my theory

[polloloco001]

so the generally accepted theory for how the universe began is the big
bang. and using the same evidence they also know the universe is still
expanding. so these atoms have been moving on certain trajectories for
billions of years from this one point where the big bang happened. and
atoms don't just decide what they are going to do, they respond to
physical forces like gravity. and all matter in the universe, as far as
i know, is made of atoms, and even if it's not i suspect it is
controlled by similar physical laws. so if humans are made of atoms,
they are not actually in control of their destinies, the "decisions"
they make are caused by chemical reactions of hydrogen and oxygen and
whatever else in your brain. and the atoms that make up the chemicals
in the human brain have been moving on set trajectories which are
governed by laws of the physical universe, since the big bang. but all
this begs the question, who designed this experiment which was put into
motion at the big bang? some kind of god or higher intelligence? or
maybe nobody at all, after all, a lot of things in the universe don't
make much sense and seem pretty chaotic, but perhaps that's jsut
becuase humans are so low on the chain of intelligent beings that we
don't have the capacity to grasp the absolute and total order of the
universe. i dont know if this makes much sense, i mean, im not a
scientist or anytihng, just a shroomer trying to figure things out.

[Solidly-here]

This Universe is self-contained ... OR, there is God.


Who created the Big Bang? The first (and easiest) answer is WHO cares? I can just wait until the scientists figure this answer out. They can view billions of years into the past, clone animals, create a myriad of chemicals ... certainly they will figure out the origin of the Universe.


If you want to jump ahead of the scientists, why? What's the difference? Does it matter how this Universe was created (and for what purpose)?


Religion is there for people who want to hope that the Universe was created for the explicit purpose of an Experiment: I will create man, and plop him on a planet run by worldly desires (greed, hornyness, lazyness, ...). Then I will see if he can transcend those desires (to a point) and see that love and compassion are what I am all about.


I believe that God exists. I do not have documents to prove this. In the spiritual life, religion is (one of) the driving forces. But there is a lot more about life than God. I live in this world, and I am surrounded by people (not God). So, I take my lessons learned in times where I feel inspired, and incorporate them into improving my relationship with people. After all, if God created me (a child of God), He also created others (children of God); therefore, we are ALL part of the manifestation of God.


Science can only give part of the answer to life. At best, they are living 8-to-15 billion years after the creation, looking at old light from distant galaxies (expanding at a speed resonably close to the speed of light), trying to figure out what happened billions of years before that. Good luck guys.

[billyloner]

Originally Posted by Solidly-here

certainly they will figure out the origin of the Universe

thise isnt necessarily true. the current theories state that the laws of physics break down at a singularity, meaning there is no way of knowing what came 'before' (if 'before' is really a valid term, considering the big bang created everything in our universe, including time). at least thats what i was taught at university. but these things change, and there could well be a new theory or two about singularities or indeed the big bang that have come about since i finished studying...

[boomer0]

if you haven't already seen it, you should check out the waking life, among many other awesome ideas they discuss the idea that humans would have no more free will than a bag of coal (we're both made mostly of carbon atoms, humans just have more complex arrangments), after all, our body's run using the same chemical and physical laws as any non-living thing. it also discusses a kink in this idea, since quantum theory tells us that atoms don't work in completely predictable ways, but rathar in probabalistic ways. it's all very interesting and complex, it seems like this gives us reason to believe in some sort of spirit or sould. i certainly feel like i make my own decisions; would it really be my destiny to question my own destiny? anyway, check out the movie, it's a real mindtrip.

[MescalinePirate]

I believe in a contingent being or thing, but believe it is very
unlikely to be one of the "gods" that most religions worship. I also
have doubt on the big bang being this contingent thing. Maybe the big
bang happened, but I'd say it's more like something caused by a
contingent thing or being.

[prospero]

The original premise put forward by polloloco001is that of determinism, which says that as everything is governed by the laws of physics, everything that has happened, and ever will happen, is completely predictable (if our physics is good enough). Quite apart from the fact that wave/particle dualityand the laws of quantum physics bring a randomness to everything anyway, it's also quite a big presumption to say that everything is governed by the laws of physics - because we only know what we know and don't knowwhat we don't know - so all sorts of other factors could be at large that we are completely ignorant of.


My own view is that until scientists can explain the concept of consciousness, everything they come up with is only of limited validity.

[Hyperreal]

Determinism only became a majorphilosophical problem in the 19th century. Before that, freewill was taken as a given; that's the position of all the Greek philosophers.Determinism was a consequence of the Newtonian world-view, which held that all events in the universe were caused by mechanical actions and reactions.


The way I see it, determinism is tied to Newtonianism; without the Newtonian view, there is no reason not to believe in freewill. Since Newtonianism was rubbished at the beginning of the last century by the theories of Einstein, Planck and Heisenberg, determinism should go with it. The current scientific view is that there are uncaused events in the universe. Determinism is contingent on all events being caused, not all events are caused, ergo determinism cannot be accepted.

[boomer0]

What events are you refering to which are not caused?

[uqlfy]

Originally Posted by boomer0

What events are you refering to which are not caused?

Nothing is caused. What is simply is. What was is. What will be is


A tree falls in the forest. The ground shakes because the tree fell. Why did the tree fall?

[polloloco001]

gravity. that is the cause. the components of the tree had become too
weak to sustain its own weight for one reason or another so it had to
fall. i have to disagree with you uqlfy. its my perspective that
everything is caused. everyhting has always had a cause in the large
scheme of things and on the atomic and molecular level. not to say
things "happen for a reason" like in the bible or on made-for-tv
movies. jesus did not die for our sins. jesus died because he pissed
off a group of people who had more power than him. you see what im
getting at?

[Pinkavvy]

you are the only one that can't see the back of your head.

nothing is true; everything is possible.
anything that is possible will happen in an infinate universe. existance is a mere chance that will end.

in the vortex of infinate reality, anything and everything can and will happen. the only thing that truely exists is non-existance, as it's the only true infinate. alter your perceptions to ride your life roller coaster as you see fit; as your perceptions are the only thing that is real to you. but it doesn't matter, as you are all just non-existant temperary votex loops of chance that i may or may not have imagined.

hail eris

all hail discordia

bless xeetcha

p.s. eris is laughing at you

Edited by: pinkavvy

[uqlfy]

Originally Posted by polloloco001

gravity. that is the cause. the components of the tree had become too weak to sustain its own weight for one reason or another so it had to fall. i have to disagree with you uqlfy. its my perspective that everything is caused. everyhting has always had a cause in the large scheme of things and on the atomic and molecular level. not to say things "happen for a reason" like in the bible or on made-for-tv movies. jesus did not die for our sins. jesus died because he pissed off a group of people who had more power than him. you see what im getting at?

I was trying to point out that sometimes there is no obviously visible cause to some occurences. This unseen cause is often reffered to as an act of god.


As for free will I do believe in free will. Here is why. One cause may have more than one possible effect. Any of those possible effects fit with the laws of action reaction. I choose my actions, I react to the effects of my action.