Iboga and quitting...

[crazypumpkin]

SWIM recently read about the healing properties of Iboga and was thinking about ordering some. Has anyone ever done this? SWIM would be getting the root bark and not the more potent ibogaine. So that being considered how much should one take in a dose and what should one expect? Does it work?

[G_nome]

My monkey watched a really good and interesting documentary the other night on ibogaine and it's use in treating heroin addicts. I'd link ye but im not sure if i'm allowed to post a link to a google vids page, anyone know if this is allowed?

But aye, it's best that swiy doesn't do ibogaine alone, get someone sober to watch swiy.
My monkey also thinks swiy needs to have their heart rate monitered throughout the experience.
And as for dosage, it all depends on swiyour weight, 10–20 mg/kg.
My monkey is very eager to try this soon, he just needs to find a sitter.
And yes, it works!
No nightmarish withdrawals, just a 36 hour trip. But apparently it only works if swiy really wants to quit using drugs.
It's a very powerful hallucinogen, and there has been deaths from it's use, but not many.
So, my monkey would advise swiy to just read up on ibogaine a bit more, before just going ahead and ordering some. Just so swiy knows what to expect an that.

[Dickon]

crazypumpkin,

The search engine is your friend! There is absolutely oodles of information about iboga and ibogaine on this site. May I suggest you start out by reading the relevant part (the appendix) of the first post on this thread: A how-to guide to opiate detoxification. One important thing: you'd be advised to use ibogaine and not the root bark. The rootbark contains a whole host of other alkaloids, and the ibogaine content will be unknown. It is a far more dangerous undertaking, statistically speaking, than taking ibogaine, itself a potentially dangerous, even fatal, endeavour.

May I recommend getting a physical from a doctor or at the very least having your heart checked out. Also, do a test dose about 24 hours before taking the main dose. Ideally ibogaine should be taken in a clinical setting; it is dangerous, with the risk of death being about 1 in 300.

Please read the information in the post linked-to above. There is a link in that post to another thread with an awful lot of information about ibogaine.

It's all here! Stay safe and don't rush into this without doing research. It may seem like a "miracle cure" but it isn't. At the very best it can interrupt the mechanism of addiction for a space so that you have the opportunity to address the issues that underly the addiction. The relapse rate at 3 or 6 months post treatment is high, so make sure you have a post-treatment stategy in place.

Best of luck

Dickon

[OhCasey]

Wow Dickon were did you get that number? That number seems a little high to me most likely that statistic is a little off base and contains cases were ibogaine or iboga was improperly used or cases where people used other drugs during or after the administration of ibogaine. I personally believe that number isnt accurate. Also Dickon I dont agree that Iboga bark is far more dangerous in fact I'd say its probably safer. It is a larger amount material which makes it harder to take too large of a dose, it also makes one purge more since its harsher on ones stomach. Youre right about it containing more than just Ibogaine though and a lot of people seem to think that the other alkaloids play an important role in the overall healing experience.

It should be said though that anyone looking into ibogaine or iboga needs to read anything and everything they can on the subject. With substances like iboga the more knowledge someone has the better the chance of a successful experience. Someone who was using Ibogaine would need a sitter and not the nieghbor or another addict but someone whos willing to read and learn about iboga before hand someone who has some common sense and knows when a doctor should be called. The largest risk with Iboga seems to be heart problems so I'd suggest a full check up with emphasis on swiy's heart. The best case scenario is to use ibogaine in a clinical scenario but I understand that is not always possible for some.

To answer crazypumpkin's question The best way to use iboga if one cant get to a clinic that uses ibogaine seems to be an extraction of the iboga root. Most use alcohol and theres actually a couple posted on DF just search for them. Iboga root bark is known to have about 2-6% ibogaine. Ive read that the clinical dosage is somewhere between 16-45 grams of regular iboga root bark. Thats a big range so becareful.

The best advice I can give about Iboga is do a lot of research and give this plant the respect it deserves. Remember kids knowledge is power.

