Substance Summary

[sterling77]

"...Each individual psychedelic causes a unique spectrum of subjective effects. DIPT causes auditory distortion. 5-MeO-DIPT enhances orgasm in males but not females. MDMA provokes empathy. TMA provokes anger. Mescaline provokes an appreciation of beauty. 2C-B causes tactile, gustatory and sexual enhancement. 2C-E provokes rich fantasy and introspection. Taken collectively, these compounds provide a rich set of tools for probing and revealing the chemical organization of the human brain and the mind that emerges from it."
-The Chemical Architecture of the Human Mind by
Tom Ray


Just thought everyone might like to see this as there are

so many questions about the effects/differences between

RC's and other psychadelics, and it's a nice little

summary of the effects of some substances.

[radiometer]

The problem is that not everyone who's tried those substances would
agree. A reading of the "trip-report" literature for any of those drugs will
reveal a vastly wide variety of responses to the same drug from different
individuals, some of which will directly contradict Tom Ray's descriptions.Edited by: radiometer

[Chaote]

He could be talking like scientifically like said chems have this effect on neurons which hypothetically cretae this effect or it could be a magorical thing. like most ppl feel this but this is speculation

[radiometer]

Wow, either you are very intuitive, or you've heard of thsi already!
Here's a description of Ray's research:

The Chemical Architecture of the Human Mind:
Probing Receptor Space with Psychedelics

Nineteen psychedelics ( 2C-B, 2C-B-fly, DOB, DOI, DOM, 2C-E, 2C-T-2,
ALEPH-2, Mescaline, MEM, MDA, MDMA, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, 5-MeO-
MIPT, DIPT, 5-MeO-DIPT, DPT, Psilocin) and three controls (lisuride 6-
fluoro-DMT, 4C-T-2) have each been screened against the full panel of
over one hundred receptors, transporters and ion channels by the
National Institute of Mental Health Psychoactive Drug Screening Program
(NIMH-PDSP), providing the first comprehensive view of how these
compounds interact with the human receptome.

Each individual psychedelic causes a unique spectrum of subjective
effects. DIPT causes auditory distortion. 5-MeO-DIPT enhances orgasm in
males but not females. MDMA provokes empathy. TMA provokes anger.
Mescaline provokes an appreciation of beauty. 2C-B causes tactile,
gustatory and sexual enhancement. 2C-E provokes rich fantasy and
introspection. Taken collectively, these compounds provide a rich set of
tools for probing and revealing the chemical organization of the human
brain and the mind that emerges from it.

The project aims to understand the mechanisms underlying the
qualitative diversity of actions of psychedelics, by locating each drug in
an abstract " receptor space", a coordinate system with one axis for each
receptor. Drugs shift the balance of activity of the brain away from the
origin, by a vector representing the profile of binding affinities at
different receptors. Drugs perturb the system through increasing or
decreasing transmission or transmitter levels, or up or down regulating
receptor populations.

In a brain-centered reference frame, the origin is based on absolute
levels of activity at each receptor population. The state of the brain is
constantly on the move, regardless of medication. We can think of it as a
complex dynamical system, in which the trajectory follows high-
dimensional orbits, and switches among many "attractors", where the
attractors represent the major emotional states and moods, and whatever
mental phenomena the chemical systems are mediating.

In this dynamic reference frame, drugs will create a perturbation along
the binding vector, thereby pushing the system into a new attractor. We
want to understand how patterns of activity at receptor populations
associate with mental phenomena. We want to get to know the
pharmacology of the attractors. By correlating the subjective effects of a
diverse selection of psychedelic drugs with the position of the drugs in
"receptor space", we can begin to map the chemical organization of the
human mind.

The current project is charting the distribution of psychedelics in
"receptor space". In future work, new human data will be needed, using
subjective questionnaires and brain imaging, as in the work of
Vollenweider. For human work, compounds will be carefully chosen to
represent distinct regions of "receptor space", or distinct subjective
effects.

The goal of mapping "receptor space" is to chart the relationships
between complex alterations in chemical signaling, and resulting changes
in neural activity and mental states. This empirical knowledge can form a
foundation for the development of a theory of the chemistry of mind, and
provide a more rational basis for the development of chemical treatments
for mental disorders. The understanding of the chemistry of
consciousness is the ultimate goal of this research.

http://www.nis.atr.jp/~ray/pubs/Tucson04/

I've not read the full text, only this abstract. I find this topic to be highly
fascinating, but my point is the same: many users have had
experiences which directly contradict these glib definitions of the drugs'
effects.Edited by: radiometer

[sterling77]

That's definetly true, trip reports can differ wildy, from weed causing a pseudo-acid death trip complete with full-on OBEs and CEVs to an uninteresting tingley feeling.

I've never heard that description of 2c-e before though, "rish fantasy and introspection". Well that's a lie i've heard of 2c-e being introspective, but then again I've also heard that it makes you extroverted. Whatever.

