In Search of The Ultimate (Calling All Psychonauts)

[Saturn]

I am researching a way to liberate myself, even for a moment, from this Bardo. I wish for the ultimate ureality, the ultimate most psycho-spiritual vision quest. I no longer care about a fear of insanity I once had. I am prepared to go insane or die. In brief, I wish to ask of those "shamans" who frequent these boards as to what combonation of hallucinogens will create "The Ultimate Mystical Journey". So far, this is my formula. See if you can improve on or change it to create something you feel is induces more powerful of an experience:

M
§ 0.6g Salvia divinorum leaf
§ 105mg Harmaline
§ 45mg N,N-dimethyltryptamine
§ 10mg 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
§ 8.5mg Phencyclidine
§ 3.9mg Atropine
§ 0.7mg Scopolamine

I await all of your input my friends.

- ♄

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Be more aware not to self incriminate as this is a violation of site rules.
	please use descriptive thread titles. 0 point rating.

[podge]

Originally Posted by Saturn

I am researching a way to liberate myself, even for a moment, from this Bardo. I wish for the ultimate ureality, the ultimate most psycho-spiritual vision quest.

I can understand swiys desire, but dont think swiy is going about it the right way.

Originally Posted by Saturn

I no longer care about a fear of insanity I once had. I am prepared to go insane or die.

You see swiy very well might actually go insane and/or die without experiencing the ultimate reality in this life especially with the combo of drugs listed.... if swiy wants answers and not an early exit of this life then its better swiy doesnt go insane or die.

Originally Posted by Saturn

In brief, I wish to ask of those "shamans" who frequent these boards as to what combonation of hallucinogens will create "The Ultimate Mystical Journey". So far, this is my formula. See if you can improve on or change it to create something you feel is induces more powerful of an experience:

I think this is where swim really disagrees with swiys methods.... he doesnt always equate "power/intensity" with "issues relating to enightenment/introspective development".... much of the time too much chemical intake can take away from any real personal breakthroughs and add to the "silly" element of a drug experience.

Originally Posted by Saturn

M
§ 0.6g Salvia divinorum leaf
§ 105mg Harmaline
§ 45mg N,N-dimethyltryptamine
§ 10mg 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
§ 8.5mg Phencyclidine
§ 3.9mg Atropine
§ 0.7mg Scopolamine

I know all the doses are toned down a bit but this combo is likely to just knock a swimmer out and achieve the afore mentioned death/insanity...

DMT , Salvinorum A, 5 meo-Dmt, MAOIs, PCP, Delerients ... sounds like a recipe for disater. Each of the substances are able to bamboozle a swimmer beyond comprehension on their own at higher doses, not to mention combined with MAOIs. Swim doubts such a venture will pay off.

Swim thinks if a swimmer wants to go deep in a beneficial way without actually going overboard in a bad way they should use controlled doses of more complimantary drugs.... LSD or Mescaline with Ketamine, Philosophers stones truffles with MDMA , Ibogaine with Nitrous Oxide .... or at least things to this effect.... yes it seems tame in comparison to the above list but its likely to provide potentially beneficial insights in my swimmers book.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	well said- no real need for my reply now ;-)
	Good and logical post.
	well explained !

[coelho]

Some drugs (or foods) when taken together with MAOIs (like Harmaline) can produce side effects that may be even fatal. So, great care is needed when creating drug combinations, for avoiding potentially lethal combos. Just mixing them randomly is not a good idea at all...

[trptamene]

What you search does not lie in a coctail, though it could one of severalkeys. Or it could just distract you.

[Saturn]

I realize that MAOIs are dangerous, but with their use tryptamines are empowered even further than their normal capabilities. This is evident in the use of Ayahuasca.

What you search does not lie in a coctail, though it could one of severalkeys. Or it could just distract you.

I like t think of the human brains as, as Terence McKenna described it, a filter of higher reality. Psychoactive substances tear down that filter for a limited amount of time, allowing one to experience different universes.

Saturn added 3 Minutes and 3 Seconds later...

B.T.W. It was SWIM's intention to smoke the aformentioned substances, so as to attain the greatest bioavailability. SWIM decided to combine all types of hallucinogens: psychedelics, deliriants, and dissasociatives along wit MAOI inhibitor.

