12 step programs are the bane of the recovery community.

[Spare Chaynge]

Just to let everyone know that their is a recovery community out there that is tired of being overshadowed and monopolized by 12 step programs.

Anyone else agree? Anyone one disagree and think that 12 step programs deserve to have a monopoly over treatment centers, detox's and almost any other thing related to getting off drugs? Considering studies have shown that 12 step programs are no more effective than any other method for recovering why do these people insist on monopolizing everything about the recovery community? Anyone else tired of receiving phone calls claiming that your life is flawed and that you must join the pyramid scheme hidden behind the insanity that is AA/NA. Tired of the pseudo counter enlightenment philosophy?

agree,disagree

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent topic for discussion.

[Spucky]

One big Problem i can see here,
because the NA. and all their Programs like "Synanon" are free and Self-Efficient!
All the other Programs are mostly not.

The Situation in Country`s with a Social Health-System is bad,
even i can`t understand it anymore to spend 50.000 Euro for Someone in a 8 Month Rehab
without a chance to became Clean!

[missparkles]

Phone calls from AA/NA? No it doesn't happen...unless someone has already been a member.
And there are so many different rehabs/treatment centers in the UK, not all are 12 step affiliated.
Sparkles doesn't go with the 12 step programme, she has used it in the past, and if she was desperate she knows that regardless of how long ago she last attended a meeting, they would be there for her. Some need a lot of structure to enable them to feel safe in recovery, usually addicts that are so sick (long term abuse) that have lost all routine in their life (over a long period of time) find the programme helpful.
It does have it's flaws. But so do other treatment programmes.
It works for some, and Sparkles believes it does save lives, that's all that counts as far as she's concerned.
But she does understand the rant...honestly.
Take care Sparkles.

[Spare Chaynge]

Thanks for your kind respect and tolerance of swim sparkles...If you have ever been to a detox/rehab/anything recovery oriented you have been a member or a forced member of a 12 step program...in some cases legally it is your best option to attend a treatment facility..finding one that is not 12 step oriented is extremely difficult, especially for those individuals who have limited time, finances, resources to spend looking for one. This is why swim gets calls from individuals...He tries to talk about other things but eventually they all tell swim he is not really living because he does not live how they want swim to or think he should live.

Anyway, swim does not think he has had the pleasure of meeting you..he regularly bans himself to keep focused on school and other activities. Glad you are here.

p.s you have been here only this year and have posted more than swim...very impressive!

[missparkles]

Thanks, Sparkles is pleased to meet Spare Change too.
In the UK rehabs usually encourage recovering addicts to attend meetings, after all, in the early days it's difficult to stay clean, NA/AA does give people a good basic foundation whilst they adjust to clean time. There are lots of 12 step recovery centers too.
Sparkles did eventually struggle with the "higher power" (she knows this could be the group itself) and "powerlessness" concepts. She didn't believe handing her recovery over to anyone, or anything, was empowering. Quite the opposite actually, she needed to take control of her life, not give it away. But it got her through a vulnerable time in her own recovery, so it worked for her when she needed it.
Sparkles used to do telephone service for NA/AA, so she was one of the sorry assed, pushy bitches that Spare Change is being hassled by....
Sparkles.

[electrolingus]

The following is an observational opinion.
A possible reason for the apparent monopoly on the 12-Step approach by so many addiction treatment facilities (in the U.S.), has to do with requirements for accreditation and State certification, and the fact that most health insurance companies rarely cover any costs for programs that aren't accredited or State certified. One of the many criteria for certification, is the ability to provide sufficient aftercare. Introducing a patient to the 12-Step approach during the inpatient phase, allows a treatment facility to easily accommodate and set up an aftercare program, (i.e. 90 in 90).

Another possible reason has to do with staffing. Since most counselors, therapists, aftercare specialists, etc..., have at least some training and familiarity with the 12-Step approach (or are in a 12-Step program themselves), it makes it an ideal foundation for assembling a treatment team who are 'all on the same page', so to speak.

IMHO, the 12-Step program today is intended to be interpreted however each individual sees fit for it to most positively impact their own recovery. However, SWIM does not feel it should be the only approach, nor is it the best approach for every single individual when it comes to treatment options. SWIM will now show evidence for both sides of the '12-Step coin'.

