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Drug testing discussion What can you do against drug testing & more...

 
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  #1  
Old 16-06-2009, 04:45
Greenport Greenport is offline
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Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Sorry if a thread has already been started regarding this topic. Ernie has to quit smoking pot for awhile in order to pass a drug test and hopefully get hired (not that this place is gonna be any different than the other 25-30 places Ernie applied for with no avail...to hell with the corporate world )

Ernie is therefore wondering about synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing. He doesn't think that really oddball ones like JWH-018 would be picked up on a standard drug test but what about ones like HU-210 and the like which only differ from THC by a few carbons etc? Are the metabolites of these cannabinoids similar or the same as the ones produced by THC and thus detectable by current drug tests?

On a side-note, if Ernie were to start using a synthetic cannabinoid and it 'did' come up on a drug-test, could this be a reason to bar employment? After all, these compounds are legal as of now where Ernie is...could he make this argument and state that it is no different than say taking a tylenol?

Detailed information about the metabolites of these compounds is highly welcomed. Ernie's looking for specifics he don't just want 'You can smoke spice and still pass a drug test', he wants information (although self-experiences are welcome)

Last edited by Greenport; 16-06-2009 at 04:53.
  #2  
Old 16-06-2009, 05:45
1954 1954 is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

SWIM's son passed a employment drug screen when using SPICE-a-likes.
  #3  
Old 16-06-2009, 06:10
Valseedian Valseedian is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76446

that should cover it for ya

Valseedian added 6 Minutes and 36 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenport View Post
Sorry if a thread has already been started regarding this topic. Ernie has to quit smoking pot for awhile in order to pass a drug test and hopefully get hired (not that this place is gonna be any different than the other 25-30 places Ernie applied for with no avail...to hell with the corporate world )

Ernie is therefore wondering about synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing. He doesn't think that really oddball ones like JWH-018 would be picked up on a standard drug test but what about ones like HU-210 and the like which only differ from THC by a few carbons etc? Are the metabolites of these cannabinoids similar or the same as the ones produced by THC and thus detectable by current drug tests?

On a side-note, if Ernie were to start using a synthetic cannabinoid and it 'did' come up on a drug-test, could this be a reason to bar employment? After all, these compounds are legal as of now where Ernie is...could he make this argument and state that it is no different than say taking a tylenol?

Detailed information about the metabolites of these compounds is highly welcomed. Ernie's looking for specifics he don't just want 'You can smoke spice and still pass a drug test', he wants information (although self-experiences are welcome)
to cover the questions asked specifically by this thread:
hu-210 can have the same metabolites, but failing a THC drug test requires that you've taken enough to pass the detection threshold.. considering the incredibly miniscule amount of hu-210 that anyone would intake, and it's extra length of action, you'd have to haev a pretty serious habit to cause the same density as with marijuana.

a failed drug screening is more than enough reason to bar employment, regardless of extenuating circumstances. unluckily enough for all of us, it's not considered discrimination when you do it to 'criminals'... who exactly would you tell that they didn't hire you because of this fact? who would you admit to intaking 'not for human consumption' products to, that would have some stance to have sympathy for you?

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Good solid answer :) Didn't even think about the amounts involved

Last edited by Valseedian; 16-06-2009 at 06:10. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #4  
Old 16-06-2009, 07:02
Greenport Greenport is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Wtf why is everyone giving me bad reputation today? I had a legitimate question and I wasn't asking the same thing. Jeez!

And thanks for the answer Valseedian, that makes sense. Ernie didn't think about the relative dosage of HU-210 compared to THC and the like.

And yeh google helped Ernie find the thread swiY linked him to
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Old 16-06-2009, 07:16
Valseedian Valseedian is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

anything I can do to help you out man... I've read alot of your work and I'm quite happy to be able to contribute.
  #6  
Old 29-06-2009, 12:04
Drats Gold member Drats is offline
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AW: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

SWIM now also has to review his earlier posts. There realy seem some tests which show positiv results. A friend of SWIM had smoked 3g Dream, 3g SenCation Blackberry and 1g Scope Vanilla. He smoked all 3 products within 3-4 days and he only smoked joints, so no chance of failure through leftovers in a pipe or bong. Also he didnīt smoked regular weed for 1 year. He had to do a drug test (urine) which was send to a lab, he was tested positive, they also said just low positive. They tested him again (4 weeks later), he was positive again, this time the amount of the test was 3 times higher. To be sure, they tested him again after 4 weeks, still it could be found, he refused the results of the test, so they tested his urine in a chromatograph (burning the urine and check results through specific colors in the flame). Still it was positive, so itīs true that some blends can do a positive test.

