Health - ghb severely destroying corneas?

[pereira951]

was addicted to ghb for year and half. six months after use developed an eye condition called keratoconus.had perfect vision my whole life. doctors told me abusive lifestyle is no way the cause. four months later disease progressed at a rate in which it usually does in 20 years. just fineshed talking with a friend who started when they used to sell in in health stores. he quit because his vision started going after 7 years, optometrist said it was making his corneas bleed. however it was only a few months and my vision was completley destroyed. this drug is no way the dream health drug, it is an absolute life and health destroyer. they are saying it is harder to quit than heroin. after quiting most people suffer extreme depression,alchoholism and complete loss of selflesnes and worth. has completley changed my life. ne on ever had any similar problems?

[MrG]

For goodness sake, context please!

"They are saying it is harder to quit than heroin"?

What does that even mean? Who are 'They' in their great wisdom and how on earth could they possibly make that claim?

GHB is a pharmaceutical substance, marketed under the brand name Xyrem. It has been successfully applied as a sleep aid for people who suffer Narcolepsy in order to alleviate their daytime cataplexy, which it does incredibly effectively. All from simply inducing 2 x 4hour quality, reparative sleep cycles.

It has been trialled at 2 x 4.5g doses for a period exceeding 44 months with sudden cessation and nobody reported any withdrawal issues.

As for people who are dosing 24x7, they are taking small doses continually in order to combat social anxiety. It does not cure the anxiety, it simply masks the symptoms. When they stop using 24x7 they have to endure the resumption of anxiety and panic-attacks as well as whatever symptoms of GHB withdrawal they have to suffer as a result of abusing the substance in this matter.

As for being able to connect GHB abuse with keratoconus, the assumption is rather weak without any supporting evidence.

[guldenat]

Originally Posted by pereira951

he quit because his vision started going after 7 years, optometrist said it was making his corneas bleed.

Optometrists are not medical doctors, and have not attended/completed medical school. Their purpose is to prescribe corrective lenses and occasionally certain eye medications for mild infections and ailments. Although I agree with MrG's assessment, if you are really concerned I would advise you seek an ophthalmologist - one that possesses a corneal sub specialty would be optimal.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent distinction to point out

[dave-o]

Anyone who lets themself become addicted to something is a fool, and should not be used as an example of a substance's effects.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Denigrating those who struggle with addiction is not appropriate on this site, however much you may take issue with the ...
	people dont chose to become addicted to substances. the post goes against the nature of DF
	This is not appropriate behavior.

[pereira951]

why r u even on this forum if u are commenting on addiction? as for harder to quit is from detectives in the states researching g. I have quit many drugs. G is functinable 24/7.in fact u need to function after a while. Am commenting on my personal experience. am here to help and try to educate people. please do not down play me. thank u.

pereira951 added 4 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

by the way. people addicted are the ones to research for substance affects. education helps.

pereira951 added 258 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Here are many factors regarding keratoconus and g after doing much research... at least my theory.

1.When u ("g"out), part of the reason is, your blood sugar level drops to about 2, this is diabetic shock levels, this affects the corneas.
2: Incomplete reactions and metal ions leaching into the substance (from using metal cookware... even if it's stainless steel). Also smoking three packs a day on g... causing high toxin levels.
3: High sodium intake from Na-GHB will cause increase water retention leading to increased intraocular pressure behind your cornea.... this can lead to corneal deformity (which is not permanent for occasional users but abusers may discover issues over extended periods of time). Many will notice this to cause temporary bloating in their tissue.
4: Abusing G has the potential to decrease your body's endogeneous production of ghb, similar to that caused by alcohol abuse. This in turn can indirectly cause a decrease in your bodies ability to release growth hormone. This may manifest itself in a variety of symptoms, such as sleep disturbances (most common). A decrease in GH will cause a decrease in collagen production reducing the corneas ability to repair themselves. Deformities become more and more prevalent and corneal scars.

