Drugs-Forum  
Home Wiki Studies Forum Groups Blog Video Images News
Go Back   Drugs Forum > DRUG-FORUMS > Opiates & Opioids > Heroin
Mark Forums Read
Register Tags

Notices

 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 18-08-2009, 03:16
RhinestoneCowboy RhinestoneCowboy is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 25-09-2008
Male from United States
Posts: 65
RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
turning tar into powder

According to my friend, last night he was smoking a chunk of black. He has done this method for quite some time, and has always noticed that after he takes a few good tokes from his piece, it will cool down and turn into a very hard, brittle little chunk on the foil. He decided to experiment with it last night, and plucked it from the foil and dropped it onto a mirror, where he subsequently crushed it and chopped it up into a fine, dark brown/black crystalline powder. even after playing with it for a bit, he couldn't get it back to its original, goopy form. It didn't have its typical mega strong acetic odor to it. This is logical, because as he smokes his normal pieces of H, when he first starts out, the acetic vapor is very harsh, but as the piece is progressively toked, the acetic fades as it's being boiled from the foil.

Now, to get to the punch:

Though this is a very crude example of removing some of the leftover acetic acid from tar, this proves that removing it will aid in turning it into a powder. Swim's point of this, is that acetic acid and its high concentrations in tar are very harmful to the users' veins, bronchial tube/lungs, and the user's body in general! This is the main downside to using tar! So after swim's little experiment last night, this led him to pondering a less crude method to removing a majority of the acetic acid from tar, for the benefit of all users' bodies. The average IV user loses all of his/her usable veins in only a couple months of everyday use. Swim knows a guy that moved from the east coast, where he only did white powder. He has used heroin for 15 years, and until several months ago, when he moved to the west coast, he has all the veins in his arms in tact. Now his only administration options are his neck and his femoral, due to the high acidic content of tar.

If we can discover an easy quick way to rid of most of this acid, the health of many can be preserved!

Just a thought. Be safe, everyone.

~RC

Post Quality Evaluations:
Good idea for a thread, would help a lot of tar addicts to find the solution
great harm idea for harm reduction
  #2  
Old 19-08-2009, 17:55
Helene Gold member Helene is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: 27-07-2009
Female from United Kingdom
Posts: 1,222
Helene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline Medline
Points: 4,235, Level: 9 Points: 4,235, Level: 9 Points: 4,235, Level: 9
Activity: 5.7% Activity: 5.7% Activity: 5.7%
Re: turning tar into powder

Hmm...sounds good in theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RHINESTONECOWBOY View Post
The average IV user loses all of his/her usable veins in only a couple months of everyday use.
Swim knows many swimmers (herself included) who have still got usable veins in their arms after years of daily use. Swim thinks that if one is careful, uses clean (smallest gauge possible) works, looks after their veins, rotates sites etc there's no reason for them to wreck their veins in such a short amount of time at all.

EDIT- Okay, swim now understands the issue - the comment was meant in the context of black tar use, swim kinda misunderstood that. She just wanted to make it clear that if you're careful, use sterile kit, good filters, have good injecting practice etc, it really does improve your chances of keeping your veins in good condition. And this shouldn't be overlooked, whatever type of heroin is being used. In fact, it's even more important to keep your IV standards up when using such a vein-damaging type of heroin as tar. Hope that clarifies things a bit.

H

Last edited by Helene; 29-11-2009 at 14:14.
  #3  
Old 23-08-2009, 19:36
RhinestoneCowboy RhinestoneCowboy is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 25-09-2008
Male from United States
Posts: 65
RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

it's largely incorrect if taken out of context, like swiy did.

it's largely correct when returned into the context of TAR use. tar is loaded with acetic acid, which when in contact with the veins of the user, dramatically speeds up the loss of veins. the average everyday tar user uses several grams/day. no matter how much the user rotates arms or anything, there is still a ton of acetic acid entering the veins and damaging them. all west coast tar users end up using their femoral sooner or later.
  #4  
Old 26-08-2009, 07:04
OI39 OI39 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 07-08-2008
43 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 9
OI39 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 16, Level: 1 Points: 16, Level: 1 Points: 16, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

I lived on the East Coast and used to wonder how people could lose their veins so quickly. That was until I only had tar.

In 6 years all, and I mean ALL the veins I could possibly tap are dead. Femorals, Jugulars, and most recently both my subclavians went. It's easy to say it's because people are lazy and don't rotate, but believe me tar'll take the veins of the most diligent among us in no time flat.

I've tried neutralising the acidity in tar to make the imact less on the veins, but there was always issues with precipitates forming and large amounts of sticky goop coating the cotton. Usually it prevented its being drawn into the rig through the cotton. I think it may've reduced the potency as well.

