People- Some Supreme???

[dmtHELLA]

People are different. But there are two categories or people that have existed for quite some time. There are religions (Lutheran I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) that believe some people are destined for heaven while others are destined for hell. Other separations are that 13% of people will think for themselves while 87% follow the group. Is it right to think of these "followers" as lifeless sheep destined for destruction? Do you think there actually is a distinctive separation of people? Perhaps separated by the presence of a soul or not?

What are your thoughts on this issue?

[sandoz1943]

It seems to me this school of thought should go againt everything any good religion might have to offer. Who would want to follow a religion that would teach such a thing. This very categorization/seperation is what I find so wrong with most religions. The realization that we are all equal and learning to accept eachother is the only way for us to grow and truely reach our limitless potential as a species. This school of thought only divides us and makes us spiritually smaller. It only leads to the same line of thought that allows for easier "justification" for the atrocities we comit against eachother, animals, and the planet.

The whole idea makes no sense to me that you could believe the world was created by a god who would create some people who could never grow spritually. What purpose would this serve? Maybe someone could explain it for me.

I raised my children to always answer human when ever they were asked what race, nationality, or religion they were. I taught them not to allow themselves to be catagorized, labeled, or divided by those who can't or wont understand how important it is for us and the world not to allow them to make us "small"

Stand up and be big because you are part of something truely amazing weather it was by the hand of god or weather it just happened all by itself.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	beautiful. I will try to remember that answer when I have children.
	wonderfully stated

[Alicia In Wonderland]

I believe it's the Jehovah Witness's that say only a select few (144,000) will enter heaven. It is in the bible, but the only sect that I've heard that takes that piece of information literally is JW.
And no, I don't believe this train of thought whatsoever. What kind of hope does this bring people? A kind of life-long fail before they've even tried.

[welshmick]

Originally Posted by Alicia In Wonderland

I believe it's the Jehovah Witness's that say only a select few (144,000) will enter heaven. It is in the bible, but the only sect that I've heard that takes that piece of information literally is JW.
And no, I don't believe this train of thought whatsoever. What kind of hope does this bring people? A kind of life-long fail before they've even tried.

All religous people are mad/Bad or desperate - heaven my ass !

I had a discusion with a christian once who said heaven was like a nice street with peeps dressed in victorian costumes - weird or what.

I think heaven is like some nice asian girls and a couple of oz's of nice MJ.

[Nature Boy]

Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church probably thinks everyone, apart from himself, is going to hell. Who cares what religions think? They don't know about heaven or hell any better than anyone else who believes in the unlikely notion in the first place. Yes, there are some religions that have bizarre ideas about death and salvation but people don't tend to select these religions for themselves. They're usually born into them and indoctrinated from a very young age.

[Alicia In Wonderland]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

Yes, there are some religions that have bizarre ideas about death and salvation but people don't tend to select these religions for themselves. They're usually born into them and indoctrinated from a very young age.

I have notice this also. In most cases my religious friends have been "brought up" to believe in God. They were made to attend church, pray at dinner/bedtime, etc.
I on the other hand, did not have a religion forced upon me. My mother (who believes in, her words, a "divine being") believed that I should choose my own, to choose whatever religion felt right ,and after extensive studies in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, I have come to the conclusion (at least for now) to not believe in a God.

So is "faith" truly faith when it's something that people are fed from birth, or is it something that is found later in life?

[coelho]

Originally Posted by Alicia In Wonderland

So is "faith" truly faith when it's something that people are fed from birth, or is it something that is found later in life?

Thats a very good question... probably its one of the greatest differences between the "born-again" religious people and the "born and raised" religious people... and i personally think the first ones usually has much more "faith" than the later ones.

[dmtHELLA]

The mindless sheep we all see, does everyone agree they are inhabited by the same holy entity that inhabits ours? I, for one, grew up around these sheep and because of this developed a truman show esc superiority complex. I didn't understand why everyone did the things they did and although I conformed to survive I could never truly be one of them. This was VERY hard to throw off and accredited to various mind altering substances.

But my point is, some people just seem so hopeless. American youth for example, they are pure consumers of material goods. I see no soul in many of them. They seem to have lost all their spirituality to a point of no return.