You are right! Xyrem and g in small doses (5ml every few hours) is completely non liver and kidney toxic. This is clean stuff. I am taking 15ml an hour of dirty chemically street stuff.

pereira951 added 3 Minutes and 4 Seconds later...

opthamoolgists are the ones who diagnosed my disease. my operation was performed by best surgeon in the world. best known keratoconus doc in world.flew all the way th greece for it, cost me 25 thousand dollars.

pereira951 added 45 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

5: mitral valve prolapse is a a studied reason for accelerated keratoconus. Studies for ghb users have shown swelling of the heart, this causes poor circulation and tingling in fingers and toes, and have shown to stay in some long time users even after quitting. Mitral valve prolapse causes insufficient collagen production which affects the skin and corneas. The operation I hade was a crosslinking procedure, it was a removal of the epithelium, than drops of riboflaven to the stroma, than 30 minutes of uv to the eye. This increase the strength of cornea by 300 to 400 percent. Has shown to stop progression in progressive keratoconus in almost 100 percent of cases. But the procedure I had was not a standard crosslinking. It was a sequential prk and crosslinking. The doctor use the 400khz allegro laser, which is a topogrophy guided laser, that only removes 50 microns of tissue to normalize the cornea(which makes it a more regular astigmatism(from -4 diopoters to+4diopotes) theen freezes the disease with the crosslinking. I am now able to wear soft lenses and retain 20/20 vision with them. I still have major night vision problems though.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Your post is somewhat unclear and hard to understand. Please clarify your statements
	Interesting observation on high sodium levels.
	Valuable information, preferably would be formatted a bit more coherent

[pereira951]

these are all just my theories and possible relavant factors after 100s of hours of research after my diagnoses. When I first started doing g all i could find were good reasons to do it(non toxic, good for sleep, anti-aging, skin repair). After suffering from addiction,and watching friends suffer, with withdrawls, I quickly became aware to the fact that it is very dangerous in UNRESPONSIBLE users. But the fact is that anyone who uses 24/7, and alot start to, have addiction problems, and g is a very hard addiction to conquer. Don't try and tell me I am wrong.

For occasional use I still believe it is one of the safest and healthiest drugs to use.

pereira951 added 1 Minutes and 26 Seconds later...

I also forgot to staet the fact that I had perdect vision my whole life until I started using g.

pereira951 added 19 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...

Thank you for your response snapper. This was my whole reason for posting on this forum. The fact is drugs can be rare and very unpredictable. I am just stating MY life changes do to this drug. I have done much research and am not commenting with lack of any education. I have met many people who's life has been very changed because of it. I also just buried my friend because when he suffered from withdrawls his doctor precribed him to many benzo's and he suffered from time loss, hallucinations, ate all of them and died. I have also sufferd from severe hallucinations from withdrawl. Another person i have talked to lost his whole life becasuse of 7 year addictin, g'ing out in his cars, losing any relation to life because he was so screwed up, and eventually quit because his vision was getting worse, however did not suffer from any rapid disease like mine. He was up to 300mls a day after 7 years.

Another addict I have found, also was up to 400mls a day, and went he went to the g clinic here in toronto, they told him he could not quit cold turkey, because he would have a higher chance of dying from a heart attack then a 70 year old man with heart problems. He had to slowly winde off, lowering his dosages daily over a period of two months. He is now clean though, also my friend with the seven year addictin. Life is not the same for them though. G makes your life so great when u first start and u are on the "program" as we call it.

Any one who is seriously on and thinking of quitting, do not do it on your own unmonitored, either check in, or have someone watch your benzo's and take care of your intake. You can lose time and it can be very dangerous. For anyone taking my post seriously, thank you. I am just trying to help from my personal experiences.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good balanced point

[DynoMiTe]

Originally Posted by pereira951

1.When u ("g"out), part of the reason is, your blood sugar level drops to about 2, this is diabetic shock levels, this affects the corneas.

My Buddha statue's Mother was a Diabetic and if your blood sugar level is 2, there is no coming back without an immediate Glucagon shot. The average Blood Sugar levels are between 75-100. Once you get to 0 your dead.

[MrG]

Originally Posted by pereira951

5: mitral valve prolapse is a a studied reason for accelerated keratoconus. Studies for ghb users have shown swelling of the heart, this causes poor circulation and tingling in fingers and toes, and have shown to stay in some long time users even after quitting.

I would just like to point out that the OP's claims have yet to actually be substantiated. Simply writing that "studies" have shown a swelling of the heart will not do. We need to actually have links to these "studies".

The only place I can find any mention of GHB being responsible for causing a swelling of the heart is on Trinka's bullshit and, more importantly, money making website which, even after making such a confident statement of "fact" doesn't provide any proof either.

