Opinions - Peyote fact check

[maverick21]

SWIM is looking to try peyote for the first time. He has gotten a hold of a legal grower who seems passionate and knowledgeable, but would like to hear the input of users on this forum.

The grower has a selection of hard-grown 3-4cm plants (Lophophora Williamsii). SWIM has read that the plants should be much bigger before consuming. However, the grower has told him that due to proper growing techniques, the plants mature in 2-3 years as opposed to ten or more. The grower also told SWIM that 5-6 plants would be sufficient dosage for a moderately strong trip, provided the plants were slowly deprived of moisture over the period of two months, the last month of which the plant would be completely deprived of water. The grower said that when the plant is stressed, aklaloid contents vastly increase.

SWIM is cautious because it will cost around $XXX to obtain 6 plants, and SWIM doesn't want to pay the money and go through the work of maintaining the plants for two months only to find that nothing profound occurs upon consumption. SWIM would like to hear from those with any expertise on the subject to see if what the grower told him holds validity.

[Drats]

SWIM read several books and articles about Lophophora wiliamsii, it seems that it needs to flower to contain mescaline. If the cacti had no flowering yet, it only contains few Mescaline. Also every year and every flower raises the amount of mescaline in the cacti.

Also several years ago some dutch cacti growers raised the mescaline content of those cacti extremly. It seems that injecting Dopamine seems to raise the content. Somehow the cacti can transform it into mescaline.

The information with Dopamine is taken out of the book "Peyote und andere psychoaktive Kakteen" written by Adam Gottlieb. I´m gonna translate the part with the Dopamine here (don´t think the book is available in other languages as well):

"There are various factors which have influence on the mescaline content and the content of the other alkaloids. As much different trace elements as possible is important. You can just put an A-Z concentrate into the water from time to time. One part concentrate and nine parts water, every two months.
Tests from Rosenberg, McLaughlin and Paul in 1966 at the university of Michigan, shown that Dopamine is a precursor of Mescaline in the Peyote, also Tyramine and Dopa (Dioxyphenylalanine) are precursor, but they are not so fast acting as Dopamine. It seems like that Tyrosine is transformed in the plant to Tyramine and Dopa. These are further transformed to Dopamine, whcih than is changed to Nor-Mescaline and in the end transformed to Mescaline. A lot of growers use this knowledge and start injecting Dopamine 4 weeks before the cacti is harvested. A big part of the Dopamine is changed to Mescaline, this leads to a remarkable raise of the alkaloids.
A saturated solution of free-base-Dopamine in a 0,05 N Hydrochlorid-Acid-solution is used for injection, 1 - 2 cubic centimeters are injected into the root of the plant. The same amount is again injected into the green part, directly above the root. The needle is imported until it reaches the center of the cacti, the solution hast to be injected slowly. After the injection the needle can remain in the cacti for several seconds. It´s adviced that the cacti was not watered for about 1-2 weeks before the injection......"

Further the book explains how to make the same progress with Tyramine and Dopa. The regular amount of Mescaline is about 1% in the dried plant material, but it can reach up to 6%. So the dosage may vary heavily, also if the cacti had been injected with Dopamine it will lower the dosage extremly. Traditionally the Peyote had been chewed all night long, so the effects came slowly and the dosage was not a problem.
SWIM had heard of a injected peyote, it was only 8 years old, but through the injection it was more than enough for one person.
Oh the injection method can also be used with T. pachanoi and T.peruvianus, here you have to inject every 10 centimeters spirally up the cacti.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good info, thanks for translating

[maverick21]

Thank you for the informative post.

However, SWIM would still like to know whether what the grower told him sounds valid -- that young plants can contain mescaline and that the alkaloids can be significantly increased by stressing them. SWIM is cautious that the grower may be scamming him into buying a hefty amount of plants.

[Drats]

Well the content of my post is, SIWY never knows if it´s worth or not. Only if SWIY did it by himself he knows what he can expect. So Swim wouldn´t advice to buy them, a T.pachanoi or T.peruvianus is cheaper and if it doesn´t contain enough alkaloids SWIY didn´t wasted a huge amount of money. Also if SWIY still decides to buy them, he should be carefully harvesting the "Buttons" to not damage the root and the cacti continues to live and will create new "Buttons".