The following is from...
Drug treatment and 12-step program participation The additive effects of integrated recovery activities
Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, Volume 18, Issue 1, Pages 65-74
R.Fiorentine

"The dramatic rise in the number of 12-step programs and participants raises questions concerning client participation in drug treatment and 12-step programs, and their separate and combined effects on recovery. The results of a treatment outcomes study indicate that rather than recovery alternatives, drug treatment and 12-step programs are utilized by the client as integrated recovery activities. Treatment participants with pretreatment 12-step involvement stayed in treatment longer, and were more likely to complete the 24-week program. Both pretreatment 12-step involvement and duration of participation in drug treatment are associated with subsequent 12-step involvement. Most importantly, there is an additive effect of these recovery activities in that those who participated concurrently in both drug treatment and 12-step programs had higher rates of abstinence than those who participated only in treatment or in 12-step programs."

And on the other hand...
From: 12-Step Programs Fail, The Ledger (NJ) - Reader's Forum; Bill Noren, Annandale - January 3, 2009.

"Sally Goodsen suggests reading the audit of the Governor's Council on Alcoholism and drug abuse to save taxpayer money ("drug, alcohol abuse program needs more oversight," Dec. 29). I have a better idea: scrap state aid to programs that push 12-step treatments. Incredibly, 93 percent of addiction programs use the 12-step method despite no proof it works. Hapless attendees are often coerced or bullied into it by the court system, despite the Supreme Court comparing it to a 'religious organization'."

"Many studies expose Alcoholic Anonymous uselessness: Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma found AA members were five times more likely to engage in binge drinking than nonmembers; Dr. Keith Ditman found AA attendees were rearrested for drunkenness twice as often as those who had not attended AA. AA's own studies say 81 percent of newcomers are gone within 30 days; 90 percent in 3 months; 95% after one year. That's about a 5% 'success' rate or the same as those who attend no treatment at all. In other words, AA is as effective as doing nothing and likely increases binge drinking."

"A Harvard University study found most people quit addictions on their own. Treatment centers won't admit that because they want the money. They'll convince you you're powerless. That's not treatment, that's sabotage."


To view an example of the criteria for state certification of addictions treatment services providers, see...
Addiction Treatment Services Provider Certification for the State of Illinois.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	very valuable information. keep stuff like this coming.
	Very interesting post that points out both sides of the arguement with sources as backup. This is invaluable informatio...
	Great post - adds some valuable info to this thread.

[Spare Chaynge]

Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma found AA members were five times more likely to engage in binge drinking than nonmembers; Dr. Keith Ditman found AA attendees were rearrested for drunkenness twice as often as those who had not attended

wow seeing this on paper is shocking.. swim always has felt that people who attend aa screw up a lot more than those who do not...but 5x more likely to binge.. and 2x more likely to be arrested..amazing..this makes so much sense as swim sees it every couple of months with some of his old friends.

[electrolingus]

Originally Posted by Spare Chaynge

Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma found AA members were five times more likely to engage in binge drinking than nonmembers; Dr. Keith Ditman found AA attendees were rearrested for drunkenness twice as often as those who had not attended

Keep in mind that if you consider the fact that people who attend AA, have a reason for attending AA. As well as the reason why people attend AA is because they have a problem with alcohol. It's no wonder that people who engage in binge drinking and who are repeatedly arrested for drunken behavior, are or have been members of AA.

Since most States legally require a person to attend AA after being arrested for an alcohol related crime, all this statement is really saying is that State enforced mandatory attendance of Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't work.

[Spare Chaynge]

Yeah but swim has personally seen so many people go into aa meet friends in aa and then go crazy with those friends and get arrested. If they never went into the program in the first place they probably would of not got themselves into the situation they got arrested for. Further, many of swims friends drank hard but then they learned "they were powerless" and pretty soon they were drinking x2 as much and binging way more.

[malsat]

Swim is soon going to be entering a 5 week residential rehab that's heavily focused on the 12 step program. However he's choosing to equate the 'higher power' with his beautiful, spiritual experiences of the interconnectedness of all things when on mushies and LSD. He's not sure about 'surrendering' himself, however. He's more focused on the concrete things about the rehab experience that can aid him; getting to know his own mind, gaining insight into his life through the observations of others, and learning to deal with his social phobia by immersing himself in a non judgemental community of strangers that he can't hide away from and can't dose himself into comfort around.

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by malsat

Swim is soon going to be entering a 5 week residential rehab that's heavily focused on the 12 step program. However he's choosing to equate the 'higher power' with his beautiful, spiritual experiences of the interconnectedness of all things when on mushies and LSD. He's not sure about 'surrendering' himself, however. He's more focused on the concrete things about the rehab experience that can aid him; getting to know his own mind, gaining insight into his life through the observations of others, and learning to deal with his social phobia by immersing himself in a non judgemental community of strangers that he can't hide away from and can't dose himself into comfort around.

