Oral use - Recycling Psychedelics by Drinking Urine - Not Just Amanitas

[helikophis]

Someone I know is on a mailing list and he received this email, and then passed it along to me. It's fourth-or-more hand information, and I don't know any of the people involved, so I can't vouch for the info in any way. I found it pretty interesting though.

Anyone have further information?

Hello to all in the mushroom/entheogen research field. There is a point that I would like to address regarding urine and recycling (as with Amanita) that I feel needs to be brought to everyone's attention.



Last month as I was finishing up Carl Ruck and company's last book The Hidden World , which is fantastic, but I caught something on page 226 that needs addressing and is important for everyone to have correct in this field. It seems that of the major researchers in the field, Andrew and I in Astrotheology & Shamanism, 2006/2009, aside from the two below references, are the only ones to have pointed this out (if I’m missing anyone, please forgive me). Amanitas are not the only mushrooms (or entheogens) that can be recycled. In fact, many entheogens can be recycled – including mescaline – and most probably ayahuasca (as a friend has reported to me).



Orion was born from the grave, and he took his name from this strange conception via urine; in Greek, his name is Ourion, derived from the verb ourein or ‘urineate.’ This is surely an authentic tradition because of its bizarreness, since his name could more easily be related to the word for ‘mountain,’ ouros. The conception involves the perpetuation of the fly-agaric’s toxins in shamanism as the metabolite in urine, which is always the most telling, if nevertheless embarrassing, detail, often misunderstood or retracted by the very informants who dared divulge the secret.

Carl Ruck, et al, The Hidden World , pg. 226



I have personally recycled Psilocybe mushrooms on a few occasions to test this theory (once in the last several months), and recycling can create a very powerful experience that is somewhat different than eating fresh Psilocybes. I’ve experienced Psilocybe mushrooms for 8 to 12 hours by recycling (re-up-taking the urine up to 4 times in one sitting), as opposed to their normal 4 - 6 hour duration.



The idea that Amanitas (ibotenic acid) are the only ones that can be recycled is outdated information. When we begin to include Psilocybe (and other entheogens) in our interpretations – such as the fairytales and myths presented in Ruck, Celedran, and Hoffman’s book, it opens up many new avenues for interpretation that are not Amanita exclusive.



As we note in Astrotheology & Shamanism:



Kelly Ivors, Ph.D., suggested in a lecture in Oregon that Psilocybe mushrooms can be recycled as well. Psilocybin (4-Phosphorloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine) also decarboxylates, and it seems this is the difference between it and Psilocin (4-Hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine). [1] It was previously believed that only Amanitas possessed this characteristic.

Astrotheology & Shamanism by Irvin and Rutajit, 2009, pg. 168 (also in 2006 version)



[1] This was also verified by Sahsa Shulgin at the Telluride Mushroom Festival in 2000.



This 'Amanita only' recycling interpretation is also found in Ruck’s Melusina of Plaincourault video (and book chapters) filmed by Peter Webster.



I suggest a field wide study of entheogens that can be re-consumed and then reanalyze the data (myths, legends, history - as well as other cultures) for other/additional possible interpretations of recycling. This certainly seems to be a very important area for further inquiry.

[EscapeDummy]

Maybe if there were some sort of (sterile, clean) extraction, otherwise SWIM would never even consider this.

[Ally420]

heh i once asked erowid about this for mescaline as well but got no reply.

If i had to guess i would suggest that only substances with "prodrug" effects like ibotenic acid would work this way in any real practical sense otherwise collection would be over too wide of a window to be practical... that and extract methods would help.

i know this is also second hand but: i read a story in the news a few years ago about a meth head blowing himself up attempting to extract amphetamines from his urine. i believe he survived but did destroy the motel room he was in.

[Macee]

Originally Posted by EscapeDummy

Maybe if there were some sort of (sterile, clean) extraction, otherwise SWIM would never even consider this.

Just Pointing out that Urine is sterile upon leaving the body.

[Potter]

Urine is surprisingly clean, if Dan Savage of Savage Love had a decent search engine on his blog I'd cite one of the top sexperts out there, but I don't feel like reading back through the past few years of articles to his last mention of golden showers. There is little to no disease risk associated with urine (other then fatal cooties or a case of The Gays*)

Of course as to whether it's a good idea to drink pee is up for debate. In the east it is considered a commom health practice, India just released a urine soft drink for this reason, in the east eating rhino penis is also a "health practice". It could be argued that pee is bodily waste and drinking waste is a bad idea.