[polidelaiko]

Wouldnt the delirants make one forget this powerfull (and reckless) trip?
Wouldnt Ketamine be a better option to PCP?
Still, this combo seems like an exageration if you ask me.

[SullyGuy]

Going into any of that, without a strong philosophical background will do SWIY no good. SWIM suggests reading some books / listening to lectures and practicing meditation. Sure, SWIY might obliterate what he feels to be himself for a short time, but that is not what your after. All those substances can only teach SWIY so much...

[Dave_the_stoner]

That mix sounds like something that would likely make someone feel bad rather than good. I would reccomend if one wants to blast off to the moon and having fun while doing so eat a very high dosage of psilocybe mushrooms, not too difficult to aquire, a fatal dose is one that a person is unlikely to eat, and the intoxicant wont be likely harmful (doing stupid things while under the influence is a possibility). Large doses of LSD or mescaline would also be reasonably safe.
Swim can appriciate swiy's desire to blow there mind away, but there are intense alternatives to mixing a coctail of substances together trying to formulate the untimate experience. Life and safety are of top priority, so I would advise having a sober person to supervise swiy on any intense innerspace voyage.

[coelho]

There is also another thing that must be considered when combining different psychedelics. The effect of two psychedelics taken together isnt always the sum of the effects of each one. Sometimes they act like if they were two forces pushing in the same direction, and thus increasing each other effects. But sometimes they act like two forces pushing in opposite directions, and so canceling each other effects. With this large number of different psychedelics swiy intends to take, surely there would be all sorts of interactions between the psychedelics, and they could even cancel each other, leaving swiy sober...

In his book The Essential Psychedelic Guide (available online, just google it. Swim doesnt know if he can post the link here), D.M.Turner describes some combinations where the substances hindered each others effects.

Originally Posted by D.M.Turner

2C-B + Mushrooms is the first psychedelic combination I tried that does not work. (...)

The first time I tried this combination I took 25 mg. of 2C-B and 5 grams of mushrooms. Both of these quantities will produce a trip of decent intensity for most people, but produce only threshold trips for me, due to my high tolerance and familiarity with the experience. In general my experience was one of feeling "dopey" or "drugged," a somewhat dumb and unfocused state of mind. (...)

The second time I tried 2C-B + mushrooms was seven months later. For my second journey I took 50 mg. of 2C-B and 10 grams of mushrooms, doses large enough to do the trick for me. However, the experience produced by taking a sufficient dose was strongly negative. I felt as though a mesh of interference patterns was placed before my awareness, obscuring all thought and perception. It seemed like the 2C-B and mushrooms were trying to alter my consciousness in opposing directions, and they frustrated each other's efforts. I also had a feeling that I was hexed, that there was some force preventing me from venturing into an expanded state of awareness.

This general feeling of confinement and oppression led to negative thoughts and feelings, producing the longest lasting and most unpleasant psychedelic trip I've had in years. It felt like a serious slap in the face, an infusion of the states of mind and reality tunnels that some of life's less fortunate people have to endure.

Always the experimenter, I decided to try Ketamine in the midst of this journey, hoping it might reverse things. Initially the ego death produced by the K released me from what I'd been feeling, but with the return to self-awareness the negativity was spread out into the Ketamine domain.

In his another book Salvinorin: The Psychedelic Essence of Salvia divinorum, (also available online) he describes another combination that went wrong. His description is a bit "poetic", but its instructive nonetheless.

Originally Posted by D.M.Turner

I smoked 30 mg. of DMT in three tokes, followed immediately by 650 mcg. of Salvinorin that I had preloaded in a separate pipe.

The effects were felt almost immediately. The first thing I noticed was a grid of crosshatch patterns. I had perceived something similar when using 2C-B with mushrooms, which I believed to be the result of using two psychedelics that were not compatible with each other. However, in this case the patterns were defined to a much sharper degree, and it seemed apparent that these two substances affect consciousness in differing ways that are not synchronistic when used together. Both the Salvia and DMT entities seemed to have been taken entirely off guard and had not been expecting this confrontation. These entities seemingly paid no attention to me as their attention was entirely fixed on each other. It soon became apparent that the two were going to battle, vying to determine who would have control of my consciousness.