Do we think that any person has the potential to change into more spiritually aware beings like ourselves?

[Sam Spade]

First of all, it is Calvinists who believe some are destined for heaven and some are destined for hell and there's nothing you can do about it. Lutherans are quite Liberal and accepting in many of their views. Look up the teachings of John Calvin for some real insight into the minds of sheep. It is where some Baptists derive their beliefs form.

And if you think about it, if all religions stopped we would still all be sheep because we would still all be following one single goal and somebody would be bound to take control. It works both ways just like being open minded does. Many people miss this completely. Religion is required to keep people different I think. The only problem is that people should learn to deal with not everyone having that same belief.

American youth for example, they are pure consumers of material goods. I see no soul in many of them. They seem to have lost all their spirituality to a point of no return. Do we think that any person has the potential to change into more spiritually aware beings like ourselves?

That is a rather arrogant statement and contradicts what you want. If you want peace, if you want people to think for themselves then you have to allow for different thought processes, ideas etc... Just because a person has experienced some form of drug and become spiritually enlightened does not make them less of a human being or less intelligent than you. None of us are more spiritually inclined simply because we tripped on LSD or something like that. We're still humans with faults as I just clearly pointed one out. Pride. One of the seven deadly sins.

By the way, I am an American youth and I disagree with your statement. American youth are nothing but that, youth. Teenagers that do stupid things, buy stupid things, and hopefully learn from their mistake. I see no differences in the way any teenager acts in any part of the world.

It's statements like that that separate us. So many people talk about what they want, then criticize the "unwashed masses" instead of helping them and educating them.

They're usually born into them and indoctrinated from a very young age.

By this argument you could also say that your conscious doesn't exists and that you're just indoctrinated into that as well. That would be a fun conversation.

I like this forum. It's exciting!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well-formed, intelligent, very much to the point and has quite a few good counterarguments!

[crackcityrocker]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

If you want peace, if you want people to think for themselves then you have to allow for different thought processes, ideas etc...

exactly. it seems like everyone has their niche and everyone outside of that niche is regarded as "other". just because other people believe different things, seem more shallow, more evil, more brainless, does not make it so. you have to understand that we're all hypocrites and sinners (if you believe in such a thing). you will never fully understand another person's "soul", regardless of how close you are to them. its not a coincidence that everyone has an ego, and that everyone feels superior/more enlightened/etc. to certain other people. its *very* difficult to get rid of this feeling, and, paradoxically, people that do attempt to tone down their egos often feel that the very act of them trying makes them superior to people that dont feel a need to.

righteousness is hard to escape.

[Sam Spade]

I myself am also an American youth, the same age as yourself. I am not making any claims or even pointing out my views I am simply asking questions towards the unknown. Drugs do not create spirituality but use the correct ones with the correct intent and yes, they will advance an individuals spirituality past your previous imagination. SWIM is living proof of that as SWIM is now in a conscious position never thought possible. There is no pride or bragging involved its simply a true statement. SWIMs ego has been permanently crippled after immense DMT, LSD, shroom, and DXM use. While in the beginning he was not sure how to advance, these substances taught him the ways.

There are ways to achieve these things without drug use. So I do believe that others can be just as "spiritual" as a drug user. Spirituality is a personal thing you have to find your own way. That would answer your question about my views in particularly.

I think you don't understand how bad the american youth is. When you surpass the need for these items you begin to see where everyone elses allegience lies. Put yourself in the position of anyone outside America. Think about how little they have and yet how happier they are. Do you not think this is because of the corruption these things bring? We work so much differently then any other child our age. In Africa the people our age have NOTHING and are fighting to survive. In the Middle East they are indoctrinated into the Muslim faith without their consent and are recruited by the Taliban. Asia, while having advanced technology, still does not even compare to the standard of living WE have. In India there is even more poverty. The only place that is close to us is Europe, which, mind you, is socialist so they get payed less and taxed WAY MORE. America is a ONE OF A KIND place. Do not underestimate the prosperity you were born in to.