*if the urine came from someone the same gender as you, it totally makes you gay, even if it wasn't sexy urine.

[fnord]

Ive been told MDMA is excreted with a large portion of it unchanged in the urine,as well as methamphetamine,some meth users actually extract meth from there urine!

http://wcco.com/topstories/methamphe....2.364913.html

Reputation Comments on this post:

adds a new idea to the thread, good fact

[Desertfox]

Couldn't one evaporate the urine and ingest the resultant product? SWIM would imagine it would be impure with urea being the main constituent, but still seems more palatable then drinking your own urine.

[terrapinzflyer]

SWIMS friend used to have a dog that seemed to enjoy getting high. The ONLY time she would ever drink from a toilet was when swim and co were doing drugs. Swim had noticed her proclivity for getting high before, but it was one night on Ibogaine that the toilet thing was first noticed...

Reputation Comments on this post:

interesting tidbit

[Phungushead]

"In the high-dose study of rats, all but 6 percent of the psilocybin was
excreted within twenty-four hours. In humans, only 80-85 percent psilocybin
and its metabolites is excreted within eight hours: about 65 percent in urine,
and about 15 to 20 percent in bile and feces. Some 15 to 20 percent lingers
on, stored in fatty tissues. Significant quantities appear in urine up to a week
later. A full 25 percent of the originally administered dose enters urine as
psilocin." - Peter Stafford; Magic Mushrooms

Assuming the above is accurate, reclamation/recycling could be possible...

[Valseedian]

swim has successfully recovered psilocybin in this manner by drying the urine and extracting/filtering using first water and then ethanol. output is minimal, but worth it if you are willing to dry alot of piss.

[Potter]

While this thread is degenerating into the baser practices, anyone care to share techniques on drying out urine with out stinking to high hell? The Doktor has found old urine samples that had been misplaced for a few weeks and they were awful rank.

Boiling isn't going to work, the heat will destroy the goodies.

Any ideas of an additive to keep down bacteria that won't ruin the final product? Adding alcohol would seem logical, except we're trying to remove liquids and the alcohol will evaporate before the water.

What sort of solid residue quantities are we looking at? Might it be possible to simply gelcap it without further cleaning? How bad could consuming the undesirables be (especially in solid form?)

Eating asparagus is probably best avoided before attempting this, The Straight Dope will shed some light on scented pee.

For example, Benjamin Franklin, in a wide-ranging discussion of bodily discharges, once noted, "a few stems of asparagus eaten shall give our urine a disagreeable odor; and a pill of turpentine no bigger than a pea shall bestow upon it the pleasing smell of violets."

It is said that in a venerable British men's club there is a sign reading "DURING THE ASPARAGUS SEASON MEMBERS ARE REQUESTED NOT TO RELIEVE THEMSELVES IN THE HATSTAND."

Serious scientific research in this field dates back to 1891, when M. Nencki tentatively identified a compound known as methanethiol as the culprit. The odor appears within an hour after eating just a few spears of the offending vegetable.

According to Allison and McWhirter (1956), the ability to produce the odor is controlled by a single autosomal (i.e., non-sex-related) dominant gene. In a sample of 115 persons, 46 were rendered fragrant by asparagus and 63 were not. (This leaves 6 mysteriously unaccounted for. Urology is an inexact science, I guess.)

In 1975 one Robert H. White, then with the chemistry department at the University of California at San Diego, found that the odor-causing chemical was not methanethiol after all.

Instead, using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (Bob was obviously not one to screw around), he found that the aroma was in fact caused by several S-methyl thioesters, specifically S-methyl thioacrylate and S-methyl 3-(methylthio)thiopropionate.

(Thioesters are compounds that result from the reaction of an acid with a sulfur-containing alcohol. They tend to be smelly.)

I know you are very interested in all this stuff and are following me closely, F., so I am going to give you the exact chemical formulation for these chemicals, in case somebody asks you at some fancy social soiree.

