Shulgins on the pleasures of sex drugs

[transit]

I was really pleased to find this interview
with two of my favorite researchers/authors.


Talking with Ann and
Sasha Shulgin

On the existence of God and
the pleasures of sex drugs


Interviewed by Jon Hanna and Sylvia Thyssen


Jon: A mutual friend of ours once told me that he thought
one of the primary motivations you had for investigating new compounds was that
you were looking for drugs that went well with sex.


Sasha: Um-hmm. This is not an insignificant portion of my investigations.
You’re familiar with a good range of psychedelic drugs, presumably, along with
spirituality and sex in your own world. Indeed some of the materials make a
very good, close interaction possible. And a very intimate interaction. But
blatant eroticism isn’t always present; it depends on the particular drug
you’re using. So that is another area that needs definition. Just as the word
“spirituality” has to be defined, so does “sexuality.” Let’s go back to that.
What is spirituality? What do you mean by spirituality?


Jon: Some connection with what people consider “God.”


Sasha: Oh! You have to believe in God to be spiritual?


Sylvia: I wouldn’t agree with that.


Sasha: I know. So what is the underlying
definition, or the concept, of spirituality. And there’s the same question with
sex.


Jon: Okay, so this leads to another question that I wanted
to ask you, which relates to spirituality. You have created what people now
refer to as “the Shulgin Scale.” And as a way to describe the action of
psychoactive materials, this scale ranges from the “minus” up to the
“plus-four.”


Sasha: Well, “plus-four” is really not a part of the scale.


Jon: Right. And that is an issue that a lot of people have
misunderstood. It really goes up to “plus-three.” “Plus-four” is a magical sort
of mind state


Sasha: A completely different place. And there is maybe where you play with spirituality, but also you play with power.


Jon: . . .which I believe has been described as a “oneness
with God.”


Sasha: In one of my two or three “plusfour “ experiences-- where suddenly you are
running the show, you are God, you are whatever it is--I was walking over towards the lab,
just amazed, and we had a little cat up the hill a ways. And I looked at the cat,
and somehow I got the cat to look at me. And that cat just bolted right up the
hill as far and as fast away from me as it could go. I just, you know, gave it the
message. . . not verbally. I could do that kind of thing. I could make a damn
hose wrap in another way, lying on the ground. . . If you can make a cat run
away from you out of total fear--is that God?


Jon: So you’ve had a few of these experiences.


Sasha: Um-hmm.


Jon: And yet I’ve also asked you in the past about your
belief in God, and you’ve told me that you’re an atheist.


Sasha: Probably. That’s probably the better word. Because one thing I think is
that many people dump a lot of their own problems by blaming them on God. Or
they say they blew up an Israeli hamburger stand because of God. . .


Ann: But that’s got nothing to do with what you might think God is. You’re talking about religious beliefs.


Sasha: The big joker up there with the beard, pointing down to us. . .


Ann: Right, but there’s no such thing. And you don’t believe in that.


Jon: But my question for you--and everyone who believes in
God probably has a different image of what they believe God is--but as far as
calling yourself an atheist, this would deliver the message that you don’t
believe that there is a God. And yet at the same time, you’ve had a few of
these “plus-four” God-like experiences. You just said during such an experience
you are God--you can jolt a cat up a
hill or change a hose around. So how are those two positions reconciled?


Sasha: Well, to have a “God-like” experience, you’re describing the experience,
not God. So it’s a term I can use to communicate with you. If I stopped a woman
on a sidewalk of <st1:City><st1 lace>San Francisco</st1 lace></st1:City>, and asked: “What do you think of the research that’s
done on the entheogens?” I’d get a “Huh?” So, if I change and say, “What do you
think about psychedelics?” I’d actually get some kind of answer. So to use a
phrase “Godlike experience,” is a form of communication.


Jon: Okay. How about “becoming God,” or “a connection with
God?” Connecting with something that could be considered a “higher power” than
what one’s own power is.


Sasha: I’ll ask you a question then. Do you believe that there would be
such a thing as God if there was no one who was intelligent enough to ask the question?
There’s no humans, only animals. Is there a God?


Jon: Well, I do believe in God. . .


Sasha: That’s not my question.


Jon: Okay, well. . . I’m only saying that as background.
Yes, I think that there still would be a God, whether. . .


Ann: Do you find that our minds created, what
it is that we think of as God?


Jon: Man created God in his image.


Sasha: Um-hmm. Big gray beard pointing down. . .


Ann: That one, yes. But is there any larger consciousness than the ones we are
aware of?