Take away any helpful advice in the meeting and leave the rest of the bullshit. Some of SWIY's ideologies might not click with the 12 step program or they might not appreciate it (especially since SWIy will be in rehab) if SWIY doesn't fully immerse themselves into the program but one can still obtain some valuable information from the program.

[missparkles]

AA/NA, if nothing else, is an excellent support system when hard times hit, and they are just a phone call away. For anyone needing quick help, these organisations are ideal. To be honest, if you can't say "no" to someone who is being a little pushy, say "thank you but I'm fine now" perhaps a little more work on assertiveness skills might be in order, after all if you can't say no to a person, how do you say no to your DOC?
Using AA/NA doesn't require a blood oath or a lifetime subscription.
For the record Sparkles knows lots of people who have been clean for years with the support of both AA and NA. It's not for Sparkles, she got to step 3 and couldn't go any further, but if it helps others then it's gotta be ok.
It seems we only hear of people who like or dislike this specific programme, but there are lots of people who use it intermittently, and have benefited from it.
Always good to remember not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Take care.
Sparkles.

[Harryblue]

Originally Posted by missparkles

AA/NA, if nothing else, is an excellent support system when hard times hit

I've always thought this to be a fundamental flaw in the 12-step philosophy.
Think about it...if you're struggling with addiction and craving to take drugs who are the best people to go speak to? A bunch of other people struggling with the same problem who don't have the answers either

When SWIM left rehab he turned his back on all the other 'recovering' people and only wanted to associate with people who had no sort of addiction problems. If you want to learn how to be a junkie, hang with other junkies, if you want to learn to be straight then hang with straight people.

You might not get lots of sympathy from straight people, but sympathy is in the dictionary between shit and syphilis and is overrated.
Get straight, move forward, leave the rest behind to mooch about three times a week in meetings all colluding about how bad their lives are. I went to an NA meeting once, found a bunch of people all whining like milk floats about how hard their lives were and didn't go back.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Comments helped me articulate how I feel about it - hope we're not wrong!

[cyndi]

Swim also gets what she needs out of meetings. Anything that turns her off, he just ignores for the most part. Some of the stories help as she relates and doesn't feel she is the only one that is going thru these issues. A lot of people are very supportive in hard times which is what swim likes. She is just saying her opinion, take the good and leave out all the rest.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Harryblue

I've always thought this to be a fundamental flaw in the 12-step philosophy.
Think about it...if you're struggling with addiction and craving to take drugs who are the best people to go speak to? A bunch of other people struggling with the same problem who don't have the answers either

When SWIM left rehab he turned his back on all the other 'recovering' people and only wanted to associate with people who had no sort of addiction problems. If you want to learn how to be a junkie, hang with other junkies, if you want to learn to be straight then hang with straight people.

You might not get lots of sympathy from straight people, but sympathy is in the dictionary between shit and syphilis and is overrated.
Get straight, move forward, leave the rest behind to mooch about three times a week in meetings all colluding about how bad their lives are. I went to an NA meeting once, found a bunch of people all whining like milk floats about how hard their lives were and didn't go back.

Great post sir,that's exactly the way I feel about 12 step/AA/NA.

I have a friend who's in 12 step and all he does is preach about,it's like it's become his new addiction.Personally,I just can't stand it!

[Spucky]