There's so many different alkaloids that're active in tar, which is what makes it superior to E.Coast powder IMO, and I lived in Philly! I personally would love to hear a way to make tar more friendly on the tubes, while keeping its potency unharmed. Even if it took a moderate amount of kitchen chem I'd do it.
  #5  
Old 26-08-2009, 07:34
cra$h cra$h is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 21-10-2007
22 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 2,373
Blog Entries: 2
cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.
Points: 2,105, Level: 6 Points: 2,105, Level: 6 Points: 2,105, Level: 6
Activity: 1.3% Activity: 1.3% Activity: 1.3%
Re: turning tar into powder

Converting tar into powder would be way too much effort to use on a daily basis, unless swim had literally ounces of H he could convert.

Background- The difference between tar and powder (we'll use h4) is how it's produced. From my understanding, in mexico where just about all of the tar comes from they take the opium and crudely convert it to morphine. This morphine still has a lot of plant fats and other materials in it, which results in a goopy consistancy. Then they acetify it, creating not diecetylmorphine, but 6MAM. This isn't exactly heroin, but it's pretty damn close. Most users can't tell the difference. They're just about equal in potency and which is better is really a matter of personal opinion. Now jumping to the other side of the world, countries like Afghanistan actually use a lot of their opium for legitamit morphine production. This means that they create a pure powder that's medical grade. Then using acetic anhydride (wow I butchered that word! Correction please?) they create heroin. Diacetylmorphine kinda heroin. I would love to know why there's different kinds of this shit, like the tanish h3(?) and the white h4.

To convert tar to powder you would need to remove all that gunk, and acetify using acetic anhydride, nothing else. That's a whole lot of chemestry, probably defatting, and possibly some other techniques used to extract the morphine from opium. Then again, what tar is isn't morphine, or even diecetylmorphine, so conversion would be tough. But what if one would acetify using both acetic acid, and acetic anhydride? Would this change both 3 and 6 hydroxy positions to create a super heroin? Or am I just a dumbass who doesn't know much about chemestry?
  #6  
Old 26-08-2009, 15:21
Helene Gold member Helene is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: 27-07-2009
Female from United Kingdom
Posts: 1,222
Helene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline MedlineHelene must mainline Medline
Points: 4,235, Level: 9 Points: 4,235, Level: 9 Points: 4,235, Level: 9
Activity: 5.7% Activity: 5.7% Activity: 5.7%
Re: turning tar into powder

Cra$h, Might be an idea to copy the above post into the opiate chem forum, the swimmers there would almost undoubtedly be able to provide you with some answers. They're all very good at things like that over there...

H
  #7  
Old 26-08-2009, 17:20
rbegoniaz rbegoniaz is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 07-05-2009
Female from United States
Posts: 52
rbegoniaz is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 58, Level: 1 Points: 58, Level: 1 Points: 58, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

Swir can tell swiy that what cra$h says fits with what happened when Swir tried purifying her Tar.Swir had done this many times before,so instead of doing this gram by gram Swir got a quarter/oz.Right from the start she had problems with no reactions etc.Apparently it's that 6MAN jazz.Who knew,anyway Swir lost 7gs.This is to all who have NO idea exactly what Tar does to veins,and would rather go on the assumption that Swius do not take care of the veins.Not only veins but it leaves black track marks,discolors the injection sites just nasty shit.Swir,even when she was a training to be a junkie, was diligent in her vein health and maintenance,and did not reap the rewards of this at all.So please start rethinking this judgement of the misunderstood Tar Babies of this planet.
  #8  
Old 26-08-2009, 22:06
RhinestoneCowboy RhinestoneCowboy is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 25-09-2008
Male from United States
Posts: 65
RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

swim doesn't think it even requires the intense lab work of reconverting the tar into H4... just simply removing some of the acetic acid from the mix would help out greatly! swim stumbled upon a crude version of this by smoking it, and realizing that after several tokes of a large piece of tar, it was no longer goopy, but rather, very hard, and after removed from the foil, could be crushed into a fine powder that lacked a majority of the acetic acid smell. swim also notices that the burn down his throat decreases as he continues to toke off of a piece. this is due to the acetic acid vaporizing from the tar.

swims idea is to get a large amount of tar, and spread it out thin over a pyrex baking dish, and put it in the oven at a rather LOW temp (as to not destroy any or much of the precious alkaloids) for a while to see if some of the acetic acid can be boiled or vaporized from the tar.

after swim's tin foil experiment, he crushed the piece into a fine, BLACK POWDER. swim is convinced that a simple process can remove a good amount of the acetic acid in tar, thus benefiting users of the west coast!!
  #9  
Old 27-08-2009, 17:48
east_of_eden east_of_eden is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 27-05-2009
Female from United States
Posts: 625
east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.
Points: 813, Level: 4 Points: 813, Level: 4 Points: 813, Level: 4
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: turning tar into powder

swim knows nothing about chemistry but being on the west coast aswell is very interested in this, however wouldn't this dilute the strength of the heroin signifigantly?

