Questions about Subutex injection and 1/2 life.

[noddingPixie]

Hello all,
I'm new here to this amazing and informative community and have a question concerning SWIM!!! I do apologize if I am posting this in the wrong section!! I figured Opiate addiction best suits the question!! Ok, SWIM has been injecting about 8-12MG of Subutex for quite sometime following many failed attempts quitting H and then Methadone!! SWIM was wondering if injecting Bupe has any effect on the 1/2 life??? Does it leave the body any faster if iv'd??? Swim relapsed after 7 years when swim moved to Vegas because swim REALLY wanted to try some Black/Tar. SWIM NEVER had the chance to try Tar, for SWIM is from NY where SWIM never happened upon it!! Anywhoo, SWIM noticed that after iv'ing swims usual dose that the next morning SWIM was able to get high off of a shot of H!!! SWIM hasn't sublingually taken SWIMS meds in FOREVER and was just wondering if taking the Subutex, as perscribed (under the tongue) makes for a different/stronger hold onto SWIMS opiate receptors??? Also, SWIM thought that the Tar was a big waste of swim's time!! Thanks for your time!!!

[ex-junkie]

yeah when you inject subutex, its entering your system and reaching its full effect quicker than it would be sublingually. however in saying that, the bupe has quite a long half life, and if swiys dose is adequate enough to hold them for 24 hours, then theres not really a problem.

according to swims old opiate specialist, it doesnt do a great deal more if you do it IV, as opposed to taking it sublingually. same applies for methadone. at the most, you might feel a little bit toey approaching the time of the daily dose. so basically an IV dose would hold you for 1-2 hours less, than if you were to take it orally.

swim used to get high on buprenorphine. if you take the bupe first and then use, youre generally ok. however if you use first, then take the bupe, withdrawals are likely to occur. swim peaked at around 6-8mg of subutex from memory, and she was still able to get high. she took it sublingually though. she has friends who do buprenorphine IV everday, and theyre using less than what theyre being prescribed tbh. (they have maximum take home dose priviledges, because theyre testing clean for opiates).

swim has seen some benefits from people injecting their maintenance drugs. they use less heroin/if at all, and they are on smaller doses than people who take it orally. they have a stable financial situation, and maintain employment. this is just what swim has noticed, and should not apply to everyone, everywhere in the world of course.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good information about alternate methods of taking MMs
	very insightful!!

[noddingPixie]

Thank you for your reply!! I kinda figured that it changed the 1/2 life when injected cuz SWIM noticed it wore off a lot faster than when used sublingually. SWIM Used to get quite a nice rush from IV'ing her scripts untill SWIM stopped the Subs and did H. Now SWIM feels Pretty much nothing when she went back to banging her Subs!!! SWIM is fine with that because she is happy to not be in any discomfort from the lack of using the H!!!!!

[noddingPixie]

Also SWIM is clean now and is/always maintained a stable job/lifestyle while on Subutex!! You are right about needing less when injecting subs!! Thanks again!!

noddingPixie added 1 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...

SWIM has not used in a little over a week!! SWIM was 7 years clean, relapsed on the tar about a month ago, used for about a month and got back on her SUBUTEX a week ago!!

noddingPixie added 1 Minutes and 35 Seconds later...

Last tar use was last Sat.

[ex-junkie]

swim is sure buprenorphine affects you differently at different times. how long ago was the black tar use? how long did swiy use black tar for? how much did she use? also, is swiy on the same dose that she was before the black tar experience.

[noddingPixie]

Before SWIM started the H she was taking 8MG SUBS. once per day. Worked her way up to about 3-5 balloons a day on the H. Quit, waited for her to feel REAL shitty and started w/ 8mg SUBS. again. Felt alittle uncomfortable so did 4 mgs. more the first night and now is back to 8 mgs.

noddingPixie added 2 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

SWIM knows you are so very right about increasing her dose that's why she's back to her familiar 8mg's!! SWIM pondered the Methadone scenario but does not wanna go back down that road!! SWIM hates going to a clinic and can't find it anywhere!!

noddingPixie added 4 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...

SWIM has also heard this as well and swim likes the idea but can not get the Methadone unless she goes back on the program!! SWIM has a wonderful doctor who she get's her subs from.

noddingPixie added 3 Minutes and 42 Seconds later...

