Other - Removing the toxins from amanita?

[Isaiah]

Well amanita muscarias are poisonous, not exactly the drug of choice for most people for that reason, and, I am aware that soaking them in water would reduce the toxicity, but, would it also lessen the hallucinogenic effects? Sorry for the basic question but swim has searched the whole forum for any relevant results, without success, so, please don't leave swim bad reputation. Thank you.

~Isaiah

[Herbal Healer 019]

Actually it would increase the toxicity if SWIY lives in a place where the water is flouridated (I.E. America etc...).

Sodium fluoride is a highly poisonous toxic waste used in creating aluminum. In addition Sodium fluoride was used as a major component in creating the atom bomb because of its corrosive properties.

Amanita's are bad for the liver from what SWIM has heard, but he doubts that a single dose would have any significant impact on SWIYs liver health unless SWIY has some preexisting liver conditions.

I can recommend some detoxifying agents after the fact if SWIY is still concerned.

Reputation Comments on this post:

"fluoride is dangerous" is unsupported conspiracy and is way off topic.

[Potter]

You dry the mushrooms in an oven, 180*f. That is how they are prepared. Please do some basic research next time, as this is posted all over this forum.

Lord knows what Herbal Healer is on about, probably worried about preserving their precious bodily fluids from the commies. There's no scientific backing to the claims of "detox" product, most of them make you shit real bad and not much else. They'll make vague claims of "leaching out poisons and toxins" but rarely do they tell you what those toxins are, or how the product works. Plus you'll notice not one is FDA approved, there's usually good reason for that.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Lovely Information.

[Isaiah]

Originally Posted by Potter

You dry the mushrooms in an oven, 180*f. That is how they are prepared. Please do some basic research next time, as this is posted all over this forum.

Lord knows what Herbal Healer is on about, probably worried about preserving their precious bodily fluids from the commies. There's no scientific backing to the claims of "detox" product, most of them make you shit real bad and not much else. They'll make vague claims of "leaching out poisons and toxins" but rarely do they tell you what those toxins are, or how the product works. Plus you'll notice not one is FDA approved, there's usually good reason for that.

Thank you. Very Helpful. I doubted the flouride rant, 90%+ of all Americans would be dead in that case

Anyway, thanks again.

~Isaiaih

[Herbal Healer 019]

Originally Posted by Potter

There's no scientific backing to the claims of "detox" product, most of them make you shit real bad and not much else. They'll make vague claims of "leaching out poisons and toxins" but rarely do they tell you what those toxins are, or how the product works. Plus you'll notice not one is FDA approved, there's usually good reason for that.

I wasn't reffering to a "detox" product, I was talking about things that keep you in good health such as acai, graviola, chammomile, etc.. 2 keep ur ass in good health & some Colloidal silver, & or Milk thistle to detoxify; which I is why I said if your still worried about the toxic side effects rather than you should detoxify after this, because I seriously doubt any liver or other problems will happen from 1 reasonable dose.

FDA approved dont mean shit other than they cant make money off an impatentable organic product. FDA and big pharma are bullshit when it comes to alot of things, other than the obvious benzodiazapines, amphetamines, & opiates/opioids, especially when it comes to shit like prozac paxil & zoloft which has caused successfull and unsuccesfull attempts @ suicide while under the influece of SSRIs (which for the record have fluoride in them to make your teeth stronger, whiter, and brighter) during clinical trials pre release and later @ the post clinical trial stage.

Milk Thistle--http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69303.cfm

Colloidal Silver--http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1385247

And i didnt say Fluoride would kill you, but suggested that because fluoride is a bioaccumulater cummulative exposure can't be good for u; look up skeletal fluorisis

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Complete and utter rambling, incomprehensible, and grossly inaccurate.
	innacurate misinformative ramblings about conspiracy theories. Not relevant to the thread.