Conversely, I would like to add, I *did* find one pubmed article relating to GHB and the Heart:
Cardioprotective effects of sodium gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) on brain induced myocardial injury.

So, unless anyone can actually offer any substansive evidence to support the OP's claims, I will delete this thread in the next few days as it is misleading and wildly speculative.

Oh and as for claiming "1.When u ("g"out), part of the reason is, your blood sugar level drops to about 2, this is diabetic shock levels, this affects the corneas." exactly what does the OP think happens to Xyrem patients who take their dose to induce a proper sleep cycle? Are they suffering a, and I hate to use this ridiculous moniker, "g" out, are they suffering from a diabetic type "shock" or, as reams of scientific evidence has proven again and again over the years, they have simply experienced the sedating effect of their medicine?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nicely refutes some very bold and unsubstansiated claims

[pereira951]

swim is very sorry for making certain claims without medical or scientific data. Swelling of the heart issues and also the more addicting than heroin statements were not taken from any kind of journal but from an anti ghb site where a detective in Los Angelos made these claims in a news paper article posted on the internet.Swim did not mean to make any misleading statements.Again,swim is very sorry.

Swim believes his keratoconus is related mostly to the high sodium levels which can cause swelling in tissues of the body, as he has seen in his face and fingers. This in turn caused dryness to the eyes and possibly excessive rubbing. Swim is not the first person to post on this forum about g eyes, and a bulging effect and weird pressures. As for the blood sugar levels, this was a quick previous read and had been posted as just a possible reason but is definatley most likley not related. The average blood sugar levels in the body is 4 to 8mmol/l. But they are higher after meals and usually lowest in the morning. With more searching now Swim can not find the article again which states that ghb lowers these levels.

Again swim apologizes and was just trying to state his difficulties after ABUSING ghb,and did not mean to anger or mislead anybody. Xyrem is used only twice during the evening and cannot be compared to th major abuse that swim was conflicted with. Swim would g out countless times a day and had absolutley no control. One thing swim really remembers about this non-stop year and a half binge was his swollen face,and major racoon eyes from insufficient proper sleep, and very abusive lifestyle,including improper eating, and very high levels of smoking which can also dry the body out, especially with the major high sodium intake level.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well done for 'fessing up and admitting the source of this "information", Trinka's site is a Republican's drea...

[snapper]

Perhaps the massively high dosing (15ml/hr!) might have something to do with it. SWIM used anywhere from 10-30 ml of GBL/day for 9 years and has suffered no lasting consequences. SWIM quit with no withdrawals when it ran out, only regressing back to the insomniac SWIM was before discovering the stuff. Though some drug side effects can be rare or unpredictable, SWIM wonders if G is truly the cause of SWIY's keratoconus. Keratoconus, a conical deformation of the cornea which is progressive in nature and causes visual distortion and eventually loss both through abnormal curvature and scarring of the cornea for those who do not know could very well be caused or worsened by GHB, buit SWIM thinks this is unlikely. However, SWIM is very sympathetic to Pereira950's affliction. SWIM finds it frustrating enough having astimatism and myopia.

[malsat]

This is an interesting topic. I don't think we should just blow this person off right away, we should look into what they have said and do some reseach. Pereira, can you please post references to back up the statements made in your second post? I'd appreciate it.

[snapper]

What boggles SWIM's mind are the incredibly high doses being used daily. 400 ml would last SWIM anywhere from 2wks - 6 wks and SWIM's overall usage never increased in 9 years of use. Always the same, and the higher doses were used for manic episodes or severe bouts of insomnia. SWIM hardly ever used 24/7 (once SWIM got a taste of the withdrawals). SWIM has worn hard contact lenses SWIM's whole life for the same problem BTW and SWIM's eye RX has not changed since SWIM was a teenager. However, 300-400 ml/day is beyond anything SWIM has ever heard of. Also, SWIM never made GHB (only drank GBL or, reluctantly when that ran out, 1,4BDO) and perhaps this is a GHB thing ?
Either way thanks for the info. SWIM did not mean so sound dismissive, but is skeptical that at moderate doses GHB does much if any physiological harm.
BTW, is the GHB in question made from quality GBL? Some GBL is pretty full of byproducts which can be quite toxic. SWIM used to get BASF electronic grade only, but back then it was legal to buy. SWIM quit primarily because SWIM could no longer secure a supply of known quality and did not want to drink industrial grade GBL.