After the chromatograph test, it was even worse for him, because some German labs also started to search for synthetic cannabinoids, he didnīt knew it, nor did SWIM. So now he is not only THC positive, the last letter said cannabinoid positive. JWH-018 and CP 47,497 is counted as "hard" drug in several states of Germany, so now he will be charged for the use of "mild" drugs (THC) AND "hard" drugs (cannabinoids).

Also the amount he smoked was not very high, but still he was positive for over 2 months, which means these substances can stay in the body for a very long time. In the end, SWIM has to say itīs not safe to use the blends anymore to pass a drug test.
  #7  
Old 11-07-2009, 04:21
Gosroth Gosroth is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

so this tread is realting to drug testing lol srry if i break any rules here but this is my firs post lol.ok back to the topic AFOAF is in the navy and he and a couple of his buddies stumbled accross "Spice,Smoke,Mojo,Smoke XXX, anda few other realted substances, well there are rumors flying around that the navy is going to implement a new drug testing policy to include these substances i was wondering EXACTLY how long these inredients stay "in system" and the likelyhood of poping positive when only smokeing about 6 grams a week, and that is a heavy week for him.also is there anyother synthitic to smoke that wont pop positive????

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Last edited by Shampoo; 11-07-2009 at 05:53. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #8  
Old 21-07-2009, 19:55
Mrak Mrak is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

SWIM tested positive for THC from smoking home-made JWH-018 and JWH-073 infused herbal buds and whatever chemical is actually in Mojo (anyone have a guess? I don't think it's 018 or 073).

Swim is a forced client in his local Drug Court district and has his urine analyzed by them 2-3 times per week. He had been smoking jwh18,73,and mojo for 3 months prior to having the positive screen come up. When his probation officer called and informed him of the positive THC screen, SWIM adamantly denied any use of THC and/or even being around THC (both are true), and requested a confirmation test be done. The probation officer tried to get him to confess saying that THC doesn't ever have false positives (BS), and threatened double the punishment if the confirmation came back positive. Swim's reported levels on the positive THC screen were at 64 (unsure of units) with the cutoff being 50.

The confirmation came back negative, and SWIM was absolved of any suspicion of wrong-doing and was apologized too for being told he should just confess. The levels of THC were not just below the cutoff, but were as low as the test reads, a functional 0. The lab attributed the false positive to human error.

It is unsure whether the false positive originally occurred due to human error, test error, or the JWH blends that were smoked copiously, but the end result was the confirmation came back, NO THC.
  #9  
Old 21-07-2009, 21:48
RaverHippie Gold member RaverHippie is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

@Mrak, had swiy smoked the JWH substance inside a pipe or smoking device previously used for marijuana?
  #10  
Old 23-07-2009, 16:24
dr ACE dr ACE is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

swim has smoked 'spice gold' and 'skunk' smoking blends and not tested positive for THC on mutiple drugs (urine) tests

Last edited by dr ACE; 06-08-2009 at 16:38.
  #11  
Old 27-07-2009, 22:47
Mrak Mrak is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaverHippie View Post
@Mrak, had swiy smoked the JWH substance inside a pipe or smoking device previously used for marijuana?
Definitely not. Swim is aware of the dangers of failing a UA because of THC resin drity pipes. All of his pipes are brand new, bought since he quit smoking marijuana.

Update!

Swim has failed another initial drug screen for THC. This proves that something swim's been smoking sets off a false positive for THC. Yet again swim denied everything, and said truthfully that no THC has entered his body and he would like another confirmation test. The results are still pending for the second confirmation test, but it is expected to come back negative, just like the first one did. (note that the samples from the initial test are kept and reused for the confirmation test.)

The local Drug Court swim is in is confused to say the least. Swim's Case Manager (the one that swore the first confirmation would come back positive because "there are no such things as false positves") is once again putting the pressure on for swim to confess to smoking marijuana, which he will not do, as he has not.

Another post will be made after the second confirmation test comes back. Swim has been maintaining the levels of jwh in his system because his story to drug court is that his asthma medicines must be setting off the initial test, and it would look strange if his levels dropped off just because he was under suspicion. Swim's plan is to try to get the drug court to automatically send off his samples for the more complicated, more expensive, confirmation test, which will always come back negative for thc for him.