when someone smokes tar, what's left (the crunchy, black layer on the foil) is the remains with the heroin taken out of it, isn't it?

this is to say, the part that's left will not get you high, so even if someone were to spread it out in a thin layer and try to burn off some of the acetic acid, wouldn't it also be weakening the dope?

just curious, swim would love to know the answer to this.
  #10  
Old 28-08-2009, 04:11
OI39 OI39 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 07-08-2008
43 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 9
OI39 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 16, Level: 1 Points: 16, Level: 1 Points: 16, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

SWIM's been following the idea of acetifying morphine using acetic acid (glacial) to maximize output of 6MAM, but from what I read, heat won't work as a catalyst. SWIM did find what some said would work, but Samurai Gecko seems bent on keeping it secret, so I won't betray him.

The problem's also that you don't know what you're purifying w/tar. There's diacetylmorphine, unreacted morphine, 6MAM, 3MAM, as well as all god knows what else. Not to mention residue from the ass it may've been smuggled in!

Yeah I guess it'd be easier to take a trip back to Philly, buy a piece of uncut and get it back here. Then hope the local satelite post of La Eme doesn't find out and smoke you for it.

But like was said earlier, neutralizing the acidity's easy, it's that even taking it up one increment in pH made it no longer fully soluble and almost impossible to draw in the rig. Papers were used, not a pH meter, so maybe trying it in minute changes at a time w/ more sensitive equipment would help?
  #11  
Old 28-08-2009, 04:20
cra$h cra$h is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 21-10-2007
22 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 2,373
Blog Entries: 2
cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.cra$h really knows their shit.
Points: 2,105, Level: 6 Points: 2,105, Level: 6 Points: 2,105, Level: 6
Activity: 1.3% Activity: 1.3% Activity: 1.3%
Re: turning tar into powder

Quote:
Originally Posted by east_of_eden View Post
swim knows nothing about chemistry but being on the west coast aswell is very interested in this, however wouldn't this dilute the strength of the heroin signifigantly?

when someone smokes tar, what's left (the crunchy, black layer on the foil) is the remains with the heroin taken out of it, isn't it?

this is to say, the part that's left will not get you high, so even if someone were to spread it out in a thin layer and try to burn off some of the acetic acid, wouldn't it also be weakening the dope?

just curious, swim would love to know the answer to this.
swim was thinkin the same thing. By cooking the tar, aren't you cookin off the dope? One could possibly neutralize the acid by using a base, but why would you want to add another unesissary chemical? Samurai G should be here. That guy is like the opiate guru and would shurley clear everything up
  #12  
Old 28-08-2009, 06:15
g666d g666d is offline
Account Awaiting Email Confirmation.
 
Join Date: 13-11-2008
31 y/o Male from Earth
Posts: 640
Blog Entries: 1
g666d probably knows what they are talking about.g666d probably knows what they are talking about.g666d probably knows what they are talking about.g666d probably knows what they are talking about.
Re: turning tar into powder

@crash,
acetic anhydride =
ethanoic anhydride
Ethanoyl ethanoate
Acetic acid anhydride
Acetyl acetate
Acetyl oxide
Acetic oxide

according to wikipedia, also heard it called Anhydrogenous Acetate (i think) and Ac2O

... you did good with your first one!

6mam, from what i understand, sounds easier to produce and apparently 3x potent as diacetylmorphine (or diamorphine, or 3,6diacetylmorphine ). Is important not to acetylate codeine at same time though.

@op, can understand you wanting to remove the acid, and there is a tek called "purifying street heroin", but i don't know if it applies to tar. Is an acid/base extraction, i think. Like someone else said, heroin base is not soluble, have to turn it into HCL or sulphate or something. Not sure about 6mam. Would assume the same. Quite possibly can dilute and precipitate the salt, but really this is above my head, and everything else i have stated i pretty much learned on web, so, yeah. Just ideas.

@oi39, swim read somewhere that someone acetylated codeine as well as the morph when making 6mam, the 6mac put them in hospital, apparently. Can understand people being quiet on this one. There is also story of guy who made fentanyl analogue that gave all his customers permanent parkinsons disease... chemistry can be dangerous if you don't know what is going on. You need to be able to do a melting point test of product at least, swim thinks. Or test on a dog.

