My Opionions on SSRI's and the pharma industry

[DeeZee]

This is not a reply to any specific post, but more a general oppinion on the subject..




I would seriously recommend to anyone being treated or considering treatment with SSRI's or other antidepressants, to do some googling, and find out some hidden truths about these drugs.

There are so many people, who's lives have been ruined by SSRI's, while the manufacturers pretend it isn't true.

You might also want to check out a documentary called "Generation RX", which deals with treating children for ADHD for no good reason as well as with the serious destructive "side" effects of modern SSRIs.


I am not a doctor, nor a pharmacist, my GF of 10 years was a pharmacist, and it is true, that they sometimes know more than doctors themselves, when it comes to how drugs work. Also, my mother works in a medical institution, and i get to hear many interesting stories from her as well.

Doctors rarelly even look into the drugs they prescribe. Instead, they are continuously bombarded with propaganda from the representatives of pharmaceutical companies, who visit doctors individually, bring them samples of their medicine and tell them all the good things about it. On top of that, doctors are paid to go to seminars organised by these very same pharmaceutical manufacturers, to be convinced into the wonderful effects of new drugs.


It's easy for a doctor to simply take the things they are told there for granted. They assume other scientists must have done their research before spreading their conclusions. They don't even consider the possibility, that the drug-aprooval agencies, or rather the doctors, who work for them (FDA and equivalents from other countries) are pretty much bribed into submission. So much, that they keep supporting drugs, even after extremelly negative effects are exposed.


SSRIs and other antidepresants and antipsychotics are based on the presumption, that the problems are caused by chemical imbalances in the patient's brain, and.
But i heard a psychiatrist say, that the only neuro-chemical imbalances known to exist in mental patients are a result of them being treated with anti-depressants and/or antipsychotics....

Unfortunatelly, such doctors, who actually take an interest in the matter, and research it properly, instead of taking propaganda for granted, are in the minority.



I don't want to spread some conspiracy theories, but i've known many people treated with antidepressants and antipsychotics, i've seen them change during the course of the treatment, and it wasn't something i would wish on anyone. I have yet to see one, who would be trully happy as a result of such treatment.


And while i had very severe depression problems myself many years ago, i would never take any kind of drugs approoved for the treatment thereof...

Instead, i spent many years (ever since i was 16) analyzing myself in depth, trying (and succeeding) to find the causes for my issues, and eliminating them one by one, with a lot of hard work and patience. It became a way of life for me, to analyze myself in all the situations i was in, to gain an understanding of how my mind works and why, and how to make it stop doing the things that hurt me.

It took a very long time, but i managed to completelly rewrite my old programming, and came out a completelly different person, much happier than ever before. But still not completelly happy and problem-free.

But the biggest change came from me.. Wait no, that was SWIM - the biggest change came from SWIM taking MDMA and then facing his fears. For example going out to parties. For SWIM, who had very bad sociophobia even after eliminating many other problems, going out among other people was horribly scary by itself. Never mind going to a party and actually dancing there - that was unimaginable and completelly impossible in SWIM's mind.. SWIM was WAY too messed up to even consider that as a possibility.


But MDMA helped him get over these problems slowly, step by step, and eventually get rid of them completelly. It was extremelly liberating for SWIM, when he could finally go out and enjoy himself, and even dance, without constantly thinking what others must thing of him..

And the most impressive thing was, that the results of this didn't only last while under the influence, but were permanent instead! Every experience would bring SWIM one step closer, to becoming a happy person. And with every new experience the old depression was becoming a thing of the past.

I should add at this point, that SWIM was always extremelly careful, when doing this, and kept the use low, with long intervals in between. But the changes SWIM achieved this way were all, without exception, extremelly positive for him, and changed his life for the better....


Of course the previous experience in self-analysis and problem solving helped a lot with this process. SWIM was able to do on himself what an army of psychologists and psychiatrists could not achieve in a lifetime, even before he ever tried any drugs. And later with MDMA he was able to do it all much faster and achieve things he never even thought possible!


SWIM claims, that those experiences saved his life. They helped him learn to enjoy life, without all the fears and low self esteem, that plagued him before that. Just remembering a happy experience from a party would make SWIM feel very good and happy and it was all extremelly liberating.


Now please don't get me wrong. SWIM is NOT saying, that using MDMA and going to parties will cure anyone's depression! In fact it can do quite the opposite! In SWIM's case, it was a combination of a lot of (already succesful) practice in self-therapy and using MDMA as a tool, to purposefully face SWIM's worst fears head on, that ultimatelly changed SWIM's life.