The concept of spirituality may be the greatest stumbling
block for practitioners and patients alike in the course of
addiction treatment. The importance of the human soul on
the road to recovery challenges scientific validation, contravenes
clinical practice protocols, and conjures a moralistic
specter of religion.
However, addictionologist John Chappel has proposed
that addiction medicine cannot ignore spiritual issues. “If
former patients are asked about the factors leading to longterm
recovery from alcohol or other drug addictions, a large
number mention spiritual experiences….”[1]
Yet, there remain two crucial questions: Does spirituality
have a legitimate place in addiction medicine? Does belief in
a higher power play a critical role in recovery?
Reborn Interest
Chappel observed that, in general, health care professionals
have not afforded spiritual issues in clinical practice
the attention warranted by the prominence of these beliefs in
human experience.[1] Polls consistently show that about
95% of people in the U.S. believe in God or a higher
power,[2] although only 50% regularly attend religious services
or pray.[3] Yet, 75% of Americans believe prayer for a
loved one can speed recovery from illness.[2]
Surveys also have noted that 50% to 65% of patients
would want their physicians to pray with them. However,
roughly 70% said their doctors never discussed religious
beliefs.[2,4]
Medical training, even psychiatry, has typically ignored
spiritual issues, preferring to focus on biopsychosocial models
of health and illness.[1] Most health care professionals
simply do not know how to integrate spirituality with medical
practice.[4]
Fortunately, throughout medicine, there is increased interest
in how the realm of the spirit interacts with body and
mind in the management of and recovery from various illness.
The number of medical schools offering programs in
spirituality and medicine soared from just 3 in 1993 to 63 in
1999.[5]
The 13,000-member Christian Medical & Dental Society
seeks to change medical practice by recognizing that patients’
attitudes toward spirituality have great impact on their
health. Other organizations also blend religion and medicine:
eg, Catholic Medical Association, Islamic Medical Association,
and the American Physicians Fellowship for Medicine
(Jewish).[4]
Little Ado About Religion
There are many misunderstandings of spirituality. Chappel
noted that it simply may be defined as the relationship
between an individual and a transcendent or higher being or
force in the universe.[1] Booth described spirituality as “an
inner attitude that emphasizes energy, creative choice, and a
powerful force for living.”[6]
Spirituality does not necessarily require or involve religious
affiliation. Mahoney and Graci observed that many
persons consider themselves spiritual but not religious.[7]
Spirituality is the backbone of recovery in 12-step programs
such as Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Founded in
1935 by two alcoholics, a stockbroker (Bill Wilson) and a
physician (Bob Smith), AA quickly evolved philosophically
from the religion-based Oxford Movement; retaining many
of the Movement’s fundamental principles but emphasizing
spiritual conversion involving “deflation at depth” and surrender
to a higher power as leading to recovery.[8]
AA remains strictly unaffiliated with any religious sect
or denomination, yet, misperceptions persist. For example,
Galanter compared AA’s climate of shared beliefs and group
cohesiveness to religious cults.[9] Others also have compared
AA to a cult or religion, further saying that it goes
against scientific research and denies personal selfefficacy.[
10]
In actuality, shortly after AA’s founding, Bill Wilson
recognized that a religious approach did not work – that
most addicts, for various reasons, have fundamental difficulties
accepting formal religion. Wilson shifted the focus to
each member’s unique experience with a higher power as it
is personally understood.[8,11]
Pragmatic AA members like to say, “Religion is for people
who are afraid of going to hell; spirituality is for those of
us who have already been there.” Or, as one put it, “People
go to church to save their souls; I came into AA to save my
ass.”[8]
Still, there are more similarities with nonsectarian religion
in AA than members readily concede; and, there is much
more freedom of personal belief in AA than outsiders perceive.[
8]
Offshoot Groups
The AA spiritual principles of recovery have been
adopted by other mutual-help organizations in dealing with
various addictions: eg, Cocaine Anonymous, Narcotics
Anonymous, Methadone Anonymous, Nicotine Anonymous,
and others.[8] Chappel stressed that, “The Twelve Step approach
to spiritual experience is one that specialists in addiction
medicine should understand, clinically support and
communicate to their colleagues who care for alcohol- and
other drug-addicted patients.”[1]
In the interest of fair balance, it should be noted that certain
groups derived from or related to AA have adopted
clearly religious contexts: eg, JACS (Jewish), CALIX
(Catholic), Alcoholics Victorious (Christian), and others.
There also are distinct alternatives to the 12-step program
approach that do not encompass spiritual principles: eg,
SMART (Self-Management And Recovery Training) Recovery,
SOS (Secular Organizations for Sobriety); Rational
Recovery, and more.[12]
Spiritual Qualities
For the addict, intolerance, grandiosity, anxiety,
impulsiveness, isolationism, and defiance all boil to the
surface of daily life as dishonesty, fear, egocentricity, and
resentment. Spirituality serves as an antidote – the
recovering addict “lets go” of being “general manager of the
universe” and surrenders to the direction of an all powerful
spiritual force.[13] Step 2 of 12-step programs promises that
belief in a higher power can restore sanity; ie, “soundness of
mind.”[11]
The vital spiritual experiences of persons in recovery
lead to emotional displacements and rearrangements; hence,
a completely new set of ideas, emotions, and attitudes appear
to dominate. Once the person lays aside prejudice and expresses
a willingness to believe in a higher power, the
change process begins.[14]
For the recovering addict, spirituality bestows a “lifestyle
transplant” and a revitalizing release from social isolation –
of feeling like a stranger in a strange land.[8,13] Themes
commonly mentioned in association with spiritual enlightenment
are: inner strength, honesty, humility, charity, compassion,
forgiveness, connectedness, hope, meaning, purpose,
gratitude, and love.[1,7]
The Science of Faith
Spirituality’s role in modern medicine, and addiction
treatment, has been controversial. Anyone can pray; what
matters clinically are results.
Scientific studies have demonstrated that spiritual faith
and prayer can be helpful in preventing and treating illness,
recovering from surgery, reducing hypertension, minimizing
pain, improving quality of life, and even prolonging
life.[3,15-18] Persons with strong spiritual faith are likely to
overcome depression 70% faster and live longer than their
nonspiritual peers.[5,19]
Two randomized, controlled clinical trials have even
demonstrated benefits of other peoples’ prayers on behalf of
patients who were unaware that they were recipients of such
appeals – called “intercessory prayer” or “distant healing.”
In the first study, critically ill patients receiving intercessory
prayers had significantly fewer [P < 0.0001] cases of congestive
heart failure, heart attacks, and pneumonia.[20] In a
recent investigation, patients in a coronary care unit receiving
intercessory prayers had significantly better [P < 0.04]
overall clinical outcomes.[21]
Unfortunately, a pilot study of the effects of intercessory
prayer on 40 recovering alcoholics reported no clinical benefits.
And, patients who knew that a friend or family member
was praying for them drank more than other patients in the
same program. However, patients who themselves prayed
exhibited less drinking during early months of recovery.[22]
Apparently, when it comes to addiction recovery, benefitting
from the power of prayer is an “inside job” that only the
patient can bring aboutResearch by Carter examined recovering addicts and
found a direct relationship between spiritual practices and
long-term recovery.[23] Another study observed that the risk
for alcoholism is 60% higher among drinkers with no religious
affiliation.[24] Separate studies including more than
700 adolescents found that religion was the single most significant
factor in reducing alcohol, cocaine, and other drug
abuse.[25,26]
Humphreys has proposed that treatment professionals
can greatly influence patients’ affiliations with 12-step
groups, producing results comparable to cognitive behavioral
therapy and even somewhat more effective in promoting
abstinence.[27] One study found that patients attending
at least one 12-step meeting per week achieved nearly 80%
greater abstinence from drugs and alcohol than those participating
less frequently or not at all. The researchers concluded
that 12-step programs are a useful and inexpensive
aftercare resource, helping many patients maintain long-term
abstinence.[28]
Nevertheless, some authorities remain skeptical about the
benefits of spirituality in medicine. Richard Sloan and colleagues
at Columbia University have faulted many of the
research studies on methodological grounds. They commented:
“Even in the best studies, the evidence of an association
between religion, spirituality, and health is weak and
inconsistent. It is premature to promote faith and religion as
adjunctive medical treatments.”[29]
Rocky Road
In the final analysis, the validation of spiritual faith may
begin and end on one’s knees – and in one’s heart – rather
than by science. Medicine still remains intellectually entrenched
in empiricism and there have been arguments
against the inclusion of spiritual issues in addiction treatment.
However, it may be intellectually arrogant to presume
that spirituality has no legitimate place in recovery programs.
The experiences of countless recovering alcoholics
and other drug-dependent persons cannot be ignored.
Social prohibitions make discussions of spirituality in
therapeutic consultations difficult. Whereas, peer-led 12-step
groups, by valuing each member’s experience, strength, and
hope – and eschewing criticism of each other – create forums
where people can openly discuss spiritual beliefs.
Sulmasy suggests that health care professionals can better
prepare themselves to meet the spiritual needs of patients
by deepening their own spiritual lives. They should intensify
their own commitments to spiritual beliefs and begin “to talk
with each other about spiritual issues that arise in the practice
of medicine.”[30]
There is great potential for spirituality to strengthen traditional
addiction medicine. However, it must be recognized
that the spiritual road to recovery is never ending.
And, it is forever under construction.