Last edited by g666d; 03-09-2009 at 06:57. Reason: added
  #13  
Old 28-08-2009, 17:44
east_of_eden east_of_eden is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 27-05-2009
Female from United States
Posts: 625
east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.
Points: 813, Level: 4 Points: 813, Level: 4 Points: 813, Level: 4
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: turning tar into powder

Quote:
Originally Posted by OI39 View Post
Yeah I guess it'd be easier to take a trip back to Philly, buy a piece of uncut and get it back here.
off subject, but swim is wondering why this isn't more common? swim thinks there would certainly be a market for H4 powder on the west coast, but in her 15 years of shooting tar, she's only come across someone with east coast heroin once. that seems strange.

also, swim was wondering if the purifying heroin thread works on tar? anyone know? she has a friend who says he's done it several times but she doesn't know if he really has or not.
  #14  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:06
RhinestoneCowboy RhinestoneCowboy is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 25-09-2008
Male from United States
Posts: 65
RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.RhinestoneCowboy is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2 Points: 213, Level: 2
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

swim thinks it may be as simple as breaking down a larger quantity in water (to facilitate in spreading it thin to maximize surface area to promote evaporation) and putting it in the oven on a lower temperature in a large, flat pyrex dish. the water would evap and then, by theory, the acetic acid would evap next. being careful not to burn the product and destroy it, a low heat is obviously desired. this, in theory would result in a dried out form of tar, in which the acetic acid has mostly been removed, and it would be difficult to repack into tar. this product would benefit many users' health. swim understands the idea of purifying using the tek available here, but feels that it wouldn't work on tar, considering the multiple different types of opioids in the product. swim's idea isn't about purification, but rather, simply evaporation of the large amount of acetic in the product. perhaps swim should bring this up in the chem section.
  #15  
Old 02-09-2009, 19:06
east_of_eden east_of_eden is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 27-05-2009
Female from United States
Posts: 625
east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.east_of_eden really adds to the discussion.
Points: 813, Level: 4 Points: 813, Level: 4 Points: 813, Level: 4
Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0% Activity: 1.0%
Re: turning tar into powder

that sounds like a very interesting idea swirhinestonecowboy. have swiy tried it yet?

if the acetic acid would evaporate without burning off some of the heroin, that sounds like that would at least be a good start.
  #16  
Old 16-11-2009, 10:30
DLC3R DLC3R is offline
Account Awaiting Email Confirmation.
 
Join Date: 17-04-2009
Male
Posts: 22
DLC3R is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

SWIM tried the basic extraction method (freebase to extract alkaloids into solvent, then extracting with dilute HCL back to a water soluble solution, got back a water soluble powder but it had no potency). In other words, it didn't work.

The best solution SWIM has come up with is just a low-tech method of reducing the harmful effects. First, SWIM used syringe wheel filters (hydrophilic polypropylene, available online), which remove much of the vegetable matter, including a lot (but not all) of the sticky goop, without reducing potency at all. These filters will at least remove everything larger than 0.2 microns, which includes all bacteria, fungus, parasites, dirt and other impurities, down to and including anything the size of a virus. I've heard of tar containing flesh-eating bacteria, so this is at least a good safety precaution.

The second thing SWIM does, as with all acidic solutions being injected, is to fill the syringe as full of blood as it will get before pushing it in. Think about what is happening when you inject -- you are pushing an acidic solution through the end of the needle right up against the wall of the vein. It's unlikely you can keep the needle in the center of the vein as you push it in, and it is blasting the acidic liquid right into the wall of the vein. Do this enough times in the same spot, and the acid eats away the tissue on the inside of the vein. Veins are smart enough to realize that if there is just one spot in the vein that is weakened, the whole vein will collapse to avoid a rupture. Diluting the solution with as much blood as possible, and then pushing it in as slowly as possible, will significantly reduce the damage to the vein wall. Proof this has some effect is that SWIM has been injecting this garbage for years without loss of a single vein. Also, using a new (sharp) rig EVERY time, and cleaning the injection site thoroughly with alcohol, will make a big difference.

Most people don't realize that using cotton to filter pulls up microscopic cotton fibers, and over the years, these clog the microscopic vessels in the lungs, which can eventually lead to pulmonary edema. This type of damage takes years to become a problem, so it is universally ignored. Wheel filters eliminate this problem as well. Filter first with cotton, then with wheel filter. Granted, they are expensive, between 1 and 2 dollars each, but you can filter a gram or so with one filter. One time in 20, the tar is so filled with crap (vegetable matter) that it will clog the wheel filter. If this happens, filter with cotton several times and try again.

I may be wrong but I think the only way to properly convert tar to powder is by starting at the very beginning as though converting raw opium, extracting morphine and converting to diamorphine (boiling in lime, acetic anhydride, using exact ratios, temperatures, cook times, etc., a complicated procedure requiring advanced lab techniques unavailable to the kitchen chemist). That's why the mexicans came up with the shortcut to produce this goop in the first place, so they could avoid the complex chemistry.

DLC3R added 92 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...

SWIM tried the basic extraction method (freebase to extract alkaloids into solvent, then extracting with dilute HCL back to a water soluble solution, got back a water soluble powder but it had no potency). In other words, it didn't work.