But if you look at MAPS and similar organisations all over the world, which are trying to proove the therapeutic uses of MDMA and similar substances, when used under the guidance of a proffessional therapist, you will see, that they are achieving pretty much the same things as SWIM did himself. Not to mention all the therapists, that did this before MDMA became illegal, and the few, that continued afterwards, even with the danger of going to jail - but while doing so, they cured thousands of people! They changed their lives for the better, and with permanent results. Again, it was a result of therapy, with MDMA just a helpful tool, so the patients could open themselves up, and see and understand their own issues without fear or judgement, not a magical result of the drug itself! Again, using MDMA alone and just for fun is not likely do anything beneficial for you in the long term, and could even make things worse, especially if you do it too often!


Obviously, even the best method will not help in all cases. Sometimes a person can be messed up to the point, where they simply won't let any helpful changes to occur. Instead, they lock up, and defend their damaged self-image. Explaining this in detail would take too long. But in most cases, these therapies were extremelly succesful in changing patient's lives for the better.




Taking a drug every day or several times per day, to cure your depression..
How can continuously altering the brains natural functions be a good thing? Taking a mind altering drug every day for years? Well, it's good for the pharmaceutical manufacturers, that's for sure...


If on the other hand, there was a medicine, a patient would only have to take a couple of times (combined with therapy)... Well, there is not a lot of money to be made from pills like that.... That's why organisations such as MAPS are the only ones supporting and funding research of this type.. Pharmaceutical manufacturers only support the kind of research, that will bring them profit, in some cases regardless of if it helps the patients or not. There are in fact prooven cases of where the results of drug trials were altered and the statistics "massaged", to make a drug appear to work better than placebo. Altho the manufacturers pretend it never happened and just ignore it.


I read about Prozac trials, where it was found, that placebo would help 30% of all depression suffering patients, while Prozac would help 33% (or so - this is from memory, from years ago).. So even if those 3% are real non-manipulated results, i fail to see how Prozac is not only no better, but actually worse, than placebo, since unlike placebo it actually does affect the brain in a very specific way, causing a permanent neurochemical imbalance - an excess of serotonin levels.

These neurotransmitters are supposed to motivate and reward us when we do something that is good for ourselves. But if a drug is keeping the levels of the neurotransmitters constant all the time, then what motivation does one have to do anything at all?

I've had people taking SSRIs tell me, that they simply don't feel like doing anything at all. Even just getting out of bed in the morning can seem pointless to them. Some would lose all motivation completelly. Why do anything, if you don't get a reward for it?

I mean, your serotonin levels may be higher than they would be even during a "reward-state", but since they never change, your brain gets used to this level, and compensates for it, by becoming less sensitive. In the beginning you might feel better from all the extra serotoning, but in the end you don't feel better, you just don't care anymore, since the levels are not changing, they are a "flatline".. In the worst cases, you don't care about anything anymore..

In the worst of the worst cases you then take a shotgun and kill your entire family before blowing your head off (has happened to people taking Prozac!) - there have been lawsuits because of horrible events such as these, and the drug manufacturers settled (in millions of dollars), to keep it quiet, if i remember correctly (it was years ago when i was looking into this - i started my research believing that SSRI's help, i just wanted to find out more about HOW they help, but found everything but instead)...

Not to mention the fact, that withdrawals from some SSRIs can be worse than withdrawals from heroin!



Some people may feel better and stop being depressed for good, when taking antidepressants, but so do some (almost the same number) of the people taking a placebo. The mind is a powerful thing. Believing somehing would make you feel better can sometimes make you feel better, be it an antidepressant or a placebo. Placebos sometimes even help with serious physical health problems, but when it comes to how you feel - a very subjective thing - it is much easier for a Placebo to work...


People and especially doctors should wonder how many of SSRI's positive effects actually come from the placebo effect only.. When the difference is as small as 30 vs 33% - small enough to be a statistical error, it's hard to see any benefits at all.. But since SSRI's are psychoative drugs, the change in the feeling their effects bring should make some people think they are helping, if nothing else.




P.S. As i mentioned before, this is just SWIM's oppinion, SWIM is not a doctor or a pharmacist, and he can only speak for himself.


But MAPS is qualified to speak for others in this regard and hopefully soon also to give medical advice and help as well.... I just hope that they manage to get all the approovals they need for their studies, because they could help a lot of people, who percieve life as a constant suffering.


You can read the reports of a few lucky people, who managed to get involved in some of their studies, and there is a book (The Secret Chief) about a therapist, who continued such therapy in secret even after MDMA became illegal.


P.P.S. I want to emphasise, that neither I nor SWIM are trying to suggest anyone should use MDMA for their depression! Quite the opposite is true. SWIM and I just wanted to say that we support, and believe in, the efforts of organisations such as MAPS, in large part, due to positive personal experience derived from a similar approach.
Also, that neither SWIM or I believe in SSRIs being good for mental health.