[crazypumpkin]

Thank you guys very much. I am in the process of checking out all the info you posted. In terms of ibogaine, I agree that seems like the best way to go...but it seems like ibogaine is not allowed in the US. The best way to go about going through with such a treatment is to travel to a clinic in Mexico. SWIM is not sure if this is against the forum guidelines to ask, but is there a better, more practical way to go about adminidering ibogaine for someone who lives in the US?

[Dickon]

OhCasey, The number and the relative safety of ibogaine cf root bark is from an article on ibogaine that I used as the appendix to the "how to detox thread" mentioned above. The reference is given. It seemed to me very well written and my intuition is that the author knew what he was on about. Obviously statistics are hard to verify. Conversely, may I a what makes you say that you think the number is too high and that iboga root bark is at least as safe as ibogaine?

[OhCasey]

The main reason that I think the root bark is safer than ibogaine is from everything I've read. It also makes sense to me that this plant in its natural form would be better for someone than isolated ibogaine hydrochloride from a lab. People have been using large amounts of iboga root bark for thousands of years with relative safety. This paragraph from this paper on ibogaine and iboga explains my thoughts on the subject fairly well "The second option available, using Iboga extract seems to be the best option available at present: it has none of the drawbacks of Ibogaine HCI, which may be

very effective, but is very hard on the body and requires a higher degree of
medical skill from those administering it. Among the severe effects of HCI are
respiratory problems, heart problems and kidney or liver problems. I am
presuming that all of the recorded deaths to date occurred as a result of the
administration of HCI. One other problem that has been mentioned by suppliers
of the basic materials for extract production is that toxic plants can pollute the
quality of both the extract, for this reason they agree that leaves, wood and fruit
or other identifying material must be supplied with the root, so that the source
material is certifiable.
Iboga extraction has benefits that make it ideal for addiction therapy, because
the substance containing all the plant alkaloids, not only HCI, and it is widely
presumed by those working with medicinal plants that the combination of
chemicals that make up the plants efficacy should be extracted, not only the
single purified and identifiable chemical that we believe is solely responsible for

breaking off addiction.
" Heres a link to the PDF http://www.a-keys.nl/ayahuasca/publi...ogatherapy.pdf

[Gradient]

I don't mean to be argumentative at all here, but this is the first time I've read anything suggesting that isolated Ibogaine/Noribogaine is 'harder on the body' than a full-spectrum extract, and I'm not convinced by the data presented. Daniel
Waterman, the author of the above-cited source, didn't provide any references for his work whatsoever - nor does he provide any information on himself. It's completely erroneous statements like this one that make me feel like this guy might've wanted to do a bit more research before publishing:

I am presuming that all of the recorded deaths to date occurred as a result of the administration of HCl.

People have died from both full-spectrum extracts and isolations of Ibogaine. Check out the Wiki under dangers. Also, poorly worded statements like this one make me feel like this wasn't likely peer-reviewed:

One other problem that has been mentioned by suppliers of the basic materials for extract production is that toxic plants can pollute the quality of both the extract, for this reason they agree that leaves, wood and fruit or other identifying material must be supplied...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing he's suggesting that one might be getting some other kind of toxic root, and so you might want some other identifying characteristics? How does the presence of a fruit guarantee that the root contains any Ibogaine whatsoever? Either way, toxic-plants shouldn't be kept in the same room as T. Iboga. They should be kept in the toxic-plants room .

Another problem with this article is that he directly contradicts himself logically.

It is not possible to give accurate dosages for the various Iboga extracts...Ideally a high dose is administered; yet again this may be different from person to person according to body weight. There is a way to compare patients according to body weight and fat to muscle ratio that determines the persons true weight, since fat may or may not absorb Iboga.