[nanobrain]

^^what a total pseudoscientific crock, that abstract. for receptor topology, one is advised to address some of Dave Nichols or Glennon's works, or even these cats, i wish i remembered who they are: refEdited by: nanobrain

[anj0vis]

To me most of those chemicals are very near identical, I would go so far as to claim that even rather experienced people would have difficulties in making any difference between the chemicals in double blind studies. I would like to see such test done though, to see if there is any statistical difference in identifying, say, 2c-e, lsd, mushrooms and miprocin from each other. If I ever have some free time, I'd like to set up that experiment myself.Edited by: anj0vis

[sterling77]

Anj0vis, I had a pretty long and in depth response to that, but my browser decided to unexpectedly quit as I was finishing it.

As I am in a crunch for time and have to leave right now, the jist of it was that I disagree.

[anj0vis]

I might of course be entirely wrong, but the only way to know for sure is to make the double blind study for these different psychoactives. I have rather good amount of 2c-e, so if I happen to get good amount of lsd or something else, I will do this study for at least 2 chemicals with hopefully dozens of experiments. It would be extremely interesting to know how large the identified percentage would be. Naturally this kind of experiment requires many experienced subjects, lots of time etc.. it is my personal belief (at the moment, without scientific basis) that most of these chemicals are interchangable, except in the length of the trip and initial onset time. Edited by: anj0vis

[sterling77]

Well then the subjects can't be experienced users of these substances, as they can use the onset and duration to identify the substance. And that would limit the field to in-experienced users, which would render the experiment inaccurate.

Just my thoughts feel free to critique, I want to put in some deep/more thought but am stoned.

[GDxCAT]

i think i could easily tell the difference between 2ce, miprocin, mushrooms and LSD.

I find all of them to be unique and provide different effects.

[anj0vis]

sterling100, yes, you are right that experiment would have to have some extra measures to negate the differences in onset time. There are something that can be done to this. Chemicals are best ingested in unnamed gelcaps, where also lsd can be put into. Extra filler substance or double or triple gelcap packing will also create some delay for the onset, so with combination of these, I think it would be possible to get nearly identical onset time for all chemicals involved. Mushrooms are difficult since they take so much space, I would have to have pure psilocin but that is rather cumbersome to acquire effectively leaving mushrooms out of the experiment for now. I have made the plans to put 3 check points in the experiment at t+1h, t+3h (this is the primary one, others could be forgotten practically, but they are also of some interest) and after the whole experience (when the total trip time will give out the substance usually). Set + setting should be chosen by the subjects themselves and all the options that gelcaps can contain should be given beforehand. Any other ideas or comments for the plan?

I would love to take all of you into this experiment, but the spatial distance might render it impossible as I reside in northern Europe. It might be quite difficult in fact to find proper test subjects here.Edited by: anj0vis

[sterling77]

Quote from Mushroom Extraction Tek:

"The standard dose of psilocybin or psilocin for a 150 lb person is a 6-20 mg dose. We will figure the average dose as 10 mg. The crude alkaloid extraction process given here yields a brownish crystalline powder that is at least 25 percent pure."


Find it on the Mushroom Extraction thread under mushroom use.

[allyourbase]

*laughing uncontrollably*


is thatthe samemushroom extract tek that says to use methanol, which psylocybin and psylocyn are insoluable in? n/m Im thinking of the "mycelieum extract tek" on the web thats complete BS.


anyway, theyre nothing alike, any of those substances, besides the qualatative gap in between those three chemical architypes (lysergides, tryptamines, phenethylamines) there are also VAST gaps in time of onset, nature of mental manifestations, nature of physical manifestations, and let us not forget duration.Edited by: allyourbase

[Nagognog2]

Yawn...stretch...been done before. It was in Menlo Park, California, Their results, the ones not disclosed and published(never mind how I got them) showed there was no cut and dried "given" regards these substances. Whether LSD25 or psilocybin or mescaline, the results were all over the map. They also played with the JB series like Ditran. This DID have a given result - pure delirium. So the US government continued the research in that direction, and manufactured BZ (quinuclidnyl benzilate hydrochloride) as a chemical warfare agent.


By the by, the one time I felt silly(or is it Psliy) enough to extract some psilocybe species, I used 20-40C BP Petroleum Ether: Pentane and Hexane. Worked fine. But I still wonder why I did that. Must have been bored that day.

[anj0vis]

nagognog2: care to give any more references or similar (yes, I read it was not disclosed)? Sounds interesting to me. I would love to see these tests done with different "RC"'s too, it would be valuable information. Too bad I am rather busy these days or I would start this project right away.

[Nagognog2]

They were compiled and analyized by Blum & Associates in the early/mid 1960's. Try to go find such. I don't have access to them anymore. I was a friend of one of the researchers from back then. She has since moved away and I don't have her address. If I did, I'd be glad to lend you a hand. It was interesting work. So was she. She had a lovely bottle of the original Sandoz Labs LSD25. Try a google on Blum & Associates.


Bon Chance.

[jaguarangel]

The Albert Hoffman website has reports and clinical studies done the 1950's
and early 60's of various psychedelics and their findings. The problem with
making generalizations is that each study is very subjective. The person's
state of mind, location and dosage play big parts in the experience. When
TMA2 was legal, several studies showed some subjects did not experience
any anger (for example).