Also, soon swim will switch to just jwh 018 again and drop 073. If my levels drop, swim'll claim he has not needed as much medicine and all will eventually be forgotten.
  #12  
Old 28-07-2009, 02:03
Valseedian Valseedian is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrak View Post
Definitely not. Swim is aware of the dangers of failing a UA because of THC resin drity pipes. All of his pipes are brand new, bought since he quit smoking marijuana.

Update!

Swim has failed another initial drug screen for THC. This proves that something swim's been smoking sets off a false positive for THC. Yet again swim denied everything, and said truthfully that no THC has entered his body and he would like another confirmation test. The results are still pending for the second confirmation test, but it is expected to come back negative, just like the first one did. (note that the samples from the initial test are kept and reused for the confirmation test.)

The local Drug Court swim is in is confused to say the least. Swim's Case Manager (the one that swore the first confirmation would come back positive because "there are no such things as false positves") is once again putting the pressure on for swim to confess to smoking marijuana, which he will not do, as he has not.

Another post will be made after the second confirmation test comes back. Swim has been maintaining the levels of jwh in his system because his story to drug court is that his asthma medicines must be setting off the initial test, and it would look strange if his levels dropped off just because he was under suspicion. Swim's plan is to try to get the drug court to automatically send off his samples for the more complicated, more expensive, confirmation test, which will always come back negative for thc for him.

Also, soon swim will switch to just jwh 018 again and drop 073. If my levels drop, swim'll claim he has not needed as much medicine and all will eventually be forgotten.
Just because you can detect THC for 45 days after heavy use doesn't mean it's detectable after single use for more than 24 hours.

Truely, the urine tests have MUCH more to do with the use of the last 6 hours especially, and exponentially less and less as more time goes by. I find even with extremely heavy use I can pass a dip test with no more than 48 hours of straight clean.

some labs don't test for the same things, and some dip tests are more comprehensive than others...

maybe your dip test can detect some 'legals', but the lab strictly tests for illegals.
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Old 28-07-2009, 07:50
runitsthepolice runitsthepolice is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrak View Post
Definitely not. Swim is aware of the dangers of failing a UA because of THC resin drity pipes. All of his pipes are brand new, bought since he quit smoking marijuana.

Update!

Swim has failed another initial drug screen for THC. This proves that something swim's been smoking sets off a false positive for THC. Yet again swim denied everything, and said truthfully that no THC has entered his body and he would like another confirmation test. The results are still pending for the second confirmation test, but it is expected to come back negative, just like the first one did. (note that the samples from the initial test are kept and reused for the confirmation test.)

The local Drug Court swim is in is confused to say the least. Swim's Case Manager (the one that swore the first confirmation would come back positive because "there are no such things as false positves") is once again putting the pressure on for swim to confess to smoking marijuana, which he will not do, as he has not.

Another post will be made after the second confirmation test comes back. Swim has been maintaining the levels of jwh in his system because his story to drug court is that his asthma medicines must be setting off the initial test, and it would look strange if his levels dropped off just because he was under suspicion. Swim's plan is to try to get the drug court to automatically send off his samples for the more complicated, more expensive, confirmation test, which will always come back negative for thc for him.

Also, soon swim will switch to just jwh 018 again and drop 073. If my levels drop, swim'll claim he has not needed as much medicine and all will eventually be forgotten.
Sorry dude, theres no way jwh-018 or jwh-073 are setting off a false positive or doing anything on your urine tests. Theres no reason to "keep up your jwh levels." The fact that you failed another initial thc screen does not "prove" anything. The dip stick "initial drug screens" are known for false positives from a variety of causes. You're really "misinformed".

Last edited by Gradient; 25-04-2011 at 22:09. Reason: removed some unneeded sparks
  #14  
Old 28-07-2009, 09:38
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

check out what all can possibly give false positives. ive heard ibuprofen can give a false pos. tho who knows how legit that statement is
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:57
Valseedian Valseedian is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

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check out what all can possibly give false positives. ive heard ibuprofen can give a false pos. tho who knows how legit that statement is
that changed more than a decade ago, it's just a myth now.. it used to set off a very specific dip test because it's an anandamine reuptake inhibitor (or something to that nature, I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head so please don't crucify me if I'm wrong)

there ARE, however, a very large list of 'reasonable excuses', including unintentional injestion of cannabis laced confections (if you have a friend ballsy enough to come to court and admit that he made them and you didn't know, it'd be even better... of course, that's only if it's really worth it), and if you have been; loosing weight... also, you could claim that you were very dehydrated and it was your first urine of the day, which can be dirty even after months.

failing a test has more to do with your previous 7 days ingestion than any other factor. I'd go so far as to say the last 2 days are the golden days. heavy users should stay clean for 2 days, moderate users, 1 day.

and your 'usage' level is dependant on your size, excersize routine, body fat %, fluid intake and a host of other variables making this not as easy as 1,2,3...

there's more to it, but I've not the time to type anymore tonight.
~val.

