? Take an NMDA antagonist. There's a list a mile long of NMDA antagonists, but Magnesium supplements seem to do just the right job. People on this forum have suggested using Dextromethorphan to slow amphetamine tolerance, however this may work against you. DXM is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, so it as well helps to increase dopamine levels. This is simply going to keep encouraging excessive Ca2+ influx, so the effects in a way cancel themselves out. Besides, if you're using Adderall on a daily basis, you sure as heck do not want to be using DXM every day to prevent tolerance. Magnesium oxide is the most commonly found supplement, however it does not work as effectively as say Magnesium sulfate.

A massive Magnesium deficiency in children with ADHD? It may be that ADD/ADHD's prime cause is from a problem with dopamine concentration. If the only way a dopamine neuron can control how much dopamine is in the synapse is through receptor regulation...and regulation is caused by Ca2+ influx, AND that magnesium has been proven to block Ca2+ from entering the NMDA receptor, wouldn't it make sense to say that the children in this case have excessively regulated dopamine receptors due to there being no counter to the Ca2+? Call me crazy, but I think there may be a connection.
Regardless of who you are or what condition you have, your dopamine levels are going to be higher than before. The level of dopamine in the synapse prior to you taking Adderall for the first time is what is defined as normal by your body, be it accurate or not. An increase in these levels is going to prompt Ca2+ influx. Therefore, I'd say Magnesium supplementation is going to benefit you overall, regardless of whether or not you have a condition.

In my opinion the best way to fight tolerance to Adderall is by taking a substantial amount of a Magnesium supplement, other NMDA antagonists may not be as efficacious in slowing tolerance.

Last edited by chillinwill; 19-08-2009 at 00:19.
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Old 19-08-2009, 00:40
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Re: How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

When talking about Adderall addiction, Buddy believes that it is more of a dependence concerned specifically on doing certain things on Adderall. Buddy has taken at least 60mg everyday for many years, skipping dosages on rare occasions such as taking a "lazy day" or running out of meds before he can refill. But Buddy has never felt any physical withdrawal symptons when he didn't take an Adderall.

Example: Last year Buddy ran out of Adderall in the middle of Final Exam week. He was freaking out and thought that he was experiencing adderall withdrawals for the first time. He was forced to attempt to study without the help his adderall for the first time in over 4 years.

But during the summer, Buddy often goes 3 and 4 days in a row without adderall, and he feels fine.

The absense of adderall to the regular user only creates psychological withdrawal. Buddy's body isn't going to function differently without the drug, Buddy's mind just won't push his body to engage in certain activities that require attentiveness without the medicinal motivation.

Just as Buddy can take four 30mg XR's and fight the will to be productive by watching TV all day, he could also take no adderall and the fight the effects of ADD by getting his sh*t done.
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Old 19-08-2009, 02:15
chillinwill chillinwill is offline
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Re: How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

Well yeah addiction and tolerance are two different things. Tolerance can play a factor in addiction but their seems to be very little, if none physical withdrawal symptoms. That wasn't what you originally were talking about though. You stated that one cannot build a tolerance to Adderall which is untrue. One can still develop Adderall tolerance (say at their normal prescribed dosage) and not develop any withdrawal symptoms physically. Mentally, they might crave the Adderall as Red Rock knows this is the case if he doesn't take his prescribed medication. He has been on it so long (about 13 years or so) that he wouldn't be able to function without it.
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Old 19-08-2009, 04:35
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Re: How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it. I just think that it is more of a mental process of getting used to it, adapting to the way it feels, and learning how to live comfortably on Adderall; rather than a chemical reaction in your body that is building up a tolerance over time. Assuming that being the case, if Buddy were to keep taking adderall, in 5 years he would have to take five 30mg XR's at once just to feel anything.

Think about it...When Buddy and everyone else he knows took adderall for the first time, they noticed a major negative effect on their personality (especially people with extrovert personalities having to cope with the inverted feeling from adderall). But eventually they get used to and learn to behave socially any way they want.

I'll agree that one can adapt to the feeling one gets from adderall, I just don't think that it is the same concept of building a chemical tolerance as found in opiates and such.
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Old 19-08-2009, 05:36
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Re: How much Adderall IR should I start with for plugging?

Amphetamine certainly does cause tolerance, but used therapeutically, tolerance should stabilize. Briefly and abruptly stopping a therapeutic dose of amphetamine medication is not typically all that bad, in fact some doctors will suggest taking a "drug holiday" for a short period to both allow up-regulation of dopamine and noradrenaline receptors, and to check on how the ADHD symptoms are when unmedicated.

As far as I am aware, drug tolerance should occur very similarly (on a cellular level) in the dopaminergic systems as in the opiod systems. That is, activation of autoreceptors modulate phosphorylation of carriers, and activation of receptors adjusts the excitatory post-synaptic potential.

As for the topic of the thread: if swiy must, swiy should err on the side of safety and start low (I'm not certain on the pharmacokinetics involved, but perhaps half a normal oral dose?), gaging the effectiveness at certain dosages.

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