Social - what would the western world be like if alcohol was illegal and Psychedelics legal?

[nickyfab]

he peeps im a scriptwriter and while daydreaming of alternate realities which could be used for a movie setting i just couldn't stop thinking about "what the developed world be like if alcohol was illegal, expensive, dirty (mixed with crap to bulk it up like street drugs) relatively hard to find, and socially frowned upon, while at the same time Psychedelics such as lsd mescaline and mushrooms were widely used and perfectly legal, clean, cheap and available everywhere?

my crazy eutopia i guess lol, the first thing that comes to mind would be
"in this world would anybody actually bother drinking alcohol" take away the cheap, available everywhere, quality control and social aspects of alcohol, would anybody bother with it?

"today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday, was it worth it?"

[Master_Khan]

Great question often wondered about that. First thing comes to mind is there would have been no Bush Presidents in a beautiful place like you describe.

Alcohol is such a common vulgar dirty drug....it would be great if it was prohibited and people could just smoke grass everywhere without fear of censure or arrest. Paradise recaptured.

The idea of just walking into an herb cafe and picking up a few Thai Sticks, some Acapulco Gold, some good Colombian, and a little hash oil and Nepalese Temple Balls just thrills swim. To no end.

[sirmoonie]

It would probably look a lot like the Middle East does now. Oppressive, joyless, arbitrarily ruled by philosophical zealots who claim to be more tapped into god than people who actually work for a living.

But then a brilliant underground resistance lead by SWIM would arise to save the world. Your Utopian Mormon-Church-on-acid experiment - which should scare the living fuck out of any rational human being - wouldn't last a year!

[Herbal Healer 019]

People would be more open-minded & and self sufficient...most likely people would rely less on government, care less about money, and not be good consumers.

Which is a bad thing for the government.

The world would be much more peacefull though...

[Routemaster Flash]

You can't really relax, sit back and simply shoot the shit with friends after work if you're all tripping balls on acid or mescaline. Well, you could try...

To be honest I get sick and tired of the 'booze bad/all other drugs good' position that seems to be close to an orthodoxy on this forum. Fair enough if you don't like it yourself, but it's very unbalanced and disingenuous to deliberately play up the bad aspects of its use (or rather abuse) and ignore the fact that many people get a great deal of pleasure out of it, even if you don't.

I mean, that's just the kind of attitude governments take towards illegal drugs the world over, right?

Note that I don't think psychedelics should be illegal either: they're just a very different class of drugs from alcohol and have very different purposes.

[soloe]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

You can't really relax, sit back and simply shoot the shit with friends after work if you're all tripping balls on acid or mescaline. Well, you could try...

To be honest I get sick and tired of the 'booze bad/all other drugs good' position that seems to be close to an orthodoxy on this forum. Fair enough if you don't like it yourself, but it's very unbalanced and disingenuous to deliberately play up the bad aspects of its use (or rather abuse) and ignore the fact that many people get a great deal of pleasure out of it, even if you don't.

I mean, that's just the kind of attitude governments take towards illegal drugs the world over, right?

Note that I don't think psychedelics should be illegal either: they're just a very different class of drugs from alcohol and have very different purposes.

I totally agree with you. I'm not real keen on alcohol but like you said it is in a different class of drugs. You can't really relax after work every day and drop an LSD tab or an e then be fine for work the next day. There are only a few drugs such as marijuana that can simply be used to relax a bit without full on next day side effects, obviously you can get a hangover from alcohol but only if you drink and excessive amount. A lot less would get done and i personally think society would end out worse.

[cra$h]

hiaght ashbury 1965.

[coelho]

Originally Posted by sirmoonie

It would probably look a lot like the Middle East does now. Oppressive, joyless, arbitrarily ruled by philosophical zealots who claim to be more tapped into god than people who actually work for a living.

Swim didnt know that psychedelics like LSD or mescaline were legal at the middle east...

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

You can't really relax, sit back and simply shoot the shit with friends after work if you're all tripping balls on acid or mescaline.

Indeed! But one could light a joint and chill out instead...

To the OP... Swim thinks if psychedelics were legal the society as we know wouldnt last much long... the system we live in only works because people are kept illuded (and thus controlled) by the government, the media, etc... if everybody used psychedelics, they would see through all the bs and wouldnt comply with it... probably, a great part of the western world would consist of small hippie-like communities, instead overcrowded cities... and surely, the world would be a far better place to live.

[nickyfab]

yeah, im convinced the world would be not only very different but a far better place to live, and as the world is a projection of our mind then it basically means our minds would be very different and better too!
i think there's a lot more behind the structure of our society than we think, it can be no fluke that this modern world seems to be greatly geared towards closing peoples minds and keeping them in a box,

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by coelho

Indeed! But one could light a joint and chill out instead...