[Coconut]

Originally Posted by Herbal Healer 019

prozac paxil & zoloft ... have fluoride in them to make your teeth stronger, whiter, and brighter

No, they don't. These compounds contain fluorine as part of their molecular structure, but then again, so do many other drugs. Ketamine, for example, contains a chlorine atom, but it is known that ketamine is a safe drug unless abused to extremes. The addition of a halogen (fluorine, chlorine, bromine or iodine) is known as halogenation, which often done deliberately and it is no secret

Zoloft (sertraline) has no fluorine in it by the way, but does contain two chlorines.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Helpful, thank you.

[Potter]

Herbal: Are you honestly suggesting that people consume a heavy metal? What's next, blood letting? You do know that silver is toxic, right? That when one consumes colloidal silver the metal accumulates in the skin giving you a lovely grey blue color? Argyria (pictured below) is a permanent condition which will mark you as a sucker for the rest of your life. Please do not be suggesting people use toxic products that have no peer reviewed support.

And as for Graviola, acai, and all those other "super foods", once again, garbage. Yes, they have nutrients, some even have some novel chemicals that show some potential to be useful, but that doesn't mean they are effective. While this is off topic, I'm going to include a rather thorough brake down of graviola by Dr. Andrew Wile, as he does an excellent job explaining the problems with unsubstantiated claims.

As far as "the FDA doesn't do anything they can't make money off of" that is once again paranoid conspiracy BS. The fact is, it's a long process, and a lot of "traditional medicines" simply don't stand up to scrutiny. Frankly if everything that the Chinese medicine system claims cures cancer worked, China wouldn't have a 60+% death by cancer rate.

You need to learn about legitimate science and the peer-review process. Stop being fed lies by snakeoil salesmen trying to pander to the insecure and desperate. There are no "medical secrets doctors don't want you to know about", there's no "fluoride in the water for mind control", and there's no benefits to drinking heavy metals.

Please stop posting this dangerous garbage.

Now a word from Dr. Andrew Wile

I've seen Internet hype on graviola, which is being widely promoted as a cancer-fighting herb. Some Web sites claim that it is 10,000 times stronger than the chemotherapy drug Adriamycin, and that it is effective against prostate, lung, breast, colon and pancreatic cancers. None of this is true.

I asked Tieraona Low Dog, M.D., director of education at the Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine here at the University of Arizona, about graviola. Dr. Low Dog, an expert in botanical medicine, told me that it is the common name for Annona reticulata, also known as custard apple, a tree that grows in South America and the Caribbean islands and is prized by locals for its delicious fruit and medicinal properties. She explained that the unripe fruit is used traditionally to treat diarrhea and dysentery. The leaves are taken internally to eliminate worms and other parasites and are also applied topically for poorly healing wounds. The root bark is used to reduce fever.

The idea that graviola is an effective cancer fighter comes from research at Purdue University's School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences on the active components of the tree, unique substances known as annonaceous acetogenins. The Purdue investigators found them to be potent inhibitors of cancer cells while leaving normal cells alone. They also found the compounds to be effective against drug-resistant cancer cells.
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But these were in vitro results - that is, the results of adding the annona derivatives to cancer cells growing in test tubes. This is a long way from clinical trials to determine the safety and efficacy of these compounds in people with cancer. In fact, I have found no human studies at all of graviola, for treatment of cancer or anything else. We do not even have basic safety data on graviola extracts. What's more, there is no way to tell whether commercially available graviola contains any of the compounds studied at Purdue. Indeed, the compounds used in the test tube studies didn't come from the custard apple tree at all, but from the leaves of annona glabra, a related tree that grows in Florida and produces a fruit called pond apple.

Dr. Low Dog says she wouldn't take or recommend graviola or its extracts as a dietary supplement. I agree.

Andrew Weil, M.D.

[Routemaster Flash]

Aaaaaanyway...back on topic, Isaiah might like to know that in A. muscaria, the toxins are the psychoactive - or rather, they become the psychoactive.

Fresh A. muscaria contains ibotenic acid, which is weakly psychoactive and very harsh on the body. As already mentioned, proper preparation of the mushrooms involves drying them out in the oven so they're completely desiccated. This turns the ibotenic acid into muscimol, which is much more psychoactive and much less poisonous (though it still has considerable body load).