I agree that most countries have it worse than Americans and anyone in Europe. But to say that just Americans are this way is ludicrous. Any industrialized, sophisticated nation is the same way. Europe is not a socialist continent! I mean no offense but this brings to question your actual knowledge of the subject. All Western and Central European countries are democracies of various kinds. They're just more Liberal than America. Canada isn't much worse than America. Their laws vary, but they are a prosperous nation as is Australia. Americans have it a bit differently but there are other nations just as sophisticated and close to as wealthy as us. I've talked to dozens of Europeans and Canadians. (No Australians but I'm a Heath Ledger fan and know quite a bit about him and how he grew up. He was Austrailian for those who don't know.) They talk, act, think, and make mistakes the same way American youth do. Our cultures do not vary that considerably. In most cases, people are the same everywhere. This is especially true when it comes to teenagers as there are so many things they are going through during that time. This doesn't change from country to country but it is fact and undeniable.

And so many are indoctrinated into the church during birth. I for one was promised to God as soon as I came into being and this was no choice of mine. I went to church for 18 years without a choice. Again, I am living proof that we ARE indoctrinated at birth.

I was in the exact same situation as you. But I had no trouble getting out of it as I knew how to think for myself. You clearly learned to as well if what you say is true.
to certain other people. its *very* difficult to get rid of this feeling, and, paradoxically, people that do attempt to tone down their egos often feel that the very act of them trying makes them superior to people that dont feel a need to.

Ha! I struggle with this constantly. It's quite annoying and contributed to my depression. But I'm slowly learning to deal with it. I may feel superior but I know that it's not necessarily true. Without other people to contradict me the world would be very boring and one sided and it took a little while for me to accept that.

[dmtHELLA]

I myself am also an American youth, the same age as yourself. I am not making any claims or even pointing out my views I am simply asking questions towards the unknown. Drugs do not create spirituality but use the correct ones with the correct intent and yes, they will advance an individuals spirituality past your previous imagination. SWIM is living proof of that as SWIM is now in a conscious position never thought possible. There is no pride or bragging involved its simply a true statement. SWIMs ego has been permanently crippled after immense DMT, LSD, shroom, and DXM use. While in the beginning he was not sure how to advance, these substances taught him the ways.

I think you don't understand how bad the american youth is. When you surpass the need for these items you begin to see where everyone elses allegience lies. Put yourself in the position of anyone outside America. Think about how little they have and yet how happier they are. Do you not think this is because of the corruption these things bring? We work so much differently then any other child our age. In Africa the people our age have NOTHING and are fighting to survive. In the Middle East they are indoctrinated into the Muslim faith without their consent and are recruited by the Taliban. Asia, while having advanced technology, still does not even compare to the standard of living WE have. In India there is even more poverty. The only place that is close to us is Europe, which, mind you, is socialist so they get payed less and taxed WAY MORE. America is a ONE OF A KIND place. Do not underestimate the prosperity you were born in to.

And so many are indoctrinated into the church during birth. I for one was promised to God as soon as I came into being and this was no choice of mine. I went to church for 18 years without a choice. Again, I am living proof that we ARE indoctrinated at birth.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

I was once approached by a fat man wearing a bible t-shirt asking me if I believed in 'the lord'. After I replied 'no' he said 'Ah- I suppose you believe in that monkey business?'

He was fat, ugly and stupid
I was slim, pretty good looking and very smart.

But, of course, in the eyes of the lord we were equal!

My point here is that people are inherantly unequal and that the desire for equality rests only with those who are naturally weak- for obvious reasons. There is a great Nietzsche quote on the subject, I can't remember it perfectly off the top of my head but here goes:

"Moral judgement, and comdemnation, is the favourite method of revenge of the spiritualy limited on those who are less so; likewise a form of compensation for their being so neglected by nature. In their hearts, they are glad there exists a standard against whom those who are overloaded with the goods and privilages of the spirit are their equals. They strive for the equality of all before God- and it is precicely for that reason that they need God."

Do not be afraid to feel superior. The weak people want you to be afraid of it, they want you to drag yourself down to their level, they want you to be modest. As long as you can keep your pride tied with the idea Sam Spade said: "Without other people to contradict me the world would be very boring and one sided and it took a little while for me to accept that." Then you are and will remain superior.