The best solution SWIM has come up with is just a low-tech method of reducing the harmful effects. First, SWIM used syringe wheel filters (hydrophilic polypropylene, available online), which remove much of the vegetable matter, including a lot (but not all) of the sticky goop, without reducing potency at all. These filters will at least remove all bacteria, fungus, parasites, dirt and other impurities, down to and including anything the size of a virus. I've heard of tar containing flesh-eating bacteria, so this is at least a good safety precaution.

The second thing SWIM does, as with all acidic solutions being injected, is to fill the syringe as full of blood as it will get before pushing it in. Think about what is happening when you inject -- you are pushing an acidic solution through the end of the needle right up against the wall of the vein. It's unlikely you can keep the needle in the center of the vein as you push it in, and it is blasting the acidic liquid right into the wall of the vein. Do this enough times in the same spot, and the acid eats away the tissue on the inside of the vein. Veins are smart enough to realize that if there is just one spot in the vein that is weakened, the whole vein will collapse to avoid a rupture. Diluting the solution with as much blood as possible, and then pushing it in as slowly as possible, will significantly reduce the damage to the vein wall. Proof this has some effect is that SWIM has been injecting this garbage for years without loss of a single vein. Also, using a new (sharp) rig EVERY time, and cleaning the injection site thoroughly with alcohol, will make a big difference.

Most people don't realize that using cotton to filter pulls up microscopic cotton fibers, and over the years, these clog the microscopic vessels in the lungs, which can eventually lead to pulmonary edema. This type of damage takes years to become a problem, so it is universally ignored. Wheel filters eliminate this problem as well. Filter first with cotton, then with wheel filter. Granted, they are expensive, between 1 and 2 dollars each, but you can filter a gram or so with one filter. One time in 20, the tar is so filled with crap (vegetable matter) that it will clog the wheel filter. If this happens, filter with cotton several times and try again.

I may be wrong but I think the only way to properly convert tar to powder is by starting at the very beginning as though converting raw opium, extracting morphine and converting to diamorphine (boiling in lime, acetic anhydride, using exact ratios, temperatures, cook times, etc., a complicated procedure requiring advanced lab techniques unavailable to the kitchen chemist). That's why the mexicans came up with the shortcut to produce this goop in the first place, so they could avoid the complex chemistry.

The idea of reducing the acid level, as was mentioned earlier, would also be impossible, since it is the acid molecules attached to each alkaloid molecule that makes them water soluble. If you try to raise the pH, it will knock the acid molecules off and the drug becomes non-water soluble, so there really isn't any way to partially or slightly de-acidify the solution in a way that would be useful.

There is a method for separating alkaloids from certain kinds of plant matter, by reducing the pH of the solution very low, to perhaps 3, then adding the right kind of solvent. The plant matter will have more affinity for the solvent than the water while the drug alkaloids will be completely water soluble with no affinity for the solvent, and when the layers separate, the plant matter (brown goop) will stay in the solvent layer and can be removed. I've only seen this work with chlorophyl based plant matter but it's the only other simple method I can think of, and perhaps SWIM will give it a try.

DLC3R added 4 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

The idea of reducing the acid level, as was mentioned earlier, would also be impossible, since it is the acid molecules attached to each alkaloid molecule that makes them water soluble. If you try to raise the pH, it will knock the acid molecules off and the drug becomes non-water soluble, so there really isn't any way to partially or slightly de-acidify the solution in a way that would be useful.

There is a method for separating alkaloids from certain kinds of plant matter, by reducing the pH of the solution very low, to perhaps 3, then adding the right kind of solvent. The plant matter will have more affinity for the solvent than the water while the drug alkaloids will be completely water soluble with no affinity for the solvent, and when the layers separate, the plant matter (brown goop) will stay in the solvent layer and can be removed. I've only seen this work with chlorophyl based plant matter but it's the only other simple method I can think of, and perhaps SWIM will give it a try.

DLC3R added 2 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

SWIM tried the basic extraction method (freebase to extract alkaloids into solvent, then extracting with dilute HCL back to a water soluble solution, got back a water soluble powder but it had no potency). In other words, it didn't work.

The best solution SWIM has come up with is just a low-tech method of reducing the harmful effects. First, SWIM used syringe wheel filters (hydrophilic polypropylene, available online), which remove much of the vegetable matter, including a lot (but not all) of the sticky goop, without reducing potency at all. These filters will at least remove everything larger than 0.2 microns, which includes all bacteria, fungus, parasites, dirt and other impurities, down to and including anything the size of a virus. I've heard of tar containing flesh-eating bacteria, so this is at least a good safety precaution.