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good to remind people that there are no straight lines to know for sure when you will/will not test positive, always best to stay clean for as long as possible no matter the substance
  #16  
Old 05-08-2009, 22:22
Mrak Mrak is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by runitsthepolice View Post
Sorry dude, theres no way jwh-018 or jwh-073 are setting off a false positive or doing anything on your urine tests. Theres no reason to "keep up your jwh levels." The fact that you failed another initial thc screen does not "prove" anything. The dip stick "initial drug screens" are known for false positives from a variety of causes. You're really "misinformed" and it pained me to read your last "post".

There's no way huh? Sounds just like the drug court worker's themselves over-sure of their science. SWIM stopped smoking jwh-073, and stopped getting the positive THC screen. SWIM took it a step further. SWIM bought 2 cheapy stick-tests from his local pharmacy. He had his friend take one of the tests, which detected no THC in his friend's urine. He gave his remaining supply of jwh-073 to this friend, telling him to smoke heartily because swim couldn't any longer. The friend was tested the next day and the test was POSITVE. JWH-073 CAN and DOES set off some THC tests.

Does that seems like "theres no way jwh-018 or jwh-073 are setting off a false positive or doing anything on your urine tests." Swim fails when he uses it, and passes when he stops, and someone else that previously passed, failed after smoking 073.

Yes the the dipsticks are know to show positives for a variety of causes, and we should now add having 073 in your system as another cause.

I'm not trying to stop the flow of info here, I'd like others to post about what they've found out about JWH-073 and drug testing themselves.
  #17  
Old 06-08-2009, 03:48
runitsthepolice runitsthepolice is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

The difference between the drug court workers and myself is that I am not an idiot.

You aren't smoking jwh-073, or you're doing something else wrong. Back your assertion up with proof.

Drug tests for cannabis look for a metabolite of THC. What metabolites do jwh-073 and THC have in common?

Do your tests get sent to the "federal lab in california?"
  #18  
Old 06-08-2009, 04:42
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Runitsthepolice, I'm no peace lover, but can pick a more productive line of discussion?

I'm sure as imperfect as some of these tests are anything short of GC/MS, on blood, at the time of ingestion is going to produce some false positives and as such it's useful information for people who rely on the results of these test (that there have been possibly related false-positives).

Last edited by msimm; 06-08-2009 at 05:02. Reason: spelling BAM!
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Old 06-08-2009, 04:51
runitsthepolice runitsthepolice is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by msimm View Post
Runitsthepolice, I'm no peace lover, but can pick a more product line of discussion?

I'm sure as imperfect as some of these tests are anything short of GC/MS, on blood, at the time of ingestion is going to produce some false positives and as such it's useful information for people who rely on the results of these test (that there have been possibly related false-positives).
The problem is that it isn't useful information. It's false information. There is no relation between smoking jwh-073 and failing a drug test for cannabis or THC. Can either of you show me the mechanism by which smoking jwh-073 affects the results of a THC test? You can't because it doesn't.

Dip stick tests can have false positives for NO REASON AT ALL. That is no reason to scare people who don't know any better out of getting high when they are not supposed to.
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:09
msimm msimm is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

I don't study pharmacology, kinetics or design tests. Have there been studies done showing how these chemicals are broken down in the body? Is it possible these chemicals might break down in such a way they create a metabolites which might to a tested metabolite?

Because as I understand it drug tests use known markers, such as metabolites to proximate testing for many known actives.

As an aside, how can we punish parolees for using cannabinoids if they haven't even been established illegal? That seems arbitrary.

Last edited by msimm; 06-08-2009 at 05:20.
  #21  
Old 06-08-2009, 16:58
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

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Originally Posted by msimm View Post
Is it possible these chemicals might break down in such a way they create a metabolites which might to a tested metabolite?
No absolutely not, these compounds are so structurally distinct from cannabis derived cannabinoids that a common metabolite would be an impossibility. The naphthoylindoles are also structurally removed from any recreational drug that might be tested for.
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Old 06-08-2009, 19:18
Valseedian Valseedian is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by nibble View Post
No absolutely not, these compounds are so structurally distinct from cannabis derived cannabinoids that a common metabolite would be an impossibility. The naphthoylindoles are also structurally removed from any recreational drug that might be tested for.
in my extremely experienced opinion, nibble is 100% correct.

there is no need for any speculation that any of the JWH's can trip ANY test that doesn't specifically look for legal synthetic cannabinoids, of which those drop tests you bought more than definitely do not.
  #23  
Old 06-08-2009, 20:41
Mrak Mrak is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

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Originally Posted by runitsthepolice View Post
The problem is that it isn't useful information. It's false information. There is no relation between smoking jwh-073 and failing a drug test for cannabis or THC. Can either of you show me the mechanism by which smoking jwh-073 affects the results of a THC test? You can't because it doesn't.