Think about it this way: If you are one of those people who has the ability to think for yourself to an unusual degree, would it not be such a waste to spend your life trying to help others who have no chance of thinking for themselves anyway? You would be sacrificing your potential for those who have none. Pointless waste!

Equality, modesty, pitty and the glorification of the average and mediocre. These are the values of weak people.

^Just my opinion^

[terrapinzflyer]

Was it mark twain who said "you go to heaven for the scenery and hell for the company"
And of course Marx said "religion is the opiate of the masses" - of course this was before TV
The o.p. made me think of the missionaries who travel the world to bring jesus to the people, then tell them that now that they know of the lord their savior- their going to hell if they don't follow him. Me thinks they were better off before...

I am not a big fan of religions- I think they are the root of many of the worlds problems when they become extreme- I see the religious right in america no differently the islamic fundamentalists they rail against. But there ARE many, many truths to be learned from religions- the major ones are mostly based on the lives of great men, and some of the more suppressed the lives of great women. I would have loved to have a sit down with jesus, buddha etc

At heart we are all (myself definetely included) deeply flawed human beings. And when we realize that and start looking for truth that is a good thing. It is when we start to see ourselves as superior, the chosen ones if you will, that things start to go bad...

[lostmente]

The OP didn't really make me think of religion at all, at least outside the idea of being human.

Terrance McKenna put it along these lines, that we're deterministic creatures who occasionally show free will. My lack of eloquence comes through there...but we cannot deny the determinents from our own and those whom we interact with. Yes we are all equal in that we have the capacity to choose, however we are not equal in what we have to choose and that is something we are supposed to be working towards as a society of human beings

[Sam Spade]

He was fat, ugly and stupid
I was slim, pretty good looking and very smart.

Please do not take offense to the words I am about to spout off. This right here is an example of being full of yourself. I must say, while I don't disagree with you about the superiority of some beings fat and ugly are not the words of a superior being but rather somebody who in all honesty feels rather inferior to others around him. Being slim does not equal superiority so that's a ridiculous remark. Good looking is a matter of opinion so that's besides every imaginable point. Being smart is quite often a matter of perspective as there are different kids of "smart" because there are so many billions of different people. Trying to make a point like that won't work as it only leaves you looking like you have a problem with your self-esteem or a severe inferiority complex.

^Just my opinion^

People are not inherently unequal. Every human on this planet means something. You have no idea how they could have effected somebodies life for the better. It's impossible to know. Judging human beings is a task that requires much study and research into a single specimen. That specimen in this case being a person.

Do not be afraid to feel superior. The weak people want you to be afraid of it, they want you to drag yourself down to their level, they want you to be modest.

This cannot be true. Consider this, a person who is judged to be "unequal" in your eyes does not realize they are unequal. If they're not up to your level then they cannot realize that they are inferior to you. Therefore, they can't be trying to bring you down to their level as they would be too dim to understand the concept. They simply don't understand your thinking processes and to keep their sanity guess what they do? They label you as an idiot in the process and to them you're nothing more than a confused distraught moron. This is quite often the case which is why people who are more intelligent than others are often shunned and I consider this to be fact. Just look through a history book and my point will be proven.

At heart we are all (myself definetely included) deeply flawed human beings. And when we realize that and start looking for truth that is a good thing. It is when we start to see ourselves as superior, the chosen ones if you will, that things start to go bad...

This right here is a great quote. I commend you and I will remember this.
Yes we are all equal in that we have the capacity to choose, however we are not equal in what we have to choose and that is something we are supposed to be working towards as a society of human beings.

This right here is what I want to get across but you said it in a much better way. Thanks.

[dmtHELLA]

Joe I completely agree. While being humble is important sometimes we must accept things such as being more intelligent, better looking, and being more creative, then others. Not to sound arrogant or full of myself but through my short life I have found that I am inherently of much higher intelligence, more visually appealing, and physically superior to the vast majority. This is not to say that there aren't countless out there whom are better at all a fore mentioned traits. These conclusions I have gained were, in fact, a sad thing I had to accept.

Whether I can thank my parents for the genes or thank my past life for being good, something happened which gave me this vessel that excels in all aspects.