Sasha: I’m going to answer that in a very oblique way. I think there is a single consciousness; all of us here.


Ann: That there is a single consciousness.


Sasha: Um-hmm.


Jon: And that, I think, is what. . . many people consider that to be God.


Sasha: Okay, if they want to embrace that, I have no objections.


Ann: But, that’s what he’s asking!


Sasha: Well, I know. I’m answering as best I can. I’m trying to think of a way
of answering that is in keeping with my own belief systems. If you have a
single consciousness, God would be that. Yeah. And there’s another thing--the
idea of the fine line between having time pass and having separations between
things. Or having no time at all and having everything be simultaneous, where
you have no meaning to time at all. We live in both of these worlds. And I
think the latter world is one probably people would say is a definition of God:
The entire operation, with no time passing whatsoever--absolute concurrence.


Jon: And that is something that you can gain glimpses of on
psychedelics.


Sasha: Um-hmm.


Ann: That’s a perfectly good definition of God. It just doesn’t happen to be
the classic, usual. . .


Jon: Yet even with that definition, you personally wouldn’t want to call that
God.


Sasha: I might. . .


Sylvia: That’s why we didn’t call this issue, “Sex, God, and
Psychedelics.”


Jon: So, I guess this returns us to the definition of
“spirituality,” a word that can perhaps be more loosely defined than “God,” and
which may even be acceptable to atheists. Some people just don’t like the
“G-o-d” word.


Ann: But Sasha, you’re not an atheist. An atheist
really is. . . agnostic is a better word.


Sasha: Well, I’m playing with the balance between atheism and agnosticism.


Ann: Agnostics say, “I really don’t know.”


Sasha: I really don’t know. I have my own opinions, and they’re not very positive. . .


Ann: An atheist is basically someone who says, “This is the material world,
there is absolutely nothing else. . .”


Sasha: No, no. I’m not an atheist from that definition.


Ann: Okay.


Sasha: Agnostic is always safe.


Sylvia: Sure.


Sasha: Well, the entire Western world has had a plethora of Gods for a few
hundred years--is that okay? I mean, that God can take many forms?


Jon: We still do have ‘em. Yeah, I don’t have any problem
with God taking many forms. And I guess that goes back to what you were saying with
your ideas being right for you. It’s only when
you’re trying to persuade someone else that your way is the one right way that
we get into problems.


Sylvia: I didn’t really think we were going into this project
having a clearly-defined operational definition for “spirituality;” we’ll just
let people feel inclined to respond in whatever way they want. The response may
be, “Well what do you think spirituality is?” Which
gets into a discussion that can be important to have.


Jon: Moving back to the sexuality aspect of our topic,
since we sort of got side-tracked on spirituality. . .


Sylvia: It’s all the same thing.


Jon: Well, it is all related. So, Ann, when you were away
for a moment, Sasha related a comment that he said you might not want to be quoted
on--”nothing can ruin an intimate moment like an erection,” or something like
that.


Ann: (laughing) That takes a little bit of explaining. I think that we’ll
deal with that in the next book. Okay, this is off the record or on the record?


Jon: Well, you can say it’s off the record, or. . .


Ann: That’s okay--I can put it delicately, I guess. When you get to a certain
age, for a man, erections are a little hard to come by.


Jon: Ask Bob Dole.


Ann: I mean, you plan on living into your 80s or 90s? What you find out, if
you have a good partner who will go exploring with you, is that this doesn’t
mean that you can’t have orgasms. So the whole idea of Viagra¨ and Bob Dole. . . the older man’s erection is a kind
of “in between” state. The only thing is that the average male thinks of the
erection as kind of “the male symbol.” It is not necessary to get a full
erection in order to have orgasm. So then we come to oral sex; if you pursue
oral sex when you are older, you can have a fantastic sex life. Some people. .
. there are a lot of people in the Owl Club who are in their 60s, who don’t do anything any more, probably because their wives say,
“I’m not going to do that.” And I am pleased to say that we have a rolling sex
life, and we’re in our 70s.


Sasha: Have you ever encountered the term “foxy methoxy” on the Internet?


Jon: Sure, yeah. 5-MeO-DiPT.


Sasha: Have you ever tried it?


Jon: I did try it one time. . .


Sasha: Probably a full dose?


Jon: . . .but I wasn’t in a particular situation where I
was able to explore the “foxy” side of it.


Sasha: Well, actually at the regular full dose--12 or 15 mg, I don’t know how
much you used--it is not a terribly satisfactory psychedelic.