The thioacrylate recipe is:

CH2=CHC(=O)SCH3

The thiopropionate is:

CH3SCH2CH2C(=O)SCH3

We are faking the above somewhat given the limitations of the ASCII character set, but I know you are grateful for whatever information we can provide.

Anyway, sez Bob, the "metabolic origin [of the compounds--i.e., how and why they end up in the urine] remains an open question." I can't exactly say that research is continuing, but if anything develops I'll let you know.

— Cecil Adams

Turpentine making you smell of violets? Massively intriguing, but is it safe? Mr. Franklin has never led me astray before, but he did live in a very different time when Mercury and Bloodletting were still acceptable medicine.

[DaveDaPsychonaut]

Originally Posted by Potter

While this thread is degenerating into the baser practices, anyone care to share techniques on drying out urine with out stinking to high hell? The Doktor has found old urine samples that had been misplaced for a few weeks and they were awful rank.

Boiling isn't going to work, the heat will destroy the goodies.

Any ideas of an additive to keep down bacteria that won't ruin the final product? Adding alcohol would seem logical, except we're trying to remove liquids and the alcohol will evaporate before the water.

What sort of solid residue quantities are we looking at? Might it be possible to simply gelcap it without further cleaning? How bad could consuming the undesirables be (especially in solid form?)

Eating asparagus is probably best avoided before attempting this, The Straight Dope will shed some light on scented pee.


Turpentine making you smell of violets? Massively intriguing, but is it safe? Mr. Franklin has never led me astray before, but he did live in a very different time when Mercury and Bloodletting were still acceptable medicine.

Quite interesting...turpentine is toxic though so that would be better off avoided. What else could make a person's urine smell good (Or better, haha)? Would it taste better too?

[Mrak]

After reading all this a desperate chick swim knew went and hung out at her meth dealers place, where there was a lot of people coming in and out and lots of meth taking going on, and she just hung out there (she was broke) and anytime someone needed to take a pee, she would drink it.

She said after the first first 3 or 4 meth addict bladder emptyings, she said she was high as hell, and drinking other people's urine intermittenly (we're talking probably like a gallon) kept her going for 3 days, after which she had to stop cause of the levels of urea building up in her body were making her sick, probably because she wasn't just drinkinging the pee of everyone there, she was drinking all her own piss as well, and it was second generation urine, a concentration of all the waste products from all of the other people's piss she drank.

Yeah, people with no shame and no money can apparently use this method to get high off of other's waste, but a high level of desperation is indicated here.

[cra$h]

so what would the yeild be? I'm not sure about psylocibin doses in mg or what ever per mushroom, but if theoreticly one could retrieve 1/2 of the original dose or more, this would turn out to be a lot more interesting.

I found a little article off a simple google search. Swim's still trying to translate it to laman's terms, and some help would be nice!

Active compounds of some mushrooms e.g. Psilocybe cubensis, Paneolus subalteatus or Stropharia coronilla, the psychotropic agents psilocybin and psilocin, have hallucinogenic effects. In one case of ‘magic mushroom’ intake, we had to analyse blood and urine. Psilocin was detected in the urine with REMEDi HS. Most of the psilocin was excreted as the glucuronide. Therefore an enzymatic hydrolysis should be the first step in analysis. Free psilocin was determined at a concentration of 0.23 mg/l while the total amount was 1.76 mg/l urine. The concentration of psilocin in serum was too low for detection with REMEDi HS. We proved a GC–MS-method with d3-morphine as internal standard and silylation with MSTFA. Similarly to urine, most of the psilocin in serum was found in the conjugated form. The concentration of free psilocin was 0.018 mg/l, that of total psilocin, 0.052 mg/l serum.

[ShroomShaman666]

What im someone was to take the urine and boil it in a pot of water until it was like less than a liquid ounce than added lemon juice, grapefruit juice, etc. whatever u wanted to mask the taste. would this method work or would the heat from excessive boiling destroy the chemicals needed?

[Ally420]

Originally Posted by ShroomShaman666

What im someone was to take the urine and boil it in a pot of water until it was like less than a liquid ounce than added lemon juice, grapefruit juice, etc. whatever u wanted to mask the taste. would this method work or would the heat from excessive boiling destroy the chemicals needed?

It would not mask the taste. Don't underestimated the potency of the smell and flavor of concentrated pee.