Well the OP specifically said "psychedelics such as LSD, mushrooms and mescaline", which strictly doesn't include weed.

Originally Posted by coelho

To the OP... Swim thinks if psychedelics were legal the society as we know wouldnt last much long... the system we live in only works because people are kept illuded (and thus controlled) by the government, the media, etc... if everybody used psychedelics, they would see through all the bs and wouldnt comply with it... probably, a great part of the western world would consist of small hippie-like communities, instead overcrowded cities... and surely, the world would be a far better place to live.

A counter-example: consider the Aztec civilisation. They used many kinds of psychedelics - mushrooms, peyote, Morning Glory seeds, super-strong wild tobacco and probably others - yet they had a huge empire ruled by a theocracy, and went on campaigns against neighbouring tribes to capture people alive so they could be sacrificed in their thousands in blood-soaked religious rituals. (They even used mushrooms while conducting these ceremonies - I mean fucking hell, can you imagine that?!) In a sense they could almost be called the Nazis of pre-Colombian central America.

Happy fluffy hippies they most certainly were not (and all the more interesting for it! ).

[coelho]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

A counter-example: consider the Aztec civilisation. They used many kinds of psychedelics - mushrooms, peyote, Morning Glory seeds, super-strong wild tobacco and probably others - yet they had a huge empire ruled by a theocracy, and went on campaigns against neighbouring tribes to capture people alive so they could be sacrificed in their thousands in blood-soaked religious rituals. (They even used mushrooms while conducting these ceremonies - I mean fucking hell, can imagine that?!) In a sense they could almost be called the Nazis of pre-Colombian central America.

Happy fluffy hippies they most certainly were not (and all the more interesting for it! ).

Well... the OP specifically said "what the developed world be", so swim thought the use of psychedelics was widespread after the world became developed, which is a recent thing (or, at least it is what swim thinks the OP meant with "developed world").
In this sense, the society would have a long shared past with our nowadays society (except by a couple of centuries), and so would resemble our society. Swim doesnt think that a developed society would turn back to the barbarian behaviour of the societies of old, with or without psychedelics.

[Alias: V]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

A counter-example: consider the Aztec civilisation. They used many kinds of psychedelics - mushrooms, peyote, Morning Glory seeds, super-strong wild tobacco and probably others - yet they had a huge empire ruled by a theocracy, and went on campaigns against neighbouring tribes to capture people alive so they could be sacrificed in their thousands in blood-soaked religious rituals. (They even used mushrooms while conducting these ceremonies - I mean fucking hell, can imagine that?!) In a sense they could almost be called the Nazis of pre-Colombian central America.

Hardly. I mean, these guys did get pretty gruesome with their sacrifices, but they killed no more people than the US is currently killing today in the name of Democracy and Freedom. Their gods simply had different names. The way they treated their prisoners wasn't at all the way the Nazi's treated theirs. Citizens sometimes even volunteered to be sacrifice, seeing it as a privilege. And the only reason they were defeated by the Spanish was because they didn't kill them when they had the chance (and they did have the chance, they let them go). They weren't savage or aggressive like most normally believe.

If anything, they were comfortable with death, most likely a direct result of their psychoactive use. I feel like modern society could benefit from a healthy view of death, opposed to constantly distracting itself from the inevitable truth. A society in which psychedelics were legal and popular would definitely result in a more balanced and open populace, without the bloody sacrifices. This is, of course, detrimental to government and politics; both of which run on the assumption that human beings are incapable of governing or defending themselves.

[nickyfab]

this is exactly what i was going to say as the op, in regards to routemaster flash. i specifically pointed out the developed/western world, mentioning the ancients is a good point, but i believe that people are starting to lean towards love not fear, and in such times the use of such substances would in my humble opinion lead to peace and compassion, but unfortunatly it cannot work now, my original notion was :how the world would be if we had evolved to find ourselves in a world with unclean hard to find exspensive booze, and the widespread use of psychdellics, and yes i have to say in my eutopia weed would be right up there as well.

but the thought of shrooms and human sacrifice to me is fucked!!!

[thebige]

Theoretically swim would get his drugs at the convenience store and alcohol at the Dr's or Alcohol Clinic.


imagine that!

[bcubed]

I think you could make an argument that there would be NO civilization, as we know it, without alcohol.

The beginnings of "civilization" co-incided with humans' switch from hunting/gathering to agriculture. The need for the switch has been attributed to consumption of either bread...or beer. IMO, bread's fine, but nothing to change one's life over. Beer, OTOH...