[pereira951]

i think it has to do with naghb.And yes half the time when swim was at his worst it was chemically smelling street stuff. 3 of swim friends ended up in er for passing out in public and for some reason i have no clue why, when the er did the drug screen, methadone showed up. I dont know if was some kind of byproduct or if it was actually being put in to make addiction worse.i can't see how though, methadone would be way to expensive and hard to come by in that amount to mess with batches. When all this was happening to swim, he was relativley new the ghb scene and everyone said that the stuff going around that year was very diferent. The withdrawls were INSANE! nowthat swim knows more when the ghb he consumes is either self brewed with lab grade sodium, or he recookes and runs the street stuff though a carbon filter. then the ghb just tastes like salt water and has no smell. For some reason all the street stufff locally has an awful chemical taste and smell.

[malsat]

Sounds like they're not even bothering to cook it up at all.

[pereira951]

it has been cooked. the weight and ph says it. its just what kind of cookware and quality of gbl i guess.also thequality of sodium.There is quite a cost difference on sodium between lad grade and hardware store when someone has a barrel of gbl to cook for the street. makes no difference to them as they usually are not users.

[Codehead]

Drug quitting and addictions are very subjective, so you can't say that other is harder than other. It depents very much on to the person, someone will find other one harder than other. So statements like "X is most hard drug to quit or is harder than drug Y" is just stupid and pointless.

[malsat]

1:Well I've finally come across a text referencing GHB and blood glucose: "Gamma-hydroxybutyrate: Molecular, Functional and Clinical aspects" this textbook states that researchers have found GHB increases brain glucose concentration, does not affect blood glucose nor does it affect glucose uptake by the brain.

I should note that this is of course research that would have been performed on rats, probably (haven't looked at the primary literature for this yet myself) using the standard 100-200mg/kg range used when testing GHB on rats. However, even these results would indicate that GHB does not cause hypoglycaemia to the extent of 'diabetic shock levels'.

This is further supported (in my mind at least) by some anecdotal evidence that GHB treated, or at least masked, symptoms of reactive hypoglycaemia in one individual.

I'd recommend the aforementioned text to anyone interested in GHB biochemistry; while it is a little outdated, it still makes for a good read and has a particularly interesting chapter devoted to GHB induced absence seizures.

2:Heavy metal toxicity that would be severe enough to manifest in actual damage to the eye would most likely also manifest itself in a diffuse pattern of concurrent symptoms; significant comorbid cognitive dysfuction would probably be quite evident in anyone who had heavy metal poisoning. For example, symptoms can include:

"mental confusion, pain in muscles and joints, headaches, short-term memory loss, gastrointestinal upsets, food intolerances/allergies, vision problems, chronic fatigue, and others. The symptoms are so vague that it is difficult to diagnose based on symptoms alone."

A more comprehensive evaluation of heavy metal poisoning can be found here:
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C15891.html

3:It occurs to me that although the observation on high sodium intake by GHB addicts is significant, water retention may only occur once the kidneys have been comprimised and are unable to successfully filter excess sodium as they usually do. SWIM has been on a very high sodium diet for half his life and has no water retention problems, and no kidney problems.

More to come...

[suchamatt]

Hey guys,

I'm a regular ghost on this site and have not posted that much but thought I would chime in after reading this interesting post. First, the whole reason I opened this thread was because of the title:

....sidebar: SWIM had been experiencing strange vision related problems since becoming a daily user as well..(For reference: SWIM does 5-8 ML per dose, and around 60-80ML in a 24 hour period)....

I find forums a great resource of relatable discussion when discussing the human body and medical problems, since you can get first hand information from other people that may have or are going through similar symptoms or health problems as ones self. Not only does that allow you to understand things more clearly then reading scientific reference, you also get a well rounded idea on all sides of the topic from many different user experiences.

Now, since drugs side effects or health related problems induced by drugs (and certainly more so with drugs that are not mainstream ones such as marijuana, meth, and alcohol) are not necessarily researched as frequently or as in depth as naturally occuring health problems, it's very unfair to rebutt any claim made by a person or group of persons based upon total lack of professional sources especially when your claim to negate the claim is from the fact that you can't find a study or research article from google or any other search engine, site, or body on the internet.

It's one thing to type up a message and post on a forum acting like you have proof and evidence that's all circumstancial but claiming it's 100 percent true, we can all see through that and know that's just plain stupid....but it's another thing to post theory or start a educational debate on a site like this and seeing what kind of ideas come from the conversations and move on from there.