As long as the mushrooms have been thoroughly dried, it shouldn't do any harm if you want to soak them in plain water (or make a soup or whatever) to make them easier to consume. It's recommended to both drink the broth and eat the mushroom pieces, so as not to lose any muscimol.

These fungi also contain muscarine, which is toxic, but in insignificant amounts.

All this information is available in other threads - do a search for some of the relevant terms, you'll find plenty. Edit: eg. a search for 'amanita' and 'toxicity' turned up this thread http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...anita+toxicity in about two seconds of searching.

Oh, and ignore all this bullshit about fluoride and colloidal silver, though I'm sure you were doing that already!

[Herbal Healer 019]

Considering the fact that the OP is worried about the potential toxicity of Aminitas to his/her liver, I think my posts were relevant to the thread minus a few justifications of relevancy regarding previous posts.

[Isaiah]

Originally Posted by Herbal Healer 019

Considering the fact that the OP is worried about the potential toxicity of Aminitas to his/her liver, I think my posts were relevant to the thread minus a few justifications of relevancy regarding previous posts.

Yes, and, he thanks you for doing so. Help is always appreciated. Thank you.

~Isaiah

[Potter]

While Milk Thistle does show strong promise in protecting the liver from damage, and has recently been discussed in the mushroom hunting community as a good first line of attack to consume on the way to the ER in case of accidental poisoning, this does not mean it can be used an a prophylactic that would allow one to ingest poisons freely, nor does it mean it can be used to repair damage already incurred. Plus "showing potential" does not mean it works, Dr. Weil explains exactly why in that paper.

[Phungushead]

Let's try to keep this thread more on topic, k?

Here's a bit about milk thistle, there's a little section specifically regarding
milk thistle and amanita toxins about halfway down. Enjoy.
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Liver Health – Milk Thistle
By Decker Weiss: ND

While other herbs such as St. John’s wort and echinacea may appear in the news more often, Milk Thistle is actually the most researched and best understood of all the medicinal herbs. In fact, study after study has confirmed the most significant property of Milk Thistle: namely, the ability to protect and actually rejuvenate the liver.1-3

And, while we know for certain Milk Thistle has been used medicinally to heal the liver since the middle of the first century, it wasn’t until the late 20th century that scientists understood how the key compounds in milk thistle behave in the body. These discoveries have allowed scientists to go the next step and combine milk thistle and its key compounds with other synergistic components for even greater and more potent health effects.

When Milk Thistle is taken with other herbs such as dandelion, artichoke, and licorice, liver protection and bile excretion (important for lowering cholesterol levels) are enhanced. And when combined with the natural compound phosphatidylcholine (fos-fa-tid-al-ko-leen), in a patented process, Milk Thistle is better absorbed and remains active in the bloodstream for greater lengths of time.4-6

In this article, we will talk about Milk Thistle, especially when combined with effectiveness-enhancing herbs and/or phosphatidylcholine, and its effect on the liver, a remarkable organ vital to our overall health.


What does the liver actually do?

A. The liver is about the size of a football and weighs on average 3 and a half pounds, making it our largest internal organ. Our entire blood supply passes through the liver many, many times a day. The liver is incredibly complex and has a huge daily "to-do" list, including:

• Filter the blood for bacteria that enter our bodies every day
• Convert carbohydrates and proteins into fat, and store it for later use
• Store vitamins A, D, and B12 and the minerals copper and iron until they are needed
• Convert sugar into glycogen and store it until the muscles need energy
• Synthesize triglycerides and cholesterol
• Make and secrete the bile needed in the digestion of fats
• Make urea from carbon dioxide and ammonia
• Produce hundreds of enzymes needed for digestion and other bodily functions
• Break down medications so we can use them effectively
• Metabolize alcohol and other harmful toxins
• Activate and metabolize hormones
• Produce clotting factors to help blood clot when we get a cut or scrape
• Make heparin to help keep blood from clotting while it circulates7


What exactly does Milk Thistle do for the liver?

The medicinal parts of the Milk Thistle plant are the seeds or fruits. Each Milk Thistle fruit is attached to a single strand of the pink tuft (similar to way dandelion seeds are found floating in the air).