Have you ever heard of Darvon being used for detox?? I think that's how it's spelled SWIM once was given that @ detox years ago in NY

[ex-junkie]

ah. sounds like the black tar increased swiys opiate tolerance, so this is why the buprenorphine dose wouldnt be getting her high anymore. try to avoid increasing the dose to achieve the high, because the higher the dose, the harder it is to quit!

is the high really important to swiy? switching to a low dose of methadone for a few weeks, then back to the subs would work "in theory". by low dose swim means 20-30mg of methadone. if swiy feels uncomfortable on a low dose, then promethazine and chlonidine would level her out to a more comfortable state, and in the process reduce her buprenorphine tolerance.

"Previous studies have shown 8 mg sublingual buprenorphine to be equivalent to 60 mg oral methadone in terms of retention rate and opioid-negative urine levels".

http://www.opioids.com/buprenorphine/index.html

[ex-junkie]

is physeptone or morphine a possibility? just explain to the subs doctor that swiy doesnt want to increase her subutex dose, and wishes to remain on subutex. however, its not adequately holding her all day at present, and a short term switch to physeptone tablets at a lower dose could enable her to switch back onto the same dose of subutex and have it become effective again, maybe even with a lower dose than normal. if the doctor was aware of the plan and was willing to prescribe one of these alternatives for 2-3 weeks, then back onto the subs it could work?

physeptone are methadone tablets.

swim has never heard of darvon.

edit: according to wikipaedia, methadone also comes in sublingual form. if a doctor can prescribe buprenorphine sublingually, then why can they not prescribe methadone in the same way? in australia you got to go on the program regardless of whether its bupe, methadone, physeptone, and so on..

[noddingPixie]

SWIM will bring this up to her Doc. I just don't know how comfortable he will be prescribing Methadone but it can't hurt to ask!! Thank you very much for taking the time to share your ideas!! SWIM is very much greatfull!!

[noddingPixie]

Yes, I have a dear friend down under who has to go to his "Chemist" to take his Subs. I did not know Methadone is manufactured in a sublingual form. Does SWIY know the name of this???

[ex-junkie]

doctors are quite helpful as long as you tell them what your goals are. if swiy ask for some options, then explain the options swiy is considering, he/she should be helpful. a temporary swap of medication in order to prevent ones self from rising their current dose, is always going to be a better alternative then someone on a massive dose of anything. at the end of the day, doctors want to avoid their patients being on atrocious amounts of medication, and if they have their patients best interests at heart then they are generally cool to do such things.

of course the doctor will never understand IV use of maintenance drugs, but for some people it actually seems to benefit them, and if theyre not touching heroin then its a good thing.

[noddingPixie]

Absolutely!! SWIM knows this......., but............., just doesn't want her Doc. to be disappointed, for he has know swim to have stayed level @ 8MG Subutex for 4 years!!! SWIM is back at 8MG but would like to try something else!! SWIM likes the morphine/Methadone idea and is gonna suck it up and tell her doc. about her relapse at her next app..

noddingPixie added 1 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

Makes sense!! Methadone made SWIM(a very tiny girl) VERY VERY FAT!!! LOL!! SWIM did not LIKE!!!!!

[ex-junkie]

at a glance, it looks like its being trialled for pain management in cancer patients who are no longer able to swallow. doesnt look like its an option for addiction treatment yet. cant find any product name references aside from "sublingual methadone".

[ex-junkie]

swim usually would advise to be honest with the doctor about everything, but this could go against swiys favour in this case. the doctor would be less likely to give swiy take home doses for a start.

8mg of subutex for 4 years is all well and good, but for many people the same dose doesnt keep them stable, and an increase is more than often due. swim doesnt think that would seem out of the ordinary to the doctor, if swiy was to just say its not quite holding her like it used to. let the doctor do some urine tests, see that swiy is clean, and the level of trust is upheld. doctors have a tendency to not be so kind when the "trust is broken". using opiates is the trust breaker in this case, and the doctor might even assume that swiy is just looking to get high on the methadone/morphine. you cant blame the doctors for having this attitude, they see it alot.

[noddingPixie]

This is SWIMS point!! SWIM does not wanna lose her doc's trust!! SWIM is now clean and is willing to prove it!!!

[ex-junkie]

voluntary urine tests that come back clean are swiys friend.

when you prove yourself clean, the doctor is more likely to be more understanding towards your situation, and you get more priviledges. swim used to get 6 methadone take aways a week. thats one chemist trip a week. fucking lovely. when she came off methadone, she admitted to using it IV, her doctor just laughed and said, "im going to tell the health commission, so if you end up back on this shit, you aint getting no take home doses sweety".

its one thing to earn the doctors trust, but its another thing to abuse it. so be very careful, and do swiys best to avoid anymore smack!