My point is that you guys are very defensive when it comes to anybody saying things that you do not like to hear or are not 100% in the positive regarding the drugs discussed at hand. The whole point of this site is to find other people who share similar experiences and being able to reach out to them for information and what not.

The fact that SWIM, the person who started this topic, a handful of that persons friends, and a large group of members on this site also have had vision problems, tells me that perhaps it has something to do with GHB since that is one common factor among that group. Weather or not it's true or documented, or there are sources scattered on whatever random site you can find on the internet is not what I'm getting it at...rather don't jump down this dudes throat or make him look stupid or out of his mind for coming up with thoeries that you do not like.

Instead, let's figure out the possibilities or the unpossibilities and find out what is creating whatever the problem being discussed, (in this instance vision problems from GHB) ....this site is the coolest site that I know of simply for that whole purpose...but more and more I'm seeing someone with first hand experiences, such as former addicts, or recreational users with years and years of knowledge shot down because of lack of documented sources from of all plcaes the internet. Who's to say personal long time experiences is not the best source of it all?

Reputation Comments on this post:

	I think it's important that we have people with a wide range of opinions on the forums to keep things balanced.
	Sensible and balanced post

[malsat]

^^ You seem to hava failed to notice my existence, lol! Relatively often I will make claims about G that do not place these substances in the best light - but in my case these claims are accepted by the community because they are supported by logic and scientific publications. The reason for the skepticism regarding new hypotheses that claim negative health impact is this; first, our governments have been blanketing us with wild stories/propaganda about various substances, for many decades, that are/is just not true. Occasionally there is loose, poorly conducted 'research' to support those claims. We live in a world of media sensationalism that will always blame a substance for a problem before it will blame society, or the other choices of an individual, or coincidence. Second, if we blindly consider everything everybody claims about these substances to be fact, we will quickly drown in a river of random nonsensical bullshit.

The purpose of the lies/myths that are generated in this fashion is to discourage anyone from experimenting with these substances, and to generate a negative stigma around anyone who does choose to experiment.

Since nobody else will call bullshit when these claims are made to society, it's our responsibility to establish whether a claim made about the health effects of a substance is legitimate or nonsense. This is why we ask for references to support any claim made on the forum, and this is why we might seem 'defensive' or dismissive of any claims that are made without logic and reference to support them. We have no other option - were we to accept every claim made by someone on the forum - particularly claims made by individuals who only joined the forum a few days beforehand, we would be overrun with bullshit.

That's not to say that the experiences of individuals are bullshit or that we will never accept such claims as fact, it's just that without the appropriate evidence we cannot accept them as consensus reality. I think if you go back over this thread you'll see that efforts were made by some of us to establish whether or not the claims made by the OP were possible, but they were dismissed when no evidence or theory for the possible mechanism for G causing vision problems could be found. Unfortunately this means that, yes, some individuals may have unique experiences that are dismissed by the community, but we just cannot accept every claim made by every individual.

I think you would find, if you were ever to become a part of the general scientific community, that this attitude isn't just specific to us here at DF. Claims are often made about numerous things in the real world, but the general scientific community refuses to accept most claims that are not supported by logic and evidence, for otherwise we'd be living in a world akin to the Dark Ages.

malsat added 19 Minutes and 38 Seconds later...

Oh, in the interest of remaining open to new ideas, in your opinion, suchamatt, what could have caused this phenomenon? We can still discuss anyone's suggestions for a possible mechanism for this phenomenon, and anything the community comes up with that makes sense and can be supported with referencecould be accepted if we reach a consensus.

[MrG]

I think Malsat has already replied with his usual well-balanced prose but I would like to add that, were somebody to post wild speculation on this site about *anything*, drug related or not, it is still to be called out as being exactly that, speculation.

The problem is that many times we have seen users sign up to this forum, post some anecdotal theory that "feels" to them like it must be true and then completely fail to support it with any evidence that even suggests a possible link to the substance being discussed, never mind a probable one.

As far as I am concerned our daily existence is bombarded by mainstream media hype, misinformation and wild speculation masquerading as unquestioned fact and it has been that way for far too long. People should get into the habit of *really* listening to what information is being presented to them and asking themselves if the source of that data can be relied upon.

[GHBITE]

i would just like to add that swim started using