Jon: Right. I agree.


Sasha: However, if you ever have a chance, try 6 mg.


Ann: Now, for a young person, it may not be the same. . .


Sasha: It may not be, okay. But 6 mg. . . it does not help erections one damn
bit, at all; you’re still on your own in that area. But if you get to the point
of orgasm, it’s explosive. It’s almost scary! Small amounts intensify orgasm.
Not for Ann, but for me. Is it a male/ female thing? I don’t know.


Ann: I really don’t know. That’s one of the things that we have to find out.
And it may not be every man, but I suspect that it is effective more for older
men than for anyone else, that’s why it hasn’t gotten much feedback from young
researchers.


Sasha: So there’s an example. Is that a sexy drug? Well, no. Well, I don’t
know. It depends. And for whom? And under what circumstances? What age and what
sex? I don’t know.


Jon: Which of all of the many different drugs do each of
you feel is the most compatible for sexual relations.


Sasha: You mean the physical performance or the intimacy?


Jon: Both.


Sasha: Well, then, there are many different drugs for different things.


Ann: Yeah, that is very tricky. That’s something that we’re going to have to
make much clearer in the next book, because the relaxation and disinhibition
effect of many psychedelics is what most people respond to. If you’re in a
sexual situation what you want is that un-tenseness. A dropping of the tension
and the over-activity of the intellect--you know, the “let go” thing. And most
psychedelics do that. MDMA, of course, doesn’t let you do anything.


Jon: Well, I don’t agree with that. Going back to what you
were saying about having an orgasm without having an erection; with MDMA, for
me, that’s the way to go. And it’s true that one cannot get--or at least I
haven’t been able to get--completely full erections, yet it is still a fabulous
compound and the intimacy is there. But you have to work on it; you can’t give
up. Some people get tired or worn out. . .


Ann: In general, and politically, there’s this whole emphasis that MDMA is a
“club drug.” And club drugs are commonly thought of as something that you can
pop into somebody’s drink and they become amnesiac, they lose control, and they
can get raped, and whatever. Well, MDMA is none of those things. It’s a love drug, but it’s not a sex drug, as most people think of sex. And it
really takes effort. Leave the sex for another time.


Jon: Well, I think it’s a worthwhile effort. . .


Ann: Yeah. . . but with the other psychedelics, I think. . . there are very
few psychedelics that you can’t make love on, if
you find the right dose.


Sasha: There are some that are very body-oriented, like 2C-B for example.


Ann: 2C-B, and LSD for most people. But you have to find the right dosage level, otherwise you’re going “way out there.” And
that’s the trick. Ketamine--we know people who are very successful making love
with that. . .


Sasha: And I know people who don’t even know where their body is while on ketamine.


Ann: Yeah, but that’s the dosage again. You stay pretty low. I haven’t taken
it at all, so. . .


Sasha: When you’re out there in the outer galaxies, observing the beauty of the
world and God and all that sort of thing. . . as our Secret Chief once said of
ketamine, “It’s amazing, you know somewhere, you know someone who has a full
bladder, but you don’t give a shit.” It’s not your concern, it’s his concern. . . So with this sort of separation, there’s
no meaning to sex.


Ann: On the other hand, if you consider the famous temple in India, which is
full of every conceivable sex position that anyone could take, that is a temple
illustrating--as I understand it--one of the ways to attain the God-head. It
makes it very clear that this is one of the ways you get there: sex. So you
cannot really divorce the sexual from the spiritual, because if you get in the
right space with the right person and can open up the right things, they are one-and-the-same.


Sylvia: Agreed! Thanks for taking the time to speak with us
for MAPS. ¥


<b style="">maps
volume XII number 1 sex, spirit, and psychedelics 2002[/b]



This was taken from a Multidisciplinary
Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) publication. If you haven’t looked at their website, I suggest you do so – http://www.maps.org/

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent, thanks for sharing.

[jaguarangel]

In my experience, some drugs are great tools to intensify sexual pleasure.
22-24mg. of 2CB (when it was still legal) at the 1:45 hour point was one of
my favorites for experiencing sensations at the same time. 5-MeO-DIPT
seemed to enhance male ejaculation. I had a great conversation with Ann
about how when we get older, intercourse is not that comfortable. Oral sex
and manual stimulation (with hands) doing of one another is much more
comfortable and gratifying. If you believe the drug is what is making you
have a good sex life, you may be disappointed and betrayed. No matter how
great the drug is, if your mind is not there, you won't have a good time. If
your mind has decided to want to enjoy the whole experience, then the drug
can be used as a tool to enhance what you created in your mind!