Oh, i forget to add my comment, solly Tomodachi-San`s,

i guess nearly every form of Therapy have a right to be there
Spirituel Recovery is more successful than a only medical treatment
we can`t heal ourself without heal our Soul!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	This is great information that you posted
	Excellent post explaining spirituality in recovery, as opposed to religion in recovery.

[overthetop]

I have been in and out of AA, NA, Emotional distrubtive since I was 4 or 5. By the time I was 15 I would kill somone who tried to push the 12 steps and traditions. But, when I lost everything and had nowhere to turn, I was given the 12 steps and they simply said "these are suggestions that have worked for us. It is not for everyone". As soon as people just offered a hand rather than shove info down my throat, it became easier to accept. I stayed sober for 5 years and made it thru a lost business, bankruptcy, having to move, and losing my mother and father tradically within 6 mos. I found that the 12 steps areonly suggestions and you can interpret them any way you want. That's what got me the 5 years. Nobody in that program is any better or worse than anyone else. You can also take what I say with a grain of salt. I tried other programs of recovery and I believe you need 3 things; 1. some sort of outline how to move along and grow, 2meet friends who you have something in common with, 3 and a place to share all the bullshit that happened that day so you don't drink, use, or kill someone. Just my opinion. By the way I am no longer sober. It's been 6mth and why I'm on this board b/c I've never done this before. Good luck

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by overthetop

I found that the 12 steps areonly suggestions and you can interpret them any way you want.