Personally, I do believe that superiority is an objective and measurable trait. In this sense I mean beauty has to do with proportionality, physical potential is completely genetically based (as a personal trainer, I know this), and intelligence, while the origin is not yet known, can be measured in ways like IQ tests and SAT scores. I believe that if a mentally retarded person can be considered less intelligent then Stephen Hawking, then every person could be, if we dove far enough, separated and placed in increasing intellect. Now the problem is that intelligence can be in so many forms (creativity, math, music, reasoning, memory, philosophy) that it is impossible for us to ever compare 2 beings of similar mental capacity.

Joe, about the man who tried to give you the magazine, I can confidently say he did not think of you as an equal or superior, but instead viewed you as an inferior, and in his mind was trying to bring you to HIS level. Minds guided by religion act in curious manners...

[coelho]

Originally Posted by dmtHELLA

Personally, I do believe that superiority is an objective and measurable trait.

I hope that it not be, or at least, that society never believe it actually is.
Whenever "the system" find an efficient (and well "justifiable") way to segregate people, it will use it against people. Just remember how the belief that the Aryan race was "superior" to the other ones helped the Nazism to gain power and acceptance. The best way to ensure everybody has the same rights is to assume that nobody is "better" nor "worse" than anybody else.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by dmtHELLA

Personally, I do believe that superiority is an objective and measurable trait. In this sense I mean beauty has to do with proportionality, physical potential is completely genetically based (as a personal trainer, I know this), and intelligence, while the origin is not yet known, can be measured in ways like IQ tests and SAT scores. I believe that if a mentally retarded person can be considered less intelligent then Stephen Hawking, then every person could be, if we dove far enough, separated and placed in increasing intellect. Now the problem is that intelligence can be in so many forms (creativity, math, music, reasoning, memory, philosophy) that it is impossible for us to ever compare 2 beings of similar mental capacity.

Did you understand my criticism of the idea of objective superiority? It is an objective fact that some people are physically stronger than others. To say this makes them superior, however, is to add a value judgement. Essentially, you are valuing physical strength, mental ability or whatever, and this is and must be a subjective practice as all value is subjective.

So I think it depends whether or not you infer value from the definition of superior. If you don't then yes I completely agree with you.

Originally Posted by dmtHELLA

Joe, about the man who tried to give you the magazine, I can confidently say he did not think of you as an equal or superior, but instead viewed you as an inferior, and in his mind was trying to bring you to HIS level. Minds guided by religion act in curious manners...

I am sure he wanted to view me as inferior to him but I suspect that deep in his mind and heart he knew that really he was inferior to me. There is a very interesting Nietzschian concept called the 'reversal of values' which explains how and why people do such a thing: If a weak (ugly, stupid, whatever) person sees a strong person and recognizes their actions and values as being a reflection and indication of that strength then the weak person will label those values as 'evil' and claim that the opposite values (weak values which reflect and indicate weakness, such as modesty, pity, belief/need in/of equality, glorification of mediocrity, belief in suppressing and eroding instinct) are the true virtues. Yet in their hearts, the weak people know the depraved weak and disgusting nature of their self-delusion but they learn to channel the anger felt as a result of knowing this painful truth against the strong people and it continues so in a vicious cycle.

[nate81]

I too was raised to be christian. Most of the time it was just some fun thing we did on sundays (friends and a cool childrens class make it worthwhile to kids). Then when I grew up and I started reading that bible and thinking about it, I realized that it was largely crap.

I decided to abandon christianity and haven't looked back for a second. My relationships with my family lie in ruin. They are so set in their church lifestyle that they cannot imagine me being happy without it. They spend their spare money and their spare time on a church that hands the pastor a massive salary and his own private jet. They even paid for his lessons to learn to fly it.

Despite the deep insanities of religion, I do not feel superior. It's a matter of life experiences and environment that makes someone get involved with that stuff. It's possible that some people are more likely to be religious from some genetic quality, but I doubt it.

[dmtHELLA]

I hope that it not be, or at least, that society never believe it actually is.
Whenever "the system" find an efficient (and well "justifiable") way to segregate people, it will use it against people. Just remember how the belief that the Aryan race was "superior" to the other ones helped the Nazism to gain power and acceptance. The best way to ensure everybody has the same rights is to assume that nobody is "better" nor "worse" than anybody else.