If you can't accurately dose something, then you can't effectively treat multiple individuals with it - that's dangerous. Therefore, a full-spectrum extract would certainly be less desirable than an isolated sample of Ibogaine/Noribogaine. This is why isolated extracts are generated; it's established that Ibogaine/Noribogaine posses anti-addictive properties, while the activities of the other alkaloids present aren't currently elucidated. Isolating Ibogaine removes variables that may contribute to unanticipated side-effects or fatalities. It's well known that Noribogaine binds to fatty adipose tissues, and is slowly released - thereby contributing to the characteristically long effects of the compound. So he's wrong there, again.

Finally, Tabernanthe Iboga isn't the only Ibogaine-containing plant on the planet; there are a myriad of different plants expressing different proportions of alkaloids, or even altogether distinct compounds, than T. Iboga. For example, would a full-spectrum extract of Voacanga Africana be as effective as T. Iboga?

After a bit of light digging, I found some personal information on Mr. Waterman:

Daniel Waterman has a Masters Degree in Gold & Silversmithing, and a BA in Graphic Arts & Design from St. Joost Academy of Arts in Breda, Holland. Daniel has over fifteen years of experience working with Ayahuasca and other entheogens, and has practiced independently for over seven years.

While he may indeed be quite knowledgeable and a reasonable source of information, I personally wouldn't consider his word to be definitive in characterizing the use of Iboga or Ibogaine. Remember to always remain skeptical of any source of information. Peer-reviewed journals are generally terrific filters of poorly-researched information, since jobs are at stake when misinformation is propagated.

[OhCasey]

Well actually something that seems to come up quite frequently is the danger of the isolated ibogaine vs extracts of the root material and I tend to side with the side that thinks the more natural route is the better one. It seems from what I read that most experts agree with me but this is my opinion from reading as much as I can about Iboga. The link I posted isnt supposed to be the end all be all about the subject Its just one experts opinion on Iboga and honestly it was the first thing that popped up on google. I would expect that others do the research needed when using this plant or drug. Iboga is all about learning and I can sit here and post links that back up my opinion on the subject all day but really iboga hasnt had the amount of research needed to be certain on these subjects so honestly no one can determine with any certainty the amount of deaths from ibogaine or the safety of iboga VS ibogaine. We can quote papers and you can pick holes in them as long as you want but that guy clearly has a lot of experience in the field and more knowledge on the subject than you or I do. That said he clearly is coming from one point of view and I would take what he says with a grain of salt just like anyone else. To address the issue of dosing youre right iboga root doesnt always contain the same amount of ibogaine alkaloids its usually between 2-6% that means that one should take extra care when calculating ones dose and I'd suggest always being on the low side for cautions sake but that doesnt mean its more dangerous. Especially since the deaths are almost never overdoses they are usually a result of pre existing heart conditions or drug use during or after treatment. Well actually the effects of ibogaine arent exactly clearly and totally elucidated. While there are other alkaloids that do work on the cns and are thought to help during the trip like Ibogamine, noribogaine and ibogaline just to name a few. Theres first person experience reports posted by members (of others experiences of course) on this site that say they believe that the iboga extract is safer and better than ibogaine but again its just personal opinions. There are other plants with ibogaine as an alkaloid but far more material is needed to extract the ibogaine and its not present in as high quanities. I would hope that anyone thinking about using iboga do the research and not be persuaded to not use the plant based on the posts in this thread. Natural is better but hey thats just my opinion.

[crazypumpkin]

I see...well if I were to take the option of obtaining the bark(as it seems the only way I can legally purchase it over in internet), how many grams should I purchase? I hear 16 is the minimum recommended dosage, but for some reason the site sells this bark in units of 2 grams ($25). I'm just confused as to why a site would sell 2g of this bark if the minimum amount is 16 grams. am I missing something?

[Dickon]

"Natural is better" - maybe when it comes to breasts, but when it comes to safety profiles or loads on the body, naturalness has nothing to do with it. I'd say Gradient's post sums up many of the objections to your source OhCasey. I'd also say intuitively it seems unlikely that iboga is safer than ibogaine, unless of course one's caution about the strength meant one underdosed on it. If ibogaine is X, iboga is X+Y, so unless Y contains something that makes X safer there is every reason to suspect X+Y is at best no safer than X.

D