The only problem with that statement is if one tries to interpret the 12 steps while in NA or especially AA the way they want, the people in there will say, "He is not following the program and is doomed to fail." Red Rock has probably been to at least 1,000 meetings of a combination of AA and mostly NA and this has been the way he has been treated. Red Rock tried to interpret the steps his own way and they said he was trying to do the program his way. They also said if Red Rock didn't follow every step, he would fail. So Red Rock got the hell outta the program and created his own program which he now is coming up on 18 months off heroin.

He does agree in order to achieve recovery, one needs to come up with their own program (whether that be following NA/AA's program or creating one's unique program. One must also have some kind of social connection (whether that be people you can share things with in relation to the addiction and cravings and whatnot or just good friends that don't use). Red Rock reunited with some old non using friends as well as connecting to people on this forum. Finally, one must have somebody to talk to about the cravings and addiction (this step ties in with the previous one). Red Rock does individual counseling once a month now and talks to people on here daily.

Of course this is just what worked for him and one must find their own program of recovery and what works for them.

[Harryblue]

Originally Posted by overthetop

I have been in and out of AA, NA, Emotional distrubtive since I was 4 or 5. By the time I was 15 I would kill somone who tried to push the 12 steps and traditions. But, when I lost everything and had nowhere to turn, I was given the 12 steps and they simply said "these are suggestions that have worked for us. It is not for everyone". As soon as people just offered a hand rather than shove info down my throat, it became easier to accept. I stayed sober for 5 years and made it thru a lost business, bankruptcy, having to move, and losing my mother and father tradically within 6 mos. I found that the 12 steps areonly suggestions and you can interpret them any way you want. That's what got me the 5 years. Nobody in that program is any better or worse than anyone else. You can also take what I say with a grain of salt. I tried other programs of recovery and I believe you need 3 things; 1. some sort of outline how to move along and grow, 2meet friends who you have something in common with, 3 and a place to share all the bullshit that happened that day so you don't drink, use, or kill someone. Just my opinion. By the way I am no longer sober. It's been 6mth and why I'm on this board b/c I've never done this before. Good luck

No offence but thats pretty standard stuff for a 12-step disciple.

'Clean' for a while, messed up for a while, clean for a while...ad infinitum.
My personal opinion for this is because even when you haven't taken drugs/alcohol for a while you're still in the incestuous circle of recovering and failing addicts, you never move away from it, you never leave it behind.
In one way or another the addiction (even if its just talking about it) is still the main event in your life.

12-step people believe addiction is a disease. I once said to one that my addiction wasn't a disease and he said it was because I couldn't cure myself on my own.
My answer was this...

"Yes you're right, I couldn't cure myself on my own. I also had cancer 10yrs ago, that was a disease and I couldn't cure that on my own either. But the doctors helped me and now I'm cured. I don't go to meetings or feel the need to tell anyone about my cancer or how long its been since I had it. I just got on with my life and forgot about the cancer because its no longer an issue in my life".

[methMADMAN]

You know Spare Chaynge you seem to have a relentless need to attack 12 step programs and it is obvious to me that you have very little actual knowledge of them, save for some bad anecdotal stuff that is largely not representative of the program. What is your grudge? If you really just thought they were nonsense and that was all there was to it there would be no need for such drama, such constant attacking of a program that really has little or nothing to do with you, and it not in any way resembling that of which you try to portray it to be.

What I see is a lot of the worst aspects, a lot of the biggest and most common misconceptions about it, and general contempt prior to actual investigation. You see there are a lot of people just like you with some desperate need to discredit the most effective means of alcoholism treatment known to man.

Yes you can find a LOT of references to one VERY incomplete survey of AA done during the early days. This survey was extremely limited in scope, and not at all indicative of the real facts. Why people have such a desperate need to discredit this is beyond me. It has literally worked for millions, but if it's not for you, then why the obsessive attempts to throw mud at it? Personally it is my theory that the part they read about folks who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.... Well you draw your own conclusions....

There is a study that is quite comprehensive and represents the actual facts. In this study it clearly shows that non 12 step treatment graduates about 25% maintained abstinence, where as with AA, it just about doubled (close to 50%). For those who continue to try, results are even more encouraging. This study is linked to here, in my post in another silly (to me) thread about this.