When they ripen, the fruits contain three powerful plant compounds collectively called silymarin (sil-luhmah- rin).1-3 One of the compounds in silymarin is called silibin. Milk Thistle works to help the liver in three ways.
First, Milk Thistle is a powerful antioxidant.1-3,8 Antioxidants protect us from chemicals in our bodies called free radicals. Exposure to second-hand cigarette smoke, exhaust fumes from cars, sitting in the sun, taking certain drugs, or being under stress can all increase free radicals in the body. Free radicals can do lots of damage to our cells (called oxidation) which can eventually lead to cancer, heart disease, and arthritis.9 Milk Thistle protects the liver (and possibly other organs) against harmful oxidation.

Secondly, the silymarin in Milk Thistle protects the liver from harmful toxins and helps treat liver diseases. The silymarin in Milk Thistle helps people with Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C (serious liver diseases) get better.10-12 While silymarin cannot cure cirrhosis (a very destructive and often fatal liver disease), it can improve liver function in people with this serious disease.13-15 In fatty liver disease (often caused by excessive alcohol drinking and often leading to cirrhosis), silymarin can protect the liver from further damage.16,17

And, while we don’t necessarily think of medications as “toxins,” many over-thecounter drugs and prescription medications can hurt the liver if taken in large enough doses or for long periods of time. Researchers have found that Milk Thistle can actually prevent or reduce medication induced liver damage.18-21

Milk Thistle can even detoxify the deadly poison from the Amanita phalloides or Death Cap mushroom. The Death Cap mushroom (as its name implies) is one of the most poisonous mushrooms in the world, containing toxins that are particularly harmful to the liver. Accidentally eating this mushroom can cause severe liver damage and even death. Silymarin not only binds to the liver cells preventing damage from the mushrooms, it also neutralizes the deadly Death Cap poisons.22-25 While mushroom poisoning should always be treated as a lifethreatening emergency and urgent care sought immediately, it is amazing that an herbal compound can detoxify such a dangerous substance

Finally, the liver has the remarkable capacity to completely regenerate after it has been injured. The liver is the only organ (besides blood and skin) that has this ability. Milk Thistle’s silymarin actually helps the liver regenerate itself by stimulating the growth of liver cells to replace the parts of the liver that are damaged.26,27


It sounds as if Milk Thistle is only for people with liver disease. If my liver is healthy, why would I need to take it?

Because our livers are so vital to our health, many of us could benefit by taking Milk Thistle even in the absence of liver disease. However, Milk Thistle is especially helpful if you:

• Eat fatty foods
• Smoke or live or work with a smoker
• Drink alcohol
• Are overweight
• Are dieting
• Live in a large or polluted city
• Drive a car a lot
• Have your clothes dry cleaned
• Live or work in a building that has been freshly painted
• Use pesticides in your home or garden
• Take an over the counter medication, such as acetaminophen (Tylenol®), ibuprofen, or aspirin
• Take a prescription medication for anxiety, gout, pain, inflammation, cancer, HIV, TB, high cholesterol, depression, seizures, psychosis, infections, or to prevent pregnancy
• Have problems with digestion
• Have high cholesterol or triglyceride levels1-3,17-21,26-33


Is Milk Thistle safe?

Milk Thistle is very safe to take. Studies have not shown any negative effects even when high doses were administered over a long period of time. However, a few people may notice some loose stools when they first start taking Milk Thistle. Cutting back on the dose generally stops this problem.34


How much Milk Thistle should I take?

It depends on your own individual health. Doses of Milk Thistle generally range from 140mg to 300mg taken 2 to 3 times a day. However, you need to pay attention to silymarin content, too. The best Milk Thistle comes standardized to contain a high percentage of silymarin.

If you take Milk Thistle combined with patented phosphatidylcholine complex, you can take less because more is absorbed. Doses of this combination are generally between 100mg and 120mg taken once or twice a day. And, if you take a product that also contains artichoke, dandelion, licorice, turmeric, and/or boldo, the Milk Thistle doses often range between 100mg to 140 mg taken 2 or 3 times a day.