[jaguarangel]

Did any of you go to Mind States? We were all there! I would love to talk to
folks about Sylvia's talk on harm reduction, Sasha and Ann's q & a and other
inspirational lectures by Charles Grob and Rick Doblin!

[genaro]

TRYPTAMINES:


4-HO-DIPT


"Fifty minutes, incredible orgasm"


4-HO-MIPT


"The erotic was excellent"


5-MEO-DIPT


"In one hour I was in a marvelous, sexy place. Everything was shaded with eroticism. Sex was explosive, and in another three hours I was completely ready for the outside, public world. As a short term aphrodisiac, this leaves 2C-B in the dust." "Warm was comfort and comfort was good. Warm led into a wonderful sexual turn on, where my entire body was alive and alert. This was one hour into the trip. This wonderful sexual turn on was the feeling of a bud about to unfold into a full-blown beautiful flower, which happened during love making."12mg orally: "Erotic world was fantastic, explosive, almost scary"


5-MEO-MIPT


" Extremely erotic", "tactile extraordinary"


LSD: no comment about erotism, but I guesssome may find it sensual.





PHENETHYLAMINES:


DOM


"the erotic was exceptional"


2C-B


"My body was flooded with orgasms-- practically from just breathing. The lovemaking was phenomenal, passionate, ecstatic, lyric, animal, loving, tender, sublime", "I am totally into my body. I am aware of every muscle and nerve in my body. The night is extraordinary--moon full. Unbelievably erotic, quiet and exquisite, almost unbearable. I cannot begin to unravel the imagery that imposes itself during the finding of an orgasm"


2C-C


" It seemed to be a very sensual place"


2C-D


"Somehow the intimacy and the erotic never quite knit"


2C-I


"I think there is slightly less than full immersion in the sensual, with this material, compared with 2C-B, but I suspect it's more a matter of getting used to the language of 2C-I and the feelings--getting tuned to a slightly different frequency, really-- rather than that the material is less sensual or less easy to use sensually."


2C-T-2


"Erotic lovely"


2C-T-7 No comment about erotism, but probably similar to 2ct2 and 2cb.


MDA


"The tactile sense is beautiful, but there seems to be some numbness as well, and I feel that nothing erotic would be do-able. Intimacy, yes, but no performance I'm pretty sure"


MDE No comment about erotism (probably similar to mda?)


MDMA No comment about erotism, but for sure it's a nice love drug.





Most people would think best sex RC's are 5-MeO-DiPT, 4-AcO-Dipt and2C-B (I would guess these would be more pleasurable in low dose so you're not to out of this world)...


other interesting stuff include 5meomipt, 4acomipt, 2ct2, 2ct7, dom and maybe 2cd which are pretty erotic too.Edited by: genaro

[ambrosius]

SWIM loves sex on LSD. The only problem is the person may last a bazillion times longer than usual, or 5 seconds. He didn't notice much of an increase in the tactile sense, however the orgam was spectacular.


SWIMwouldn't recommend it above 4 hits though.

[Sick Jack]

I experienced something a bit strange after making love while under 4-ho-dipt. Unfortunately I don't remember the dose, but it was probably between 20 and 30mg. Me and my girlfriend dosed and after 2 or 3 hours, began to make love. But just after reaching orgasm, the hallucinations totally stopped, although the trip should had last still 3-4 hours.

[Nagognog2]

4-OH-DiPT is known to be very short-acting. 3 hours is generally the total duration. Could you have this confused with, say, 4-OH-MiPT?

[Sick Jack]

Oh sh*t, I may be wrong concerning the timing. Because I remember that "theoretically" we were in the middle of the trip. I felt has after reaching orgasm, I just lost all my "energy".....

[kemistudent]

It is interesting how Shulgin is able to seperate "Erotica" from "Intimacy" during his experiences. When swim is experimenting it is hard for him to distinguish between the two, maybe becuase the intimacy is a given, and has to be present for him to even "go there" with another.

LSD and sex is ok, but it's too easy for swim to get distracted.

[MindCrime]

What a thread,

I'd just love to shit at Sasha's and Ann's feet and listen to them talk.

Hell I'd sit through one of there fights just to experience the interaction.

"Foxy" was very hot and Sasha's right about the orgasm.

2c-e was good for sex.

4h0-dipt Good for Sex.

bk_mdXX Great for sex in low doses...

Acid I think is the best.

MDMA is good for giving oral.

Thats my contribution