So my question is, if it's not for you, and you found some other way, why the obsessive need to attack something that works so well for millions. Those of you with this need to attack it, might want to ask yourselves why. It truly is quite the bizarre phenomenon.

In any case I am going to try to get this file into the appropriate section of this forum.

A small example of how silly this looks to some of us; you know those split "ergonomic" keyboards? I hate those things, hate working on them at all and even use my own regular one when working on someone's computer who likes them. They are not for me, but for some folks it's the best thing ever in the realm of keyboards. Now would it not look silly if I went on a hell bent campaign to make everyone see how stupid they are? If I went around, against all the logical evidence that some people really like them and tried to convince folks that they were no good and should never be used, would I not look silly? Would it not look like I had motives behind my disdain for them that aren't readily apparent?

Reputation Comments on this post:

awesome points raised, it is bizarre to attack something that works so well for so many.

[missparkles]

People see psychologists and psychotherapists for years. The time you use them is determined by the level of emotional damage you have.
Same with NA/AA, once you feel better, more able to cope with your life, you go to less meetings.
No one said NA/AA had to be for life.
Just use it for as long as you need it.
The cancer analogy is apt, but flawed. If you got pain in the place where you once had cancer what would you do?
That's right, you'd go back and deal with it. Same with NA/AA, you go back when you feel vulnerable.
It has to be remembered that NA/AA is a choice, even in countries where it's mandated by the courts. Why not just take advantage of what they have to offer while you have the chance?
You don't have to sign a blood oath, just attend meetings. When you no longer have to go, stop. To be honest, when Sparkles has had cravings, she knows it's gonna be put on hold for at least an hour if she attends a meeting, by that time the craving is usually gone.
It's that simple.
But addicts will usually fight tooth and nail to deny their own addictions. Admitting that NA/AA has something to offer is accepting you have a problem.
Once you do that your addiction/using is never the same.
Once awareness is gained and accepted you can no longer use in ignorance. I believe that's why so many people dislike NA/AA.
But those are just more insane ramblings from a paint fogged mind (yeah, I'm still painting)
Sparkles.

[Spucky]

Just one short question for my personal interest:
"How much % of Recovery-programs the 12. Step Programs hold in the US.?
Is there still any alternative to them"?

[electrolingus]

Originally Posted by Spucky

Just one short question for my personal interest:
"How much % of Recovery-programs the 12. Step Programs hold in the US.?
Is there still any alternative to them"?

As many as 95 percent of inpatient drug and alcohol treatment programs in the U.S. have reported the use of a 12-Step approach (Brown et al., 1988). A survey of drug treatment programs in Los Angeles County estimated that 75 percent placed some emphasis on the 12 Steps (Polinsky et al., 1995). Acceptance of the 12-Step approach is so widespread that Room and Greenfield (1993) found, using data from the 1990 U.S. National Alcohol Survey, that 13.3 percent of the U.S. adult population reported having attended at least one 12-Step meeting.

Sorry these statistics are out of date, but at least one can get some idea from them.
It has been estimated that currently 93-97% of treatment centers in the US are 12-Step based and Americans will spend $10B or more a year in them. (From AA Not the Only Way, by Melanie Solomon 2005)

Listed here are other methods that do not use the 12-Step approach in the U.S.

SMART Recovery
An abstinence-based, organization that uses "common sense self-help procedures" designed to empower participants to abstain and to develop a more positive lifestyle.

Rational Recovery
Rational Recovery is an abstinence-based recovery approach that is the "antithesis and irreconcilable arch-rival of Alcoholics Anonymous."

Moderation Management
A recovery program and national support group network, founded by Audrey Kishline, for people who want to reduce their drinking/drug use and make other positive lifestyle changes. For people with "moderate" alcohol/drug abuse problems who want to moderate their using.

Women For Sobriety
WFS, founded in 1976 by Jean Kirkpatrick, is an organization and self-help program for women alcoholics.

SOS (secular organization for sobriety)
SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual content of widely available 12-Step programs. SOS takes a reasonable, secular approach to recovery and maintains that sobriety is a separate issue from religion or spirituality.

HAMS Harm Reduction Network
HAMS stands for Harm reduction, Abstinence, and Moderation. The HAMS Harm Reduction Network is a free of charge peer-led support group for people who use alcohol or other mood altering substances.

Biochemical Restoration
A new approach that was developed at the Health Recovery Center in Minneapolis, in which alcoholism/drug addiction is treated as a physical disease.

Eclectic Recovery
Eclectic Recovery (ER) is a method of recovery from addiction to drugs or alcohol which utilizes the biopsychosocial model.

