Ayahuasca basics

[stinky_plant]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Swim has found definite effects from 15-18g mimosa after a citric-acid cold water extraction, with slightly diminished results from a boiled extraction, though both extracts showed definite psychoactivity without an MAOI. The experiences were far more intoxicating, less pleasurable and productive, though undeniably present. Ott and McKenna have also reported finding some psychoactivity in mimosa without the use of an MAOI.

HOly shit!

Is SWIM fucked then having a concoction of 18g MHRB and 28g red (very strong) caapi)? Would SWIY drink said concoction?

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by stinky_plant

HOly shit!

Is SWIM fucked then having a concoction of 18g MHRB and 28g red (very strong) caapi)? Would SWIY drink said concoction?

Doubtful is 28 grams of Cappi will give one full inhibition, so swim would down half of it' wait an hour' an do some more' Bodies mao shall kill most of the spice from the 18g mhrb' there is a possible 180mg in 18g of mhrb'

Ez nwo'

Motumbu'~

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by Randombutterfly

Anyone knows if the Mimosa by itself has any effects?

Grind the MHRB to a fine powder'
Soak it in soft water' the mineral waters of ph 5-6 work fine'

Stick it in the fridge for a week'

No other solvent than water' the tannins in MHRB are aweful'

8-15 grams of wood'

Strain the liquid through a coffee filter'

Drink on an empty stomach'

Very subtle dreamy experience' fine light patterns eyes closed eyes open'
Lots of introspection'

The art with Jurema is to get the goodies out of the woods without all the tannins'

Deacanting many times helps' or some folks are sacralige enough to attempt to clean it with an egg white gently boiled'

Problem' you boil Jurema it no work'

Cold water extraction in the fridge'

A good hit of alcohol and tobacco juice helps greatly with potentiation'

Safe journeys folks'

Bliss

Motumba added 8 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by TheGrassIsGreener

if one had access to crystalline Dmt, would it be worth it to just consume that and some rue in capsules? How much pure Dmt is recomended?

60-100mg'

Do the Rue first' wait until you feel it'(40 mins +) mix the spice with a little water and vinagar'

Drink the said spice'

Visuals start in ten minutes'

Heavy experience if you get the Rue correct ! !

Bliss

[ElectroStep]

Does anyone else not get any effects from harmine/syrian rue by itself?

I had 5g the other day and got so little I'm going to assume it was a placebo effect.

ElectroStep added 0 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...

That was on behalf of a friend...

ElectroStep added 1 Minutes and 5 Seconds later...

Swim says: Anyone else not get any effects from Syrian Rue on it's own?

I did 5g in total. But nothing really noticable.

[Malkavian]

Originally Posted by Randombutterfly

Anyone knows if the Mimosa by itself has any effects?

Let me point out a couple of basic things:

1. Most ayahuasca/hoasca is a mix of a DMT containing ingredient and a MAOi containing ingredient.

2. DMT is a psychedelic somewhat similar to psilocybin or mescaline/cacti.

3. MAOi is a Mono Amine Oxidase inhibitor

4. MAO keeps the body safe by eliminating poisons and regulating various endogenous substances. DMT is cleaned up pretty fast by MAO, so if you smoke pure DMT, which administers the full dose fast, you'll only have a trip of 15-30 minutes. Often oral DMT will be absorbed over so long a time that MAO manages to mop up the larger part of it (making it seem like "it doesn't work).

5. By inhibiting MAO you make the DMT work for a longer period of time.

6. Inhibiting MAO also makes your body vulnerable to other poisons and toxins. Some foods are not good for you while on MAO, so you must absolutely research this. Some drugs like MDMA and psilocybin are affected in strength, duration and toxicity by MAO, so do not mix. This advice isn't the usual "don't mix drugs, dude, it's supposed to be dangerous". It's more like "oh no, I don't wanna die, please please, *sob* *sob*, what will my family think when they find me dead on the couch". Be aware that some anti-depressants use MAOi that lasts for something like a whole week (the socalled "irreversible MAOi").

The mimosa bark contains DMT, so now you know.

[Neosapien]

There's been a lot of debate about that but I'll say no considering that my friend has had nothing come of Aya trips using MHRB extract if the MAOI konks out.

[acolon_5]

Originally Posted by Neosapien

There's been a lot of debate about that but I'll say no considering that my friend has had nothing come of Aya trips using MHRB extract if the MAOI konks out.

Actually many are saying yes! It must be a cold water "extraction" not dmt crystals from MHRB. Soak in cold water for a week periodically squeezing the bark. Drink as is. There appears to be an MAOI in the bark that is destroyed by acidic conditions and heat.

30-300grams/dose (YMMV) Not particularly a strong experience from what SWIM has read.

[Freedom of Mind]

Is boiling and acidifying a brew necessary?