Assuming civilization a we know it had already happened, I don't think psychadelics would be good for the sort of social stability and sacrifice necessary for world domination. After all, "God" has been a useful catch-all to get others to die for, and otherwise make self-sacrificing decisions for "the man." With psychedelics, there is a direct connection between a person and the supernatural...makes priests and other "third-party go-betweens" less important. (Consider that Paul made it clear that even wine should not be consumed, at Eucharist, in suifficient quantities as to produce a pharmacoligcal effect). Thus, a society that had a "healthier" (IMO) view of the relation between God and man would have been easy pickin's for a society that could command "death in the name of..."

Also, society demands a drug that softens the coarse edges of realtiy. This needn't be alcohol...just a euphoric, addictive drug. The thing about addicitve drugs is that they tell you "pleasing lies," while psychadelics sometimes are "brutally honest" (the drug equivalent of being told, "Yes, that dress DOES make your butt look big!") Most people would prefer pleasing lies, and such lies would tend to prevent unpredictable upheavals of the status quo--witness how alcoholics, and other drug addicts, tend not to change much (or at all) while addicted.

IMO, psychadelics are better for the individual, but worse for society. (Also, I'd consider cannabis to kinda "straddle" the divide between the two.)

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Some good points about the role of different drugs in societies
	Very good unbiased post
	Good points

[nickyfab]

well said my friend, and obviously if the masses switched to psychedelics any "world domination plans" you mentioned would be screwed, and people i think are meant to be altering there state of mind occasionally as a form of insight but not relaxation, as with everything else they can be good or bad, it depends on how it used by the mind, if you take drugs for fun (and swim does) then your are abusing it, if you take them for spiritual growth/ceremony then your not, if you take them for an addiction then your are etc etc, and i guess this goes for alcohol, alcohol could be good if used in the right way, but it seems to me that the mind is not ready and abuse happens in every possible path and encounter in life, not because of the objects in question but the mind dealing with them. maybe though, this mind is partly a product of people drinking and closing there minds rather than expanding them, but i still must say that i dont believe i would of ever come to these sorts of thoughts, had swim been a raging alcoholic instead of stoner and shroom user!

[dyingtomorrow]

Honestly SWIM doesn't think it would be that much better of a world. The same basic problem would exist: prohibition, which is a major root of most of society's problems. SWIM does think, however, that people would be much more loving, personally happy, and creative. He thinks that this would result in more technology and inventions, and that the cost of "security" against theft, vandalism and the like, in all its forms (which drains a huge part of most economic production), would dramatically decrease, meaning more wealth for all and leaving people with more free time if they so choose, and a much higher quality of life. More middle class people definitely.
SWIM also thinks that organized religion would fracture into many pieces. There would be all kinds of people going around, using mushrooms and religious BS to convert people to a bunch of different abstract beliefs. Some good, some bad (for society).

Personally, SWIM would hate it, for the same reason he hates this society. Heroin is illegal.

[RX420]

people would be smarter....

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by RX420

people would be smarter....

Why? Do psychedelics 'make you clever(er)'? This is a totally unsupported claim.

[Valseedian]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

Why? Do psychedelics 'make you clever(er)'? This is a totally unsupported claim.

considering that alchohol kills brain cells, and most psychedelics (well, some...) don't.. I'd say the claim was well enough founded.

[Routemaster Flash]

Alcohol kills brain cells if you abuse it. SWIM enjoys a drink - though he's not an alcoholic - and didn't noticed this getting in the way of his Master's degree in theoretical physics. And whatever effects alcohol has, has no bearing on the long-term effects of psychedelics.

Speaking of physics, Richard Feynman (one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century) was a hard drinker, although he stopped drinking after he realised he was becoming an alcoholic as he didn't want to damage his brain. He was also a friend and associate of John Lilly and participated in sensory deprivation tank experiments with LSD and ketamine.

I dunno, I guess I'm just very hostile to the idea that there are certain 'types' of people who use certain drugs. I have friends who are totally nice, decent, genuine people who really like cocaine, I've run across selfish arseholes who take shitloads of ecstasy and I've known uptight stoners. I also think it's a massive oversimplification to assume that taking psychedelics is some sort of shortcut to enlightenment or philosophical gnosis.

[psyche]

Psychiatry and classifications of mental illnesses
might be reconsidered as too general. Or it would became a more mainstream way of getting to know one's own root problems and learning to cope with them.

Reputation Comments on this post:

A good point that hadn't been raised so far.

[RX420]

my friends just kidding , but my friend has been shown more insight into things on delics than he has ever on alcohol. My friend just means, what can be learned or taken away from booze???