The second thing SWIM does, as with all acidic solutions being injected, is to fill the syringe as full of blood as it will get before pushing it in. Think about what is happening when you inject -- you are pushing an acidic solution through the end of the needle right up against the wall of the vein. It's unlikely you can keep the needle in the center of the vein as you push it in, and it is blasting the acidic liquid right into the wall of the vein. Do this enough times in the same spot, and the acid eats away the tissue on the inside of the vein. Veins are smart enough to realize that if there is just one spot in the vein that is weakened, the whole vein will collapse to avoid a rupture. Diluting the solution with as much blood as possible, and then pushing it in as slowly as possible, will significantly reduce the damage to the vein wall. Proof this has some effect is that SWIM has been injecting this garbage for years without loss of a single vein. Also, using a new (sharp) rig EVERY time, and cleaning the injection site thoroughly with alcohol, will make a big difference.

Most people don't realize that using cotton to filter pulls up microscopic cotton fibers, and over the years, these clog the microscopic vessels in the lungs, which can eventually lead to pulmonary edema. This type of damage takes years to become a problem, so it is universally ignored. Wheel filters eliminate this problem as well. Filter first with cotton, then with wheel filter. Granted, they are expensive, between 1 and 2 dollars each, but you can filter a gram or so with one filter. One time in 20, the tar is so filled with crap (vegetable matter) that it will clog the wheel filter. If this happens, filter with cotton several times and try again.

I may be wrong but I think the only way to properly convert tar to powder is by starting at the very beginning as though converting raw opium, extracting morphine and converting to diamorphine (boiling in lime, acetic anhydride, using exact ratios, temperatures, cook times, etc., a complicated procedure requiring advanced lab techniques unavailable to the kitchen chemist). That's why the mexicans came up with the shortcut to produce this goop in the first place, so they could avoid the complex chemistry.

DLC3R added 92 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...


The idea of reducing the acid level, as was mentioned earlier, would also be impossible, since it is the acid molecules attached to each alkaloid molecule that makes them water soluble. If you try to raise the pH, it will knock the acid molecules off and the drug becomes non-water soluble, so there really isn't any way to partially or slightly de-acidify the solution in a way that would be useful.

There is a method for separating alkaloids from certain kinds of plant matter, by reducing the pH of the solution very low, to perhaps 3, then adding the right kind of solvent. The plant matter will have more affinity for the solvent than the water while the drug alkaloids will be completely water soluble with no affinity for the solvent, and when the layers separate, the plant matter (brown goop) will stay in the solvent layer and can be removed. I've only seen this work with chlorophyl based plant matter but it's the only other simple method I can think of, and perhaps SWIM will give it a try.

DLC3R added 5 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

I tried to add to the last post and it repeated the whole thing, I don't get it, why can't I properly edit my own post? I guess I don't have enough brownie points.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Thorough response, obviously put a lot of thought into it.
impresivly detailed 1st hand account, well worth the read!

Last edited by DLC3R; 16-11-2009 at 10:30. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #17  
Old 16-11-2009, 21:00
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: 03-11-2004
Female from USA - Massachusetts
Posts: 4,128
Blog Entries: 6
kailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 11,132, Level: 15 Points: 11,132, Level: 15 Points: 11,132, Level: 15
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Re: turning tar into powder

Quote:
Originally Posted by helene View Post
Hmm...sounds good in theory.


Swim knows many swimmers (herself included) who have still got usable veins in their arms after years of daily use. Swim thinks that if one is careful, uses clean (smallest guage possible) works, looks after their veins, rotates sites etc there's no reason for them to wreck their veins in such a short amount of time at all. In fact, swim would go as far as to say that the above statement is largely incorrect.

H
My best friend lost her best vein (the big one on her left arm, as she's right-handed) on a 5 day visit to Seattle, Washington, USA, shooting black tar heroin while there. At home in New England, USA, she'd successfully injected (white/beige powder) heroin, cocaine & even occasional hydromorphone pills with barely so much as a track mark.

Black tar heroin is REALLY hard on the veins.

~Kailey
  #18  
Old 16-11-2009, 21:49
TarBaby TarBaby is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 21-09-2009
37 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 269
TarBaby is a decent psychonaut.TarBaby is a decent psychonaut.
Re: turning tar into powder

I don't know why the Mexicans can't purify the morphine from
opium any better it looks like a easy process. I found this link
which takes you step by step from Opium all the way to no. 4:
here it is if you have not seen it already: http://books.google.com/books?id=XhG...heroin&f=false

TarBaby added 1 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...

And it's got pictures!

Post Quality Evaluations:
That is a really interesting article. Thanks.
Brilliant link!
Great article. Thanks for posting the link.
fantastic find, great post.

Last edited by TarBaby; 16-11-2009 at 21:49. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #19  
Old 16-11-2009, 22:17
Dicemanstyle Dicemanstyle is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 17-05-2009
33 y/o Male from United Kingdom
Posts: 115
Dicemanstyle is a decent psychonaut.Dicemanstyle is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 341, Level: 2 Points: 341, Level: 2 Points: 341, Level: 2
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Re: turning tar into powder

Quote:
Originally Posted by TarBaby View Post
I don't know why the Mexicans can't purify the morphine from
opium any better it looks like a easy process. I found this link
which takes you step by step from Opium all the way to no. 4:
here it is if you have not seen it already: http://books.google.com/books?id=XhG...heroin&f=false

TarBaby added 1 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...