[maverick21]

SWIM decided to look into Peruvian Torch. He found a source that was quite expensive (although not so much as peyote). However, the seller was not at all helpful so SWIM decided to take his business to the peyote grower. He will "stress" the plants for a couple of months before consuming them, and then relate his experience to me so I can post it here. Thanks for the help.

[maverick21]

SWIM finally found time in his schedule to consume some peyote with friends. After stressing the plants as per the directions of the grower, SWIM and two others each consumed six plants. They had all fasted for at least 12 hours and thoroughly chewed the plants. They consumed all of the cacti over the period of about 20 minutes, and to their surprise found that no noticeable effects occurred whatsoever, negative or positive.

SWIM and his friends spent a relatively large sum of money on the plants and they all would have been more satisfied if SOMETHING, anything had happened, even if all it meant was a little gut rot, yet even that was too much to ask for, it seems. SWIM highly recommends others to try some other route if they would like to experience a psychedelic cactus, as the grower they purchased peyote from seemed very knowledgeable indeed. SWIM does not doubt that what the grower sold him was in fact Lophophora Williamsii but is convinced that the proper dosage of 3-4cm plants would likely be in the range of 30 or so per person to achieve something profound. That is merely his experience and is, of course, not necessarily fact. But SWIM would like to warn anyone who is thinking of buying some hard grown plants that it does seem very difficult indeed to get high off them.

[Kada]

they don't get strogner with every flower. IN fact some people say they prefer the smaller ones (granted they are wild grown) cause they are easier to put in ones mouth and chew.

3-4 cm are big enough, for sure.

6 plants that small is not enough for 3 people, in my opinion.

they don't need to be stressed. just cut the tops off and dry them.

because you bought the plants, you can still grow them if you only cut the tops and left a little green area. they are slow, but if your interested in the plant you can still grow them and continue use later on.

next time to be sure weigh the *dried* plants. count on say 1.5% mesc in peyote, varies but its a good number to estimate with. generally 200mg is a good starting dose, up to 500. 200-300 probably best to start with. so 1.5% of cactus equally 200mg of mescaline is about 15 grams (thats a rough guess). 2 dried buttons that size i would guess to be around 8-10 grams, only guessing though.

better luck next time

[maverick21]

Just to clarify, we had 18 plants for three people, so six each, with no effect.

[Kada]

thats strange, 6 should have likely done it....i wonder the seller seems to be saying a lot of BS, i wonder if you were sold another Lophophora species? are the people you got it from reputable?

3-4 cm is certainly mature enough, and i would have thought 6 plants would equal at least 30 grams dried... perhaps not. curious to know why nothing happened, did you dry/weigh or get pictures or anything?

[maverick21]

There does happen to be an image of the plants in question:

[Kada]

im stumped. those are williasmii and big enough. they look to be quite bloated, as many nursery cacti are (grown under lower temps and more water to get bigger plants faster)..even so, swim has found that size to be quite effective int eh past. i feel sorry for you, too bad it didnt work out. maybe ask the vendor if he knows why? or try trichs next time until you get a dose worked otu to base things on (recomend using dry and weighing things for easy referrence later on).

[D.A.R.E.]

Did they have large tap-roots? Or regular plantlike roots? hard to tell in pic but they look like they are curving in near the bottom. If they were just rooted from grafts swim could see why they may be weak.

swim also thinks 6 dry 3-4cm buttons would weigh more like 10-12 grams

[peyotl123]

it looks to me like youve got a load of lophophora diffusa. i might be wrong though

[earthsfc]

Swim thinks that just because they are 3-4cm doesn't mean that they are mature. Swim has never seen a lophophora mature before 5 years 5 seems to be the magic number. Swim does believe in stressing the cacti before harvest but it requires time usually strung out over a year. Swim likes to deprive them of water and raise the temp. Don't give up. Swim thinks you needed to wait just a bit longer. Hopefully the vendor still has stock.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good advice

[peyotl123]

to get the best results from peyote swim thinks it is best to only use cacti that are 10 yrs or older.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good advice

[maverick21]

SWIM wonders what the grower would have to gain by selling him diffusa instead of williamsii, when both are legal to grow in his home country. He also says that about half of his plants survived the harvest and are slowly growing new heads. He's wondering if, in the future, he decides to consume them, how does he calculate their age? If he eats them in 2 years, does he consider them 2 year old plants, or does he calculate right from when the seeds were planted?