If SWIM were to eat 3.5 grams of Syrian Rue, then over the next hour consumed 30 grams Psychotria viridis without any specific preparations, would this work out fine?

[dadrone]

To save anyone the trouble of digesting my ayahuasca health issues post...

It can be extremely dangerious to over do it with Rue

SWIM made a brew using a ghastly NINE GRAMS (and yes, it was weighed out... SWIM doesn't know if this makes him MORE stupid or less so...) of Syrian rue. ..And 30 grams MHRB.

SWIM had a physically overwhelming experience... was this the rue itself or the combination? Essentially, SWIM felt as if he was going to either black out or have seizures at any moment while he was in the peak. Unfortunately (and not surprisingly), the fears regarding SWIM's physical body made it impossible to enjoy the experience, which SWIM admits was mindblowingly intense in and of itself.

It would be wonderful to know if this was just due to SWIM having ingested far too much rue (oh, and to compound SWIM's massive stupidity, he didn't fast beforehand), because SWIM has sworn off psychedelics due to his fear of seizing.

(Well, not entirely. SWIM did do a small dose of ketamine a few months after the experience, with no ill effect.)

And in defense of SWIM, he used to consider himself a hardhead psychedelically, and was not sufficiently respectful of ayahuasca's power. SWIM has indeed learned his lesson, albeit the hard way.

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by UBTNG

To save anyone the trouble of digesting my ayahuasca health issues post...



SWIM made a brew using a ghastly NINE GRAMS (and yes, it was weighed out... SWIM doesn't know if this makes him MORE stupid or less so...) of Syrian rue. ..And 30 grams MHRB.

SWIM had a physically overwhelming experience... was this the rue itself or the combination? Essentially, SWIM felt as if he was going to either black out or have seizures at any moment while he was in the peak. Unfortunately (and not surprisingly), the fears regarding SWIM's physical body made it impossible to enjoy the experience, which SWIM admits was mindblowingly intense in and of itself.

It would be wonderful to know if this was just due to SWIM having ingested far too much rue (oh, and to compound SWIM's massive stupidity, he didn't fast beforehand), because SWIM has sworn off psychedelics due to his fear of seizing.

(Well, not entirely. SWIM did do a small dose of ketamine a few months after the experience, with no ill effect.)

And in defense of SWIM, he used to consider himself a hardhead psychedelically, and was not sufficiently respectful of ayahuasca's power. SWIM has indeed learned his lesson, albeit the hard way.

A very stupid thing to do'
You where very respectful to Madre Ayahuasca'
Seeing as "You never drunk her''

Rue can be seriously dangerious' and 30 grams of mimosa is just crazy'

50 grams of good vine and six grams of mimosa is plenty enough'

Be safe'

Nobuoni +

[Jasim]

Originally Posted by UBTNG

To save anyone the trouble of digesting my ayahuasca health issues post...



SWIM made a brew using a ghastly NINE GRAMS (and yes, it was weighed out... SWIM doesn't know if this makes him MORE stupid or less so...) of Syrian rue. ..And 30 grams MHRB.

SWIM had a physically overwhelming experience... was this the rue itself or the combination? Essentially, SWIM felt as if he was going to either black out or have seizures at any moment while he was in the peak. Unfortunately (and not surprisingly), the fears regarding SWIM's physical body made it impossible to enjoy the experience, which SWIM admits was mindblowingly intense in and of itself.

It would be wonderful to know if this was just due to SWIM having ingested far too much rue (oh, and to compound SWIM's massive stupidity, he didn't fast beforehand), because SWIM has sworn off psychedelics due to his fear of seizing.

(Well, not entirely. SWIM did do a small dose of ketamine a few months after the experience, with no ill effect.)

And in defense of SWIM, he used to consider himself a hardhead psychedelically, and was not sufficiently respectful of ayahuasca's power. SWIM has indeed learned his lesson, albeit the hard way.

Typically, swiy would want a consistent, small dose of the MAOI. As one increases the dose of the tryptamine, one does NOT want to correspondingly increase the dose of the MAOI. Swim could quote Shulgin on this, but swim is without his book atm.

When swiy finds a dose of the MAOI that works, just stick with that dose no matter the dose of the tryptamine, with possibly only very minor adjustments to find the best match.

Biochemically, the MAOI prevents the enzymes in the body from destroying the tryptamines. Only need enough MAOI to knock out those enzymes that destroy the tryptamines, more of the MAOI just leads to toxic effects. After that MAOI = Enzyme level is reached, swiy can take whatever dose of tryptamines swiy is comfortable with. Don't need any more of the MAOI!

[Gradient]

I found this gas chromatographic analysis of the contents of DMT, Harmine, Harmaline, and Tetradydroharmine in mg/mL across several samples of ayahuasca, and thought it might contribute to the basics thread.