LifeRing Recovery
LifeRing supports abstinence recovery methods that rely on human efforts rather than on divine intervention or faith.

The 16-Steps for Discovery and Empowerment
This empowerment model, developed by Charlotte Kasl, PhD, encourages individuals to develop their own internal belief system based on their perceptions and experiences. It is fluid and open to change as the person evolves.

Trust and Triumph
Non-step meetings based in San Rafael, CA.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Interesting and informative post.
	very informative, saw it just today, it will help to get a Insideview!
	Great information. Could also be added to the "alternative to 12-steps" thread.

[guntroll]

I would totally choose a Smart Recovery over AA, they're secular and aren't dogmatic, but there's not on around me for a good 50 miles.

[Dickon]

Methmadman,

I am saddened that you see the "NA or not NA that is the question" thread that you link to as silly; it contains a lot of interesting debate. When I started it, I tried to take a neutral position and invite people to state their views. At the same time I also set up a thread Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous. Information on 12 step fellowships. and attempted to provide as much information on 12 step fellowships as possible so people could make their minds up about them.

Now, as far as statistics go, these are always hard to interpret especially when there are so many different comparisons. I'm not going to critique the statistics you linked to above except to say that I would always be sceptical of any statistics where the person presenting them has a clear agenda as in this case. The simple reason for this is that if you look at 100 statistical "events" you are (statistically!) likely to get one which provides a 99% likelihood of something being statistically significant, even when it is simply the result of random flutter. So, if there are tens of thousands of individual statistics, it is highly likely you will get some that provide strong evidence of a link that doesn't in fact exist. These can be picked to support a position by someone with a desire so to do.

Aside from this objection, I tend to agree with the idea that meeting participation is likely to be a good indicator of success. What I'm less sure about is whether "working the steps" or making tea at meetings or talking to a sponsor is what helps or simply the participation in itself. If you were told, and this might be doubly true if you believed it, that putting a chicken suit on once or twice a week and engaging in some sociable clucking with others in chicken suits and then going for coffee afterwards would help you abstain from drugs, might this not work equally well? If such a thing existed and was attended, there would most likely be those who believed it kept them clean. The thing is, they would probably be right due in large part to the fellowship aspect and the beliefs involved.

I don't think AA or NA meetings are the bane of the recovery community, but I do think that one of the greatest strengths of 12 step groups, viz their ubiquity and acceptance by significant portions of the drug and alcohol treatment/medical/legal establishment means that other treatment modalities don't get a fair crack of the whip, and genuine research into what parts of AA/NA are beneficial and what parts are superfluous or even detrimental are simply not possible. The trouble is to compare like with like here we might want many other ubiquitous fellowships with different world-views floating about.

My cat twice relapsed after over a year when active in NA. One thing that might have contributed was when cat was questioning NA's position on certain things cat felt he couldn't talk to members to explore these things as they went against "the programme". Cat says..."honestly I've no idea if the relapses were because of this or this is simply something that happened at the same time as I was moving towards relapse. I was certainly very frustrated both times and felt very isolated."

What else can I say. Cat is a year clean on Monday, and this in the sense of NA's definition of total abstinence. He feels more secure in his "recovery" (I am not keen on this word) this time even though he has only attended one NA meeting in this year and that only to take someone cat felt would benefit from attendance.

If 12 step fellowships were simply like ergonomic keyboards that some people got on with and some didn't then they would be fine. In countries like America where people get court mandated to attend meetings the debate about the efficacy and methodology of these groups is really important. The sheer quasi-monopolistic nature of 12 step groups mentioned above also means such debate is valid and appropriate.

Cat says...."In just over a years time, I plan to go to a meeting and pick up a black keyring for being 2 years clean. At that time I might decide to pop into a meeting now and again. I might not. But one thing that will have changed if I do is my relationship to the thing. I'll trust my own instincts more. 2 Years will be (just) more than I managed in the fellowship so is significant in that sense. I will not need, or believe I need NA. I learnt an awful lot in NA and there's no way I'd have been able to get and stay clean without that experience plus the experience of 7 months in 12-step based rehab. That said I've also had to unlearn a few things I've internalised too, although overall I think the experience was highly beneficial".

This is one debate that will run and run. As this is something that some people do have strong views about, I respectfully request that people are respectful of other people's differing views and if writing things in an emotional state maybe consider saving them on notepad and looking at them when in a calmer mood.

I wish everyone well

Dickon

Reputation Comments on this post:

	you are a good "Moderator", a real treasure for any Forum!
	excellent read! Its obvious that your mind is it tip top shape! Adds to the discussion and prevents more ad hominems!