It was like a scene of two Gods battling in a mythological tale. At first it seemed that DMT, with its ability to manifest in spectacular forms displaying its might, power, and ferociousness, would tower up above the Salvia entity and overpower it. But the Salvia entity moves very fast, is extremely maneuverable, and has a silent, stealthy force that will not be denied. Soon the Salvia entity was running circles around, and had interpenetrated the DMT. It was not a pretty scene to watch, but Salvia took the upper hand.

The visions I was seeing while watching this battle were severely distorted, smushed, reversed, and turned sideways. All the favorite creatures of DMT Elf land were put together with the wrong body parts, or body parts in the wrong places. Their normally gaudy outfits had been turned into white and brown plaid shins, and they were wearing brown leather shoes and carrying brown briefcases, Millions of these miserable little creatures were frantically running around as door-to-door salesmen. They were moving perpendicular to everything else on the surface of their planet, as though they were obeying a gravitational force that was at a 90 degree angle from everything in their surroundings.

By the end it seemed that DMT was unhappy and had lost face by being unseated, possibly for the first time. The Salvia entity seemed reasonably comfortable in her ability to deal with DMT. Although she seemed glad that the battle was over, and still very surprised that I had introduced to her something that actually wanted to overpower her, and had made a significant attempt.

Fortunately, neither of these entities seemed extremely upset with me the next time I confronted them. I've recently had some experiences where these two seemed to be working together to make changes in my psyche (although I had used them on separate occasions.) However, I will probably never combine these entheogens again, unless I get a clear message from both of them that this is desired. I also have not used Salvinorin with mushrooms since psilocybin is very closely related to DMT.

So, swim recommend thinking twice (or more) before mixing psychedelics carelessly.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Quite informative post, good point to unpredictable effects of combining psychoactives.
	Brings information about unworthy combinations with reference to it's source.

[riaahacker]

Definitely agree with the other posts, its hard enough trying to figure out the physiological effects and dangers of two drugs combined, but all of those, seems like a very big unknown. Perhaps a heroic dose of mushrooms or something like ketamine + psychedelic like mentioned above would satisfy swiy's needs.

[Spucky]

What is the meaning of "The Ultimate...",
because in reality that means the last and final Curtain before swiny get lost!

Imo. after a long Time together with Drugs swim guess that everything someone mix
with Drugs is just a Instant Trip, no one can reach a higher Step with them!

Why not try a "real enlightenment"?
Or swiny is just lazy?

[SullyGuy]

Originally Posted by Spucky

Or swiny is just lazy?

SWIM should not look at it like work imho If you do what you love, you never have to work a day in your life!

[sgurrman]

Hello, Saturn, are you still with us????

A guy once ate an ice cream that tasted so delicious, he felt he was in Paradise. So blissful was the experience that he decided to eat ten more, on the spot. Did he still have that paradise feeling afterwards? No prizes for the correct answer.

Reputation Comments on this post:

This is an excellent analogy that matches the situation perfectly.

[SunMoon]

Originally Posted by sgurrman

Hello, Saturn, are you still with us????

A guy once ate an ice cream that tasted so delicious, he felt he was in Paradise. So blissful was the experience that he decided to eat ten more, on the spot. Did he still have that paradise feeling afterwards? No prizes for the correct answer.

I liked this post

To the OP SWIM has to say: what exactly do you want? You use what i guess is called in nlp the milton model.

[=SKA=]

SWIM has enjoyed acid greatly and, more importantly, has had alot of spiritual insights about our existance that help him in his quest for Enlightenment; the end of unnececairy suffering caused by the Ego.

SWIM's heard alot of people boast about taking over 7 blotters of acid, but SWIM himself has never done more than 1 and a half blotter. SWIM actually found 1/4th to 1/2th blotter to be most spiritually insightfull.

SWIM has found 1 and a half blotter just too much sensory overload. Caused him to laugh hysterically for hours and have a great, but unintelligable time.

SWIM has found out that, at least for him and many ppl he knows, (WAY)large doses of Entheogens tends towards delerium (especially so with LSD)


Just take it easy and don't assume more is better.

And Saturn, if SWIY's going to ignore our advice against SWIY's cocktail, then at LEAST leave the Harmaline out of the mix.
Something tells SWIM that PCP + MAOI's is a spectaculairly bad idea. And in SWIM's humble opinion; The common fear of Scopolamine/Atropine plants is very very healthy. Avoid it.