Conclusion Diseases of the liver are most often quite serious. If you think you might have a problem with your liver, you need to see a qualified health care practitioner. If you have a diagnosis of liver disease, you need to work closely with your health care practitioner. Diseases of the liver can be prevented. In general:

• Don’t drink more than two alcoholic drinks a day
• Be careful about drinking alcohol while taking over the counter or prescription medicines
• Avoid taking medications unnecessarily
• Avoid exposure to industrial chemicals whenever possible
• Get vaccinated against hepatitis B
• Do not share needles with anyone
• Practicing safer sex will minimize the risk of transmission of hepatitis B
• Don’t share toothbrushes or razors35

And, most importantly, take Milk Thistle every day to keep your liver as healthy as possible!


References

1. Steven Foster Group. The Milk Thistle Silybum marianum. Accessed January 2, 2002.
2. Blumenthal M, Goldberg A, Brinckmann J., ed. Milk thistle fruit. In: Herbal Medicine. Expanded Commission E Monographs. Austin, Tex: American Botanical Council; Integrative Medicine Communications; 2000: 257-263.
3. Robbers JE, Tyler VE. In: Tyler’s Herbs of Choice. Binghamton, NY: The Haworth Herbal Press: 1999: 76-79.
4. Savio D, Harrasser PC, Basso G. Softgel capsule technology as an enhancer device for the absorption of natural principles in humans. A bioavailability crossover randomised study on silybin. Arzneimittelforschung. 1998;48:1104-1106.
5. Skottova N, SVagera Z, Vecera R, Urbanek K, Jegorov A, Simanek V. Pharmacokinetic study of iodine-labeled silibinins in rat. Pharmacol Res. 2001;44:247-253.
6. Buzzelli G, Moscarella S, Giusti A, et al. A pilot study on the liver protective effect of silybinphosphatidylcholine complex (IdB 1016) in chronic active hepatitis. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol. 1993;31:456-460.
7. Porth CM. The liver and hepatobiliary system. In: Pathophysiology: Concepts of Altered Health States. 5th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Lippincott; 1998:745-753.
8. Wellington K, Jarvis B. Silymarin: a review of its clinical properties in the management of hepatic disorders. BioDrugs. 2001;15:465-489.
9. Porth CM. Mechanisms of cell injury. In: Pathophysiology: Concepts of Altered Health States. 5th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Lippincott; 1998:39-40.
10. Liu JP, Manheimer E, Tsutani K, Gluud C. Medicinal herbs for hepatitis C virus infection (Cochrane Review). Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2001;4:CD003183.
11. Patrick L. Hepatitis C: epidemiology and review of complementary/alternative medicine treatments. Altern Med Rev. 1999;4:220-238.
12. Buzzelli G, Moscarella S, Giusti A, Duchini A, Marena C, Lampertico M. A pilot study on the liver protective effect of silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex (IdB1016) in chronic active hepatitis. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol. 1993;31:456-460.
13. Lieber CS. Alcoholic liver disease: new insights in pathogenesis lead to new treatments. J Hepatol. 2000;32:113-128.
14. Pares A, Planas R, Torres M, et al. Effects of silymarin in alcoholic patients with cirrhosis of the liver: results of a controlled, double-blind, randomized and multicenter trial. J Hepatol. 1998;28:615-621.
15. Ferenci P, Dragosics B, Dittrich H, et al. Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver. J Hepatol. 1989;9:105-113.
16. Par A. Treatment of alcoholic liver diseases. Abstinence, nutritional support, drug therapy, liver transplantation. Orv Hetil. 2000;141:827-833.
17. Saller R, Meier R, Brignoli R. The Use of Silymarin in the Treatment of Liver Diseases. Drugs. 2001;61:2035- 2063.
18. Bokemeyer C, Fels LM, Dunn T,et al. Silibinin protects against cisplatin-induced nephrotoxicity without compromising cisplatin or ifosfamide anti-tumour activity. Br J Cancer. 1996;74:2036-2041.