But again, neither of us is a doctor, and we could be completelly mistaken or even delusional..

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting point well thought out

[chibi curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by DeeZee

Taking a drug every day or several times per day, to cure your depression..
How can continuously altering the brains natural functions be a good thing?

Well, if your brain's natural functions are making you suicidal, then yes, altering these functions would be a very good thing. Same way that someone with an arrhythmia would want to alter the way their heart works and someone with diabetes would want to alter the way their pancreas works.

Your pharmacist friend should know that MDMA is in fact an antidepressant and works in some of the same ways as fluoxetine, except that MDMA in recreational doses is overwhelming the brain with serotonin and fluoxetine alters serotonin reuptake in more subtle amounts.

Reputation Comments on this post:

informative response

[Princess]

SWIM has had anxiety disorder since SWIM was 3 years old. SWIM started medication at 7 years old and every day took different combinations of antidepressants, antipsychotics, stimulants, amphetamines, mood stabolizers and benzodiazepines for 14 years. SWIM got off of them at age 20. SWIM is 21 and has been off of them for over a year. When SWIM stopped the other drugs, SWIM was fine but stopping the SNRI got SWIM messed up. SWIM was able to be normal during all those years and didn't even notice the anxiety or worrying at all, but once stopping it, SWIM was anxious and worrying about SWIM's everyday problems all the time. SWIM exercises every day, does 65 minutes of treadmill every day and that doesn't help at all. SWIM's life got messed up being off medications. SWIM eventually used amphetamines and stimulants to induce euphoria to make SWIM's anxiety go away. When SWIM wasn't on a mind altering substance, SWIM was constant worrying. Worrying about relationship problems, worrying about things, worrying all day long about everything SWIM said or did or might have done that could have messed things up. SWIM really messed up SWIM's lif in the year SWIM was off meds.

The thing is, SWIM has been on these meds since 7 years old and took them every day. SWIM was put on different combinations of meds. SWIM was only on antipsychotics for a short time, crazy psychiatrists would add in antipsychotics even though they were not approved for use in children with anxiety disorders and, during those times, SWIM did not have bad anxiety, the antipsychotics were awful, however, SWIM was only on the antipsychotics for a short time compared to the SSRIs, SNRIs, stimulants and amphetmaines, which SWIM took every day since 7 years old. SWIM wonders if SWIM is chemically addicted to these chemicals and that the reason SWIM's worrying got so bad is because SWIM is dependant on having these chmicals and SWIM will have to be on these chemicals forever, or is it that these chemicals helped so much?

[chibi curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Princess

SWIM has had anxiety disorder since SWIM was 3 years old.

....How in Hippocrates' name does one diagnose anxiety disorder in a 3 year old?!

SWIM started medication at 7 years old and every day took different combinations of antidepressants, antipsychotics, stimulants, amphetamines, mood stabolizers and benzodiazepines for 14 years.

My god, amphetamines for anxiety is like atropine for dry mouth. Fail.

When SWIM stopped the other drugs, SWIM was fine but stopping the SNRI got SWIM messed up.

Did SWIY try just taking the SNRI?

SWIM wonders if SWIM is chemically addicted to these chemicals and that the reason SWIM's worrying got so bad is because SWIM is dependant on having these chmicals and SWIM will have to be on these chemicals forever, or is it that these chemicals helped so much?

Well, since there's no permanent cure for endogenous anxiety, anyone with it will either be in therapy for a long time--perhaps not until they die, but for a while--and/or have to take medication for it. If someone took benzodiazepines inappropriately, then the rebound anxiety would be worse, but as far as dependency in mental illness, it's like a diabetic taking insulin. They're dependent on it because the problem never goes away.

[Princess]

SWIM had Anxiety with ADD, so SWIM was on combinations of meds for both. When SWIM got off all meds over a year ago, SWIM used amphetamines and stimulants recreationally becauise the euphoria stopped SWIM's worrying. SWIM's problem is more of worrying, rather than physical anxiety and the high from the amphetamiens would put SWIM in such a positive mood that all the worrying about problems would go away and turn into positive thoughts. Worries about relationship problems, all sorts of regular problems would just be blown out of proportion because of the anxiety, and the amphetamine/stimulant high would take away all of the worries and make it feel all happy, everything is going to be alright euphoria. It would change all of SWIM's worries about SWIM's problems into positive thoughts, so the euphoria from ampehtamines and sitmulants is what helped SWIM best when used recreationally, rather than the prescription verions with the other meds. Ever since SWIM was 3 years old, SWIM was just very emotional and got attached very easily, SWIM would cry a lot and more stuff and at 3 years old SWIM started therapy and that's how it got started.