SWIM's actually down for quite a bunch of experimentation. SWIM took Mushrooms + acid once and found it to be a wonderfull synergy. SWIM is thinking of infusing 10X fortified Salvia leaves with lots of DMT. And more such experiments.

But what SWIY had in mind is not likely to be worth the risks and likely to not even be remembered... at all. An experience not remembered is just like an experience you never had.

SWIM's rather concerned about SWIY. Let us know wether SWIY has or hasn't done it and if he has done it let him give a sign of life.

[nate81]

Why does one assume that drugs accomplish this goal? Sure, people report amazing experiences under the influence. Were those caused by the drug or was the drug only the spark?

SWIM took a smallish dose of mescaline and had the best spiritual experience of his life. Even at that small of a dose the peak was raw pleasure as SWIM lay motionless listening to music. It was great but not that useful, the greatest insights came when the effects were lower.

Also, it's a near certainty that SWIY would never remember the experience in this life. Since it's probably only a matter of time until SWIY experiences it naturally.

Did SWIY consider the possibility that we are meant to experience our lives behind these insane filters? That those on the other side of reality might be pretty pissed off that SWIY yanked himself out? Since we are ill-equipped to perceive reality in full, perhaps we have to live out enough days before our "graduation". Maybe strapping ourselves to a rocket and blasting into unreality before we are ripened by life will cause us to simply crash back down and reincarnate again.

Is the possibility of death worth the off chance SWIY'll get to have a brief chat with God he'll never remember?

[psychonauts]

that cocktail looks like a harsh recipe for disaster. SWIM suggests to just stick to one at a nice dose, enjoy yourself. No sense is killing your brain for the "ultimate" experience as you call it.

[cra$h]

Saturn, you got it all wrong. The ultimate experience is not derived from a coctail of a buch of powerful hallucenogens but from the inner being. a small does of LSD and meditation can produce much more profound effects compared to an overpowering trip. When a trip is too potent and chaotic, the focus is how can one begin to understand what the hell is going on. Enlightenment comes when YOU are in control. It can happen completely sober too by the way.

Reconsider this reckless decision. The "ultimate" cannot be achived in a matter of minutes either. By the way you sound, you're just upset about something and searching for an answer. This isn't the answer.

[Pumpkin]

Crash has the right idea. DMT + MAOI + PCP = sketchy

Its hard to say what substances gives you the most insightful/mystical experience. SWIM believes that it is all in the situation you put yourself in while trippin. Many people have very insightful experiences with DXM, which is a totally different buzz than LSD or more 'classic' forms of insight.

That cocktail of drugs seems very scary and SWIM isnt sure if that will give SWIY any (positive) insight at all. and if it does, you will prolly be too messed up to even remember/recognize it.

maybe try ibogaine. It gives people such a mystical/insightful experience that they can kick some of the most addictive substances known. In places where its legal it seems to be used alot in psychotherapy

[sandoz1943]

Strongly agree with the previous posts. Please keep in mind that the magic, insite, or what ever you might call it is not in the drugs themselves but in the user. The drugs are only a tool. What a shame if you were to be granted one of those rare and wonderful trips when it is all laid bare and you are to screwed up to see it or remember it latter.
If you are just looking to get realy screwed up there are much safer ways to do it and if you are looking for something more deep and meaningful you may want to reconsider your current plan.
You could try reading the trip reports on this site to see if you can find a substance that supplies the results your looking for. The Wiki can help you decide what might be the best choice and can provide the information need to make an intelligent well informed choice and keep you from hurting yourself.
Best of luck hope you find what you are looking for without hurting yourself. Remember its not a competition.

[bean.]

SWIM thinks your being foolish! Theres a difference to finding yourself spiritually and being an idiot. SWIM thinks you should take it easy and thinks you should care about going insane or dieing as one of his best mates is currently on life support with brain damage. Lifes to precious to waste on doing stupid things with drugs! If your gonna do drugs you have to respect that they are dangerous before you can use them safely.