19. Masini A, Ceccarelli D, Giovannini F, Montosi G, Garuti C, Pietrangelo A. Iron-induced oxidant stress leads to irreversible mitochondrial dysfunctions and fibrosis in the liver of chronic iron-dosed gerbils. The effect of silybin. J Bioenerg Biomembr. 2000;32:175-82.
20. Shear NH, Malkiewicz IM, Klein D, Koren G, Randor S, Neuman MG Acetaminophen-induced toxicity to human epidermoid cell line A431 and hepatoblastoma cell line Hep G2, in vitro, is diminished by silymarin. Skin Pharmacol. 1995;8:279-291.
21. Muriel P, Garciapina T, Perez-Alvarez V, et al. Silymarin protects against paracetamol-induced lipid peroxidation and liver damage. J Appl Toxicol. 1992;12:439-442.
22. Vogel G, Tuchweber B, Trost W, Mengs U. Protection by silibinin against Amanita phalloides intoxication in beagles. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 1984;73:355-362.
23. Carducci R, Armellino MF, Volpe C, Basile G, Caso N, Apicella A, Basile V. Silibinin and acute poisoning with Amanita phalloides. Minerva Anestesiol. 1996;62:187-193.
24. Sierralta A, Jeria ME, Figueroa G, et al. Mushroom poisoning in the IX region. Role of Amanita gemmata. Rev Med Chil. 1994;122:795-802.
25. Rambousek V, Janda J, Sikut M. Severe Amanita phalloides poisoning in a 7-year-old girl Cesk Pediatr. 1993;48:332-333.
26. Feher J, Lengyel G, Blazovics A. Oxidative stress in the liver and biliary tract diseases. Scand J Gastroenterol Suppl. 1998;228:38-46.
27. Flora K, Hahn M, Rosen H, Benner K. Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) for the therapy of liver disease. Am J Gastroenterol. 1998;93:139-143.
28. Sonnenbichler J, Scalera F, Sonnenbichler I, Weyhenmeyer R. Stimulatory effects of silibinin and silicristin from the milk thistle Silybum marianum on kidney cells. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1999;290:1375- 1383.
29. Horvath ME, Gonzalez-Cabello R, Blazovics A, et al. Effect of silibinin and vitamin E on restoration of cellular immune response after partial hepatectomy. J Ethnopharmacol. 2001;77:227-232.
30. Edwards J, Grange LL, Wang M, Reyes E. Fetoprotectivity of the flavanolignan compound siliphos against ethanol-induced toxicity. Phytother Res. 2000;14:517-521.
31. Crocenzi FA, Sanchez Pozzi EJ, Pellegrino JM, et al. Beneficial effects of silymarin on estrogen-induced cholestasis in the rat: a study in vivo and in isolated hepatocyte couplets. Hepatology. 2001;34:329-339.
32. Boari C, Montanari FM, Galletti GP, et al. Toxic occupational liver diseases. Therapeutic effects of silymarin. Minerva Med. 1981;72:2679-2688.
33. Szilard S, Szentogyorgyi D, Demeter I. Protective effect of Legalon in workers exposed to organic solvents. Acta Med Hung. 1988;45:249-256.
34. National Institutes of Health. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Milk Thistle: Effects on Liver Disease and Cirrhosis and Clinical Adverse Effects. Evidence Report/Technology Assessment: Number 21. Accessed January 7, 2002.
35. American Liver Foundation. Prevention of Liver Disease. Accessed January 9, 2002.


http://heartspring.net/detoxification_liver_health.html

Reputation Comments on this post:

A fine provision of information!

[Routemaster Flash]

Lots of great health info there, thanks for that Phungushead.

However it only talks about amatoxins, which are found in the deadly Amanitas (Death Cap, Destroying Angel etc.) and certain other genera - AFAIK A. muscaria doesn't contain any of these toxins, not even in minute amounts. I don't think any of the major compounds in A. muscaria affect the liver to any great degree.

And given that A. muscaria is (usually) a unique colour among the Amanita genus, there's really no excuse for confusing it with any of the deadly ones!

[augis420]

if i boil the water with amanitas in it very long time wen there will be very less of that water does that removes toxins? does all toxins will evaporate?

[Potter]

augis420: Please read Amanita basics where all preperation issues have been addressed.

If you boil the mushrooms you will render them edible and no longer potent.