Notably, the article highlights the variability in levels of the four compounds between samples of ayahuasca brews; the researchers attribute this variability to differences in preparation. Therefore, one might consider the products of the specific method of preparation employed.

The article suggests a synthesis for each of the four compounds, as well as compares levels of the four compounds found in Peruvian and Brazilian preparations.

The contents of DMT between the 8 different samples of ayauasca ranged from .31 mg/mL to .73 mg/mL.

[stinky_plant]

SWIM thought 28g would be high, and isn't MHRB active without an MAOI?

[Salvinorin A]

Originally Posted by stinky_plant

SWIM thought 28g would be high, and isn't MHRB active without an MAOI?

No, MHRB only has DMT in it (well, it has other stuff....but DMT is the only thing that swiy should be concerned with). SWIY must have an maoi for the dmt to work...there are no maois in MHRB that will get its DMT to work.

[stinky_plant]

Traditionally though, MHRB is used without the ayahuasca vine. Aren't they're phytoindoles or something in the MHRB?

[Motumba]

Originally Posted by stinky_plant

Traditionally though, MHRB is used without the ayahuasca vine. Aren't they're phytoindoles or something in the MHRB?

8-10 grams plus, cold water soak in ph4-5 for a week will give of what one is looking for' Jurema' not the punch from the spice though you get if you inhibit the mao'~
Heavy tanins also'

Ez now'~

Mo'~

[TheGrassIsGreener]

if one had access to crystalline Dmt, would it be worth it to just consume that and some rue in capsules? How much pure Dmt is recomended?

[endlessnes]

it makes you trip, if thats what you´re asking

SWIM already tried it a few times and had very good experiences..

Start slow.. 50-100mg max.. most people report 100-150 being a good dose, but there are some people that even 50mg orally is already too much.. SWIM already took up to 200mg pure white freebase dmt with rue, and had a very strong but great trip! So taking in account these personal differences, start at the bottom and if it doesnt work, take more later or some other time

I dont recommend taking rue in capsules.. boiling and filtering 3x is better, as it removes loads of more nasty stuff you would be consuming together with the harmalas, if you just swallow it all in capsules

[Motumba]

Um' The Rue you used must of been duff'

3 grams is way more than enough for inhibition' you would have had strobing in a dim lit room' a high sparkly effect' also quite a bit of nausia'

It can be extremely dangerious to over do it with Rue'

Safe journeys folks

Bliss

[ElectroStep]

Swim:

Really? The vender I got it from was quite well regard and recomened to me several times, I've had no problem with their other stuff.

Will it still work as a MAOI for an ayahuasca brew?

ElectroStep added 1 Minutes and 13 Seconds later...

Swim: should also add I didn't start off with 5g. Start with 2.5 then worked up when I wasn't feeling anything.

[Motumba]

2-3 grams for inhibition of maoi~

You should feel the Rue within an hour of ingestion' a fuzzyness' a slight wistle in the head' some strobing at the 2 hour mark' works great as an anti-depresant' heavy nausia unless you boil and drink' even then Rue is rough stuff' especialy without a light plant to give you strenght'
High doses of Rue can be dangerious'
Rue is in no way as forgiving as the vine' it also contains a different combo of alkaloids than the vine' even though they are Harmala/ like alkaloids (memory is unable to serve' at this time' to give you the difference' "Goodle it")

Ez

Syrian Rue : harmine, harmaline and tetra-hydro-harman


QUOTE From TIHKAL: (note below that 100mg harmaline is equivalent to about 200mg harmine hcl, also harmine is the major component of caapi, not harmaline which is only found in trace amounts):
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(with 100 mg harmaline, 120 mg DMT [10 min]) "It was not until 80 minutes into the experiment that it became clear that CNS effects were occurring. Initially this was felt as clarity of detail of everything around me followed by slight time distortion. There was no loss of reality but closed eye imagery developed rapidly, later becoming present even with eyes open even though less intense. Images were initially very colorful consisting of sheets of patterns infinitely repeated with some gentle waviness, somewhat like looking through a kaleidoscope. Deliberate shifting of attention was possible at all times and although gait was mildly affected it was possible to perform any given task with concentration. There was no loss of identity or reality. Pupillary movements did not change the area of focus of my 'sight', which was surprising. Images could be willfully dismissed as desired with eyes open. Music became another world with headphones on, and 'Hearts of Space' albums easily became voyages which could be interrupted at any desired point with eyes opening. The effects began to recede at the two and a half hour point. The bright colors and patterns had shifted to less intense scenery in a calm peaceful way. At no time was there any noticeable amphetamine jaw-clenching, hyperactivity, or restlessness. The entire episode had ended at the four hour point leaving an intense feeling of happiness and amazement. Sleep was easy at five hours, and yet for the subsequent 30 hours my concentration was noticeably impaired. There were no motor problems or incoordination, yet short-term memory was significantly disrupted, requiring deliberate concentration on minor things. At 38 hours my mental condition seemed back to normal. The only criticism I might make of this experience was that there seemed to be none of the insight that I had experienced with TMA-2. This seems, however, to be a very psychologically safe experience for almost anyone and was very enjoyable."
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QUOTE from Jonathan Ott 'Pharmacotheon':
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Accordingly, in EXPERIMENT 10, I ingested a capsule containing 30 mg DMT free-base plus 94 mg harmine HCL (=80 mg base; i.o mg/kg). The effect was similar to that of the previous experiment. Though more intense, it still fell short of the stronger effect 30 mg DMT had given when accompanied by extracts of 4 g harmel seeds. I increased the dose again, to 117 mg harmine hydrochloride (=100 mg harmine base; 1.25 mg/kg) with the standard 30 mg DMT base. This EXPERIMENT n again led to a threshold effect of DMT, still falling short of the effect of 30 mg combined with extracts of 4 g of harmel seeds.