[Blu_berrytoke]

You have the mental capacity to get much higher and have much more meaningful and memorable breakthroughs in your psyche with lower doses of any of the above-mentioned collection of psychadelics, psychoactives and dissociatives, when used in combination with focused meditation. Swim would recomend mushrooms for this due to their nearly unparalelled ability to pristinely and thoroughly open one's mind. When using focused (or unfocused depending on swim's goal) meditation in combination with psych drugs one needs to watch out for unwanted energies entering into ones system, hence the need(recomendation) for lower doses. If you are in an entirely new dimension mentally there is no possible way one can know what to do and what not to do. The worlds that exist beyond the one in our constant viewpoint are unpredictable unknowns. The human mind is only allowed to understand so much before the forces that exist in the universe prevent certain knowledge from being absorbed and used due to humans tendency to basically, screw things up lol.

This is a drunken incomplete rant courtesy your local MN psychonaut But in all seriousness, be careful when pushing your mental boundaries. No one knows for sure what exists beyond them.

[el burgo]

alcohol+benzos+cannabis is SWIMS ultimate combo - Know your limit though

[g666d]

Originally Posted by Saturn

I am researching a way to liberate myself, even for a moment, from this Bardo. I wish for the ultimate ureality, the ultimate most psycho-spiritual vision quest. I no longer care about a fear of insanity I once had. I am prepared to go insane or die. In brief, I wish to ask of those "shamans" who frequent these boards as to what combonation of hallucinogens will create "The Ultimate Mystical Journey". So far, this is my formula. See if you can improve on or change it to create something you feel is induces more powerful of an experience:

M
§ 0.6g Salvia divinorum leaf
§ 105mg Harmaline
§ 45mg N,N-dimethyltryptamine
§ 10mg 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
§ 8.5mg Phencyclidine
§ 3.9mg Atropine
§ 0.7mg Scopolamine

I await all of your input my friends.

- ♄

naively, swim wonders about the parallel un-anti-dis-reality where this post was replied to... Swim assuredly believes the mental state swisaturn wants to achieve is achievable. Swim believes this can be done in a controlled and predictable manner via various chemicals (if this not too contrary to swisaturn's original intentions) and yes ok all the concern above is relevant to some people but not so sure relevant to swisaturn.
I think there are a few posts in there kinda helpful to what you want to achieve.
Swim can't really help, not being a PhD Psychonaut as such. Swim imagines large doses of LSD will surely remove much of the minds "filter", even if only introducing anomalies and feedback loops to normal cognitive process. As some people say, experiencing the 'ultimate' may be condensing your consciousness to a single nerve's synaptic activation. No value judgments are valid as no values exist when the system that small. What is it like to experience the consciousness of '+'?

Swim absolutely believes there is a way for Swisaturn to achieve this. Safely. Responsibly.

Swim has experienced elpileptic fits before, induced by some dubious poppy. This is electrical storm in swims brain. In terms of mental perspective and personal benefit Swim regards that experience as worthwhile as taking datura, which swim tells me he has only done once.
Eh, so swim so hypocritical already.
Swim goes on to say the above methods of altered conciousness had lasting effects and was hard if not impossible to see the damage unless looking back on events with healthier mental state. So swim doesn't recommend those ones
Swim actually doubts he can give much input that swisaturn hasn't already found out himself (judging by your list of ingredients & dosages) Swim has no capacity to comment on your list as he isn't familiar with most of those vitamins.

Swim wonders too, with swisaturn, what would be the most appropiate way to achive said un-state of mind, and which chemical avenues would be most appropriate.

[fuck it, swim is only posting here because it seems like there is lots of negativity towards an innocent enough idea. Swim repeat himself again but you can see how tone of thread has been adulterated (illegitimately fucked!) by posters not taking swisaturn as he came]

swim waits, wonders, is he doing any good here? swim not trying to troll but wondering how to express indignation.

There is lot of good information in this thread, and much good posts too.
Always, it is about objectivity.

peace all, even whoever i just insulted Please take anything i said in most light hearted way possible. Think it's weird the voluntary policing (of thoughts?) that is occurs.

...*wonders about the necessity of disclaimers*...
...*tells mind to shut up and stop wondering for once it always leads to trouble...*

{and finally, wonders how swisaturn's research is coming along, are you still planning original cocktail?}

[chazsaysrelax]

Tripping during a trip within another trip that's also a trip... This was already said many times before, but one is guaranteed disaster with hallucinogenic cocktails.

SWIY would probably pass out from the overload of stimuli, but more importantly the physical effects of such a cocktail could be debilitating, if not deadly. What's the use of having the "ultimate trip" when SWIY's dead or in a coma?