And it's got pictures!
Brilliant Article mate, swim really enjoyed reading that.

Swim also wishes that White Heroin #4 was available in the UK although it would probably end up being cut to fuck but still. Swim does not want to quit until he has managed to get his paws on some of this gear.

Maybe one day when swim is flush he might attempt at converting brown heroin #3 commonly found in the UK into some nice china white baby!!!!!

Still thanks for that excellent article. Thats going into swims favourites.
  #20  
Old 17-11-2009, 02:46
perfectday perfectday is offline
Mercury Member
 
Join Date: 30-10-2009
25 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 101
perfectday needs to UTFSE some more before posting.
Points: 87, Level: 1 Points: 87, Level: 1 Points: 87, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

Eating salt and vinegar chips gives me the chills, if i don't have gear supply haha, i noticed this the other day.
  #21  
Old 17-11-2009, 08:04
TarBaby TarBaby is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 21-09-2009
37 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 269
TarBaby is a decent psychonaut.TarBaby is a decent psychonaut.
Re: turning tar into powder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicemanstyle View Post
Brilliant Article mate, swim really enjoyed reading that.

Swim also wishes that White Heroin #4 was available in the UK although it would probably end up being cut to fuck but still. Swim does not want to quit until he has managed to get his paws on some of this gear.

Maybe one day when swim is flush he might attempt at converting brown heroin #3 commonly found in the UK into some nice china white baby!!!!!

Still thanks for that excellent article. Thats going into swims favourites.
No problem. Your very welcome.
  #22  
Old 28-11-2009, 13:05
DLC3R DLC3R is offline
Account Awaiting Email Confirmation.
 
Join Date: 17-04-2009
Male
Posts: 22
DLC3R is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

Kailey,
I was never able to find the post by Helene which you quoted so I'm not sure what she is actually referring to. Perhaps I wasn't clear about which type of H I was talking about. My point was that SWIM, in fact many SWIMs I've known, used white powder for years without losing veins. I was referring to black tar, as you stated in your post, black tar is extremely harmful to veins -- not only does it cause them to collapse but to shrink and harden. SWIM has used tar for several years, hundreds if not thousands of times, including daily use for more than a year in Seattle, and never lost a vein (the tar in Seattle was always different, you never knew what you were going to get, at least where SWIM lives now it is always the same). I attribute this to use of lab grade filters, and dilution and slow injection to avoid blasting the vein wall with an acidic solution. This wasn't something that just occurred to me, I read it in a book many years ago. I also want to stress how important it is to realize that filtering tar through cotton and injecting it is very unhealthy. Not only are cotton fibers present in the filtered solution, this method of filtering cannot trap fine but undissolved particles, which over time collect in the arteries and veins, lungs, and the walls of the heart, eventually causing any number of diseases. A lot of people think boiling will kill bacteria, but it doesn't always do so, and even if it did it wouldn't matter, dead microbes collect especially in the lining of the heart, eventually causing bacterial endocarditis, which is fatal unless treated. I'm all too familiar with the usual mentality of IV drug users, which is don't confuse me with the facts, I just don't care. That's why most of them die young, and I'm writing these things knowing that maybe one percent of the people who bother to read it will even consider it, much less make the effort to look into it further, and much less still will ever actually bother to change the way they do things. Since this is the only kind of place you are likely to ever hear about the more obscure dangers involved in this kind of lifestyle and the limited number of ways you can at least reduce the risk, I am more than willing to take the time to spell it out for the sake of the one person here or there who might listen. The ability of the average user to ever get the knowledge, skill and resources to purify this mexican goop is likely much less than the ability to take simpler steps that can reduce the danger and potential harm involved.
  #23  
Old 29-11-2009, 13:55
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: 03-11-2004
Female from USA - Massachusetts
Posts: 4,128
Blog Entries: 6
kailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 11,132, Level: 15 Points: 11,132, Level: 15 Points: 11,132, Level: 15
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Re: turning tar into powder

Undoubtedly, DLC3R!

However, having an extensive background in IVing heroin from the East Coast, it just never occurred to my best friend that there would be that much of a difference in the setup. I assume that if she had a more experienced heroin injector with her in Seattle some of this may have been mitigated - at least he was smart enough to start her small, just in case there was a big difference in purity (there wasn't in the batches she received).

Also, the batch she got was quite obviously cut with coffee/espresso; as this constricts veins as well, she's not sure how much of that contributed; her solutions were also apparently a bit thick, as she was making due with .5cc rigs & had a deep habit.

If she had been more familiar with black tar, many of these issues would have been compensated for.

It's not that big a deal to her, though she would have liked to get out of the game w/out losing a vein, that's rare from what's heard.