Well. Segregation and separation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Segregation actually is a natural occurrence, as people tend to stay within their own groups. What I don't like about current segregation, is that it is based largely on race and religion, two things that do not, in any way, make people similar. If people could be separated based on intellect and willingness to work I believe many good things could follow. For one, all those people we went to High School with that distracted the rest from learning, they would no longer exist. The separation could simply be the educated, and the not educated (whether it be from not wanting to learn, or not naturally intelligent enough). The educated could continue to follow the current paths we follow now (except more efficiently and quickly, without being held back by the dumb), and the uneducated could be trained earlier on to hold more manual labor jobs that do not require much intelligence. I think that treating us as equals is an inefficient and detrimental procedure. We are all born with different traits, whether they be good or bad.

[coelho]

OK, but allowing the system to separate people in groups and giving each group different rights is a VERY dangerous thing... remember the system doesnt give a damn about who work for it, as long they work for it, so whenever the system deemed appropriate to change one persons "classification" for its own benefit, it surely would do it.
The fact one was intelligent, creative, and belonged to the "ruling elite" would not mean absolute stability there... in fact, most free thinkers, intelligent people, the ones who can think by themselves instead being controlled by the system are a danger to the system, so even if they helped the creation of a new society, and belonged to the ruling elite there, they still would be a danger, and nothing ensures after the new society were working this same free thinkers who helped the creation of this new society wouldnt be deemed as dangerous for this same society, and moved to a "potential threat" class, which would be far more controlled and monitorated than the usual "plain working people" class.

[dmtHELLA]

Well in order for this society to exist an entire different ruling class must be created. The rulers of this supposed society can not and will not want to be the rulers. The reason for this is simple, anyone who craves power and receives it will inevitably be consumed and corrupted by it. To fix this problem we would need an appointed class or ruler, who if it weren't for the needs of the people would gladly give up this position. The people who would find and appoint this ruler would have to be in a certain position that can not change no matter what the ruler deems or does. By enacting this type of government all personal gain and influence is gone. You may say this is impossible and nobody out there exists who could fulfill the job. Well there are plenty of people who could fit this description, lets say an Indian Guru or worlds smartest man or even a person like myself. Whoever runs for any position of government is not fit to be in the position. Instead of electing people who desire power, we must find and beg those that do not want it to accept it.

dmtHELLA added 4 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

So I think it depends whether or not you infer value from the definition of superior. If you don't then yes I completely agree with you.

On the contrary I believe that superiority is completely objective. If someone is physically stronger than another then he can complete an increased (measurable) amount of Work. To say that an increase of Work is not valuable is to say that to do nothing is the same as doing something. The same works for intellect, a smarter person can create a more efficient system, saving power, work, and/or energy. This is a measurable and objective trait.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by dmtHELLA

On the contrary I believe that superiority is completely objective. If someone is physically stronger than another then he can complete an increased (measurable) amount of Work. To say that an increase of Work is not valuable is to say that to do nothing is the same as doing something. The same works for intellect, a smarter person can create a more efficient system, saving power, work, and/or energy. This is a measurable and objective trait.

It is true that it is a measurable and objective trait. My point was that you have to bear in mind that this does not make you objectively of more value and therefore not objectively superior (assuming the word superior to imply of more value). If you value high strength and mental powers, then you will indeed value them but this is a subjective value judgement, as all values are.

I don't quite understand the sentence "To say that an increase of Work is not valuable is to say that to do nothing is the same as doing something."

Anyway I am claiming that it is not objectively valuable because there are no objective values.

[dmtHELLA]

K i mean that lets say 1 is capable of 500kj of work while 2 is capable of 300kj. So 1 is worth 200kj more in value. meaning to say its subjective and not necessarily objective is to say that 200kj=0kj. But you just showed that you knew that.

This argument is now on the basis of whether value is subjective (as you believe) or objective (as I do). But neither of this can really be proven in either direction so now it is in a sense a battle of will, which gets nobody nowhere.

It was fun and I do thank you all for the debate. But now my head hurts so im gonna go binge for a while.