[noddingPixie]

MY doc. is a private one. He doesn't do UA'S!! Not that I know of at least!!!!

[ex-junkie]

he could do a blood test then. usually theyll just send you down to the toilet with a container and ask you bring your pee back. if they require it to be supervised, then theyll send you to a pathology place that does it.

mind you this is in oz.

[noddingPixie]

True True!! Sorry for the delayed response!! SWIM got interrupted!!!!!

[H Bomber]

SWIM has abused the shit out of buprenex, an injectable buprenorphine preparation, and also been comfortably maintained on suboxone. In his opinion, the IV didnt keep him straight as long as the suboxone. Comparing single doses, Suboxone "holds" him for around 24-36 hours, the IV preparation "held" him for around 16-24 hours.

[DeeZee]

Did any SWIY ever manage to switch off heavy H use directly onto buprenorphine, without any withdrawals as a result or anywhere in between?

I'm asking about heavy H use till the last moment, then next day directly starting with buprenorphine, no waiting in between....

Did anyone do this without severe WD's as a result?

[ex-junkie]

^that would depend on the starting dose, and whether or not its using temgesic or subutex.

[DeeZee]

SWIM says starting dose was an 8mg pill of Suboxone (buprenorphine + naloxone) sublingually late at night, on the last day of H use, another 8mg Suboxone pill sublingually in the morning (he slept very well) and then a lot of Subutex (buprenorphine only) snorted in 4mg portions the next day..

SWIM can't recall preciselly, but he knows he used way more than his usual daily dose (= 24mg as prescribed by the good doctor) the first few days after switching... So much in fact, that while the last of his Subutex should last for 10 days, it only lasted 5 or so.


Then all SWIM was left with was more Suboxone, and SWIM continued with Suboxone, but at a much lower dose of 8 - 12mg per day, snorted in 4mg portions, and dropping.


What SWIM can't understand is how it is even possible, that he didn't feel ANY physical withdrawals whatsoever, how the withdrawals started where they usually end (the emotional part). Basically, SWIM was ready for 2-3 days of hell, which he experienced, when he first stopped H over two years ago. Also, SWIM clearly recalls that at the start of the substitution therapy, he once bought some H and used it (and no Subutex) for like 5 days, and when it ran out, SWIM continued with Subutex, and suffered for two days. SWIM hasn't used H since that incident in the beginning of the substitution therapy right till the beginning of this year.


But now, SWIM was on H for five months and on a much larger dose than ever before, but he switched back to subutex (after finally gathering the courage), only to realize that no withdrawals were coming...


BTW, SWIM doesn't understand the difference between Temgesic and Subutex - both contain only buprenorphine. All SWIM ever got was Subutex until the start of this year, and Suboxone afterwards... There is no such thing as Temgesic in this country.


Anyway, there were a few things SWIM did before the switch, but none of them were with the intention of easing the WD's (but may have contributed big time). There was also this one thing SWIM did during the switch, with the intention of easing the WD's, but it shouldn't have helped nearly as much.


But first SWIM would like to know if such a painless switch is even possible, or if the only explanation is, that those other things made it possible...

[ex-junkie]

well sometimes withdrawals are avoided. this is not always the case though, so dont think that swiy can beat it everytime. put it down to luck basically.

temgesic come in 0.2 mg tablets, subutex comes in 0.4 mg, 2 mg, and 8 mg. the only difference is the dose. obviously a 0.2 mg temgesic tablet would be a huge difference in comparison to an 8 mg subutex tablet.

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by ex-junkie

so dont think that swiy can beat it everytime. put it down to luck basically.

SWIM doesn't want to repeat that thing ever again. SWIM is just lucky he got off so easily. If he knew he could do it, he would have done it much sooner...

Altho SWIM is not putting it down to luck, but rather to what he did in the days before the switch and on the day of the switch...


SWIM is very happy to be off H, doesn't like to be on it, it was just the WD's that scared him. And SWIM is even happier, that his buprenorphine dose is now halved if not less!

SWIY can be sure, that SWIM doesn't want to repeat the relapse in any way ever again!

SWIM did a stupid thing - on New Years he visited his ex-GF of 10 years, after only half a year of being appart, and afterwards SWIM just couldn't leave the city without buying, due to emotional damage. From that point on, the only thing that kept making him go back was the fear of WD's..

But now that SWIM is happily (and easily) off H again, he has zero desire to ever go back again.