~Kailey
  #24  
Old 30-11-2009, 10:10
DLC3R DLC3R is offline
Account Awaiting Email Confirmation.
 
Join Date: 17-04-2009
Male
Posts: 22
DLC3R is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1 Points: 76, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: turning tar into powder

Kailey
You mentioned an important point, in reference to SWIY, it's true of all types of smack but tar more often than powder as powder is more often cut to crap before it ever gets to the street - not always, you still have to be careful, but since tar is harder for the average low-level drug dealer to cut, it happens more often -- that is, you get bags of tar that can be quite strong. For example, SWIY gets used to doing 2 bags at a time, then all of a sudden the dealer gets a new batch that is much stronger, doesn't bother to mention that fact to you, and your usual 2-bag shot turns into a lethal dose. This happened to SWIM more than once, and in once case SWIM would have checked out for good if SWIM hadn't shared 1/3 of the dose with a different SWIM.

I'll make what is certainly a bold statement, as well as provocative, since some people have probably been doing it this way for years. If SWIY shoots more than one bag of tar at a time, sometimes only one bag, SWIY may as well be playing Russian Roulette. The only way to safely shoot mexican black tar H (ultimately any H) is by buying at least a gram or so at a time, filtering all of it at once through a sterile, sub-micron research grade filter, and then doing a relatively small first dose to get a good idea of the potency. Otherwise, if you keep it up long enough (shooting two, and sometimes even one bag at a time), you will OD sooner or later. "OD" might just mean falling out and waking up with a needle sticking out of your arm and a splitting headache, or it may mean not waking up at all. All of this is almost equally as true of powder, but not quite as much so as tar because, as I mentioned, tar is not quite as easy for the street level dealers to cut, so there is generally more consistency.

I guess that since this thread is about purifying H, and the big question at this point is purifying black tar, my point is that unless SWIY has a fairly large supply of tar to work with, good working knowledge of basic chemistry and access to basic but not just "over-the-counter" chems, as well as a lot of free time and plenty of energy, SWIY is much better off just working with the products and methods previously described to mitigate the harmful effects as much as possible. The lab grade filters will remove virtually every last particle of impurity, including the dead bacteria, fungi, parasites, dirt, filth, and viruses, even those present in the bottled water you might have used to dissolve the tar (or powder).

In all honesty, Kailey, I'm writing this much because if that really is your picture, you're very cute, and I'm always very talkative around pretty girls, but mostly, my verbosity on this subject is motivated by my deep-seated anger at the government-sponsored murder of countless people who just needed or wanted to experiment with some psychoactive substances, and in the judgment of govco, they should pay for their proclivities with their lives (if you don't mind me saying so, however, you really are beautiful and very intelligent, and it was lots of fun exchanging opinions with you. By the way I really am extremely handsome and just tolerably vain, so you don't have to wonder if you need to feel grossed out about replying to my post. I did notice that you removed your pic since I started writing this reply, but that may just be part of the system procedure -- please don't get unduly freaked out, a guy can't even compliment a girl any more without being seen as a perv, stalker, etc. -- I thought your comments were intelligent and incisive and I couldn't resist also complimenting your stellarly stunning good looks, which SWIM probably wouldn't have undertaken in the first place if SWIM wasn't high on smack, crack, xanax, wine, etc., which SWIM does not recommend or in any other way recommend to any individual - human, animal, vegetable, alien species, or otherwise.
  #25  
Old 30-11-2009, 13:49
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: 03-11-2004
Female from USA - Massachusetts
Posts: 4,128
Blog Entries: 6
kailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond reputekailey_elise is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 11,132, Level: 15 Points: 11,132, Level: 15 Points: 11,132, Level: 15
Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1% Activity: 0.1%
Re: turning tar into powder

*ROFLMAO* No, I didn't remove the picture - must have just been a glitch. And yes, that definitely is me, though I don't wear my hair down nearly as often as I should. *grin*

It is sad that IV drug users aren't given more information - being mum on the subject isn't going to make them not do it...just find ways that work 'well enough', even if procedures to make the consumption radically safer didn't take any more time, just because they didn't know and/or didn't have access to the equipment required.

One of the many reasons I find needle exchanges to be so important, & why I choose to work at & volunteer at my local ones.

~Kailey

Share this on:

Tags
black tar, black tar heroin, converting heroin, heroin, heroin #4, heroin purification, heroin purity, heroin quality, inject black tar, mdma, powder heroin, purify heroin, tar heroin

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
difference between tar and powder JaWill88 Heroin 24 24-02-2011 13:34
Potency of Mexican Brown Powder / Black Tar soma Heroin 2 06-01-2010 16:14
How to make tar from powder? stumperman Heroin 1 24-04-2008 05:19


Sitelinks: Information:

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:28.


Copyright: SIN Foundation 2003 - 2014, All rights reserved