Dip stick tests can have false positives for NO REASON AT ALL. That is no reason to scare people who don't know any better out of getting high when they are not supposed to.

It's not false information. It's useful information. If someone else would have posted what I did before I did, it would have saved swim a hell of a lot of hassle.

Try it. Smoke jwh-073 and take a couple types of drug test. Swiy will fail for THC for some of them. Swim has done this, has smoked 073 and failed twice, then quit smoking it and passed. Swim's friend has done this, passed a test, then smoked 073 and then failed the next test. Swiy has not. Y'all are all just speculating. You say what you think the presence of jwh-073 would or wouldn't do to a THC urine analysis, based on your knowledge of chemistry, but it's still just speculation. Swim has tried it. Anyone can go out, obtain some jwh 073, smoke it, and make a drug test swho positive for thc. It's easy.

Mrak added 9 Minutes and 3 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nibble View Post
No absolutely not, these compounds are so structurally distinct from cannabis derived cannabinoids that a common metabolite would be an impossibility. The naphthoylindoles are also structurally removed from any recreational drug that might be tested for.
Lets stop thinking backwards and start with what we know. Jwh 073 shows up positive on a test that tests for thc metabolites. What would make you conclude that that a common metabolite is impossible? More likely, there is a common metabolite.

Yes THC and jwh 073 are very structurally different, but they bond to other molecules very similarly. For example, they both bond with your brain's cannibinoid receptor site the same way... If jwh acts the same way in your brain as THC, isn't it pretty reasonable that they could share metabolites?

Mrak added 2 Minutes and 50 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valseedian View Post
in my extremely experienced opinion, nibble is 100% correct.

there is no need for any speculation that any of the JWH's can trip ANY test that doesn't specifically look for legal synthetic cannabinoids, of which those drop tests you bought more than definitely do not.
I agree there is no need for any speculation. Swim has stopped speculating and started experimenting. I would like anyone else who also goes and gets any first hand knowledge about jwh 073 and drug tests to please post about what they find

But it's not specualtion, it's fact, 073 can cause a false positive for THC.

Last edited by Mrak; 06-08-2009 at 20:41. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #24  
Old 06-08-2009, 21:12
honourableone Gold member honourableone is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrak View Post
But it's not specualtion, it's fact, 073 can cause a false positive for THC.
This thread is getting a little messy, and I was hoping to stay out of this argument, but I have to interject with this statement in particular. It's good that you posted your experiences with regards to false positives in drug tests, but one person making unlikely claims with improper scientific conditions and monitoring with only a couple of trials does not make something a fact. As has been said, these dipstick tests are unreliable and can can cause false positives for a myriad of reasons.
  #25  
Old 06-08-2009, 21:13
nibble nibble is offline
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Re: Synthetic cannabinoids and drug testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrak View Post
Lets stop thinking backwards and start with what we know. Jwh 073 shows up positive on a test that tests for thc metabolites. What would make you conclude that that a common metabolite is impossible? More likely, there is a common metabolite.
As I said they are so chemically distinct, what possible enzymatic process could result in a common chemical product?

THC


Quote:
Yes THC and jwh 073 are very structurally different, but they bond to other molecules very similarly. For example, they both bond with your brain's cannibinoid receptor site the same way... If jwh acts the same way in your brain as THC, isn't it pretty reasonable that they could share metabolites?
Ligands with markedly different structures can bind to the same protein targets, there are often trends among similar compounds but many exceptions exist. The naphthoylindoles are theorised to bind to the CB receptor through aromatic stacking interactions, multiple molecules would be implicated in binding with a single receptor site.

Post Quality Evaluations:
please upload these images, because imageshack will kill them in time.
It's obvious you are knowledgable, and this information is very helpful.
Attached Images
File Type: png 220pxjwh073svg.png (6.2 KB, 566 views)
File Type: png 242pxtetrahydrocannabin.png (3.1 KB, 567 views)

Last edited by nibble; 25-10-2009 at 02:19.

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