[Valseedian]

Originally Posted by ShroomShaman666

What im someone was to take the urine and boil it in a pot of water until it was like less than a liquid ounce than added lemon juice, grapefruit juice, etc. whatever u wanted to mask the taste. would this method work or would the heat from excessive boiling destroy the chemicals needed?

evaporation was achieved via a heating blanket in an un-inhabited garage. scent control was not even a concern.

encapsulating dried urine without further cleaning shouldn't cause any issues as drinking straight urine is advocated in many civilized countries... urine is sterile, and some people swim has talked to says it's taste isn't too undesireable when you get to the point when you're desperate enough to do it.

[Samadhi]

This has been discussed before and the conclusion reached was; until proven that one can reasonably drink their own or someone elses' urine to get the minute amounts of psilocin/any-other-chemical-excreted in the process deserved a nobel prize for needless and grossly tedious work in the field of random.

It can be done somehow and one probably can isolate and or get high off the drug-infused-urine, but most likely, they will get alot of pissy (PUN!) results and until then and still remains a confusing urge to me.



"Drink deeply from the bear urine and it will fill your spirit with pride"
"Bear urine?!"
"no, just kidding, it's fresca..."
(everyone spits out the drink)

[Nemba]

But what about collecting uring from a group of people, and then performing an acid/base extraction on it? Is urea soluble in nonpolar solvents? Not very, SWIM thinks, and you only have to use a tiny bit of it.

Say SWIM collected urine from 10 people and evaporated that to 1L or some manageable size, then did an a/b, would it be at all likely he end up with 2-5 doses again, with relatively little urea and other contaminants?

[Valseedian]

Originally Posted by Nemba

But what about collecting uring from a group of people, and then performing an acid/base extraction on it? Is urea soluble in nonpolar solvents? Not very, SWIM thinks, and you only have to use a tiny bit of it.

Say SWIM collected urine from 10 people and evaporated that to 1L or some manageable size, then did an a/b, would it be at all likely he end up with 2-5 doses again, with relatively little urea and other contaminants?

swim had thought about doing an A/B to precipitate the actives... the urine would still have to be evaporated down to a manageable amount.


collecting a group's urine will help, but a portion of the active is either used up, stored or not immediatly excreted.. by swim's guesses/data he says the loss is probably about 60% of the origional dose. this ofcourse, depends fully on how much you've had to drink and how long it's been since you've dropped.... you've also got to account for the portions excreted outside the urine (ie, sweat, tears, feces and through respiration)

[Ally420]

Relevant articles:

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/abstract/44/2/287
http://www.icadts2007.org/print/post...palkaloids.pdf
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/19/3/340.pdf

Super critical fluid extraction tho seems to be the preferred way most of the time.

[Ally420]

With amanita the use of recycled urine is at least partly to avoid the toxic toll of eating straight amanita mushrooms but with most other drugs it would be about the recycling of product. more bang for the buck, more hero for the euro.

[BloodyMuffin]

Now while drinking pee is technically sterile, and probably won't damage you if you don't do it too often you need to realize something. If i have my biology right (and i may not) pee is the body's way of eliminating amonia. therefore recycling it a few times may work, but you could not consistently drink your own pee for a long duration because you would just be putting the amonia back into your system. this causes amonia poisoning which leads to internal bleeding. ever forgotten to change a fish's water for too long? that's why they die. amonia builds up and kills them over time.

"Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No but I do anyway, coz it's sterile and I like the taste!" reference anyone?

[eewdelphis]

"Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No but I do anyway, coz it's sterile and I like the taste!" reference anyone?

The very excellent movie, Dodge Ball (spoken by Rip Torn)

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball." LOL!

More on the actual topic...SWIM has actually done this to recycle MDMA after a night of rolling and used to do so every time SWIM rolled (1-2 times per month). Reportedly, it does actually work and led to no bad health effects. SWIM would describe the taste as very salty, but not too disgusting (although letting it cool down first to room temperature improved the taste).

SWIM is totally serious about this practice and is most likely going to do this again this morning after rolling again for the first time in 2 years.

[Routemaster Flash]

I think the question you have to ask yourself is, just how badly do I want to get high?

I mean, if the worst comes to the worst, you could always, y'know, buy some more drugs...