For EXPERIMENT 12, I increased the quantity of harmine hydrochloride to 141 mg (=120 mg base; 1.5 mg/kg), and ingested this along with 35 mg DMT free-base (0.44 mg/kg). By 45 minutes after ingestion, it was obvious the dose was psychoptic, and I experienced a distinct DMT effect building to a peak at 1:05 after ingestion and maintaining a plateau until 1:50, with the effects largely dissipated by 3 hours after ingestion. This experience was of comparable intensity to EXPERIMENT 6 involving ingestion of a similar amount of DMT (30 mg; 0.38 mg/kg) with extract of 4 g of harmel seeds, and we may conclude that 120 mg of harmine (1.5 mg/kg) will effect sufficient in vivo MAO-inhibition to render DMT active orally with a longer duration and about half the potency of inhaled DMT vapor.

To confirm these results, I decided to make another experiment with the harmine/DMT combinations, slightly increasing the amounts of both compounds. Accordingly, I prepared a capsule containing 188 mg harmine hydrochloride (=160 mg harmine base; 2.0 mg/kg) and 40 mg DMT base (0.5 mg/kg).

This capsule was ingested in EXPERIMENT 13 and indeed provoked a proportionally stronger DMT effect with the first effects felt in 20 minutes, building to a peak by 1:30 after ingestion with a plateau until 2:40, and clearly diminishing effects at 3:00 after ingestion. By 4:00 after ingestion there were no effects, nor after-effects. All in all, the experience was quite pleasant and similar to EXPERIMENT 3 in Ecuador with about 50 leaves of DMT-containing Psychotria viridis per dose, 'though somewhat less potent. A control EXPERIMENT 14 with 141 mg harmine HCL (=120 mg base; 1.5 mg/kg) without DMT evoked no perceptible effects, proving definitively that the visionary effects of the "ayahuasca capsules" were a result of DMT rendered orally active by simultaneous ingestion of an MAO-inhibitor.
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Here is a report from Jonathan Ott where he mentions seeing colored patterns with eyes open as well as closed (from 'Pharmacotheon'):
Later experiments were done with pure harmine hcl and 30, 35, and 40mg dmt.
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I next experimented with an extract of 4 grams harmel seeds (80-280 mg B-carbolines) to which 30mg isolated DMT free-base was added. This EXPERIMENT 6 produced distinct visionary effects of DMT commencing 1:10 after ingestion and building to a peak in 5 minutes, with a 45 minute plateau (to 2:00 after ingestion), followed by another hour of distinct, 'though diminishing, DMT effects consisting of colored patterns with eyes opened and closed, exhilaration and stimulation alloyed with the sedative effect of the harmel seeds, which caused me to yawn repeatedly. The orally-active DMT was less potent than smoked DMT, perhaps half as potent.

Accordingly, since I found the effect of the harmel seeds to be disagreeable, and wished to establish the minimum dose of B-carbolines needed to render DMT orally active, I extracted harmine from Peganum harmala seeds, and purified it as the hydrochloriede salt (melting point 262 degrees C), for further experiments.
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Jonathan mentions that his 4 gram harmel seed with 30mg dmt free base experiment 6 above had the same intensity as his experiment 12 where he used 141 mg harmine hcl with 35 mg dmt free base.

[jwrobel0398]

I was wondering if anyone has made a tincture using caapi and chacruna instead of using the, "boiling down" process as I believe this may alleviate the need to suffer through the, "purge."

If one does not actually swallow or ingest the mixture and instead absorbs it using a tincture I believe this could be a much more accomodating way to enjoy and/or experience the same effects.

If anyone has any comments or suggestions I would be most happy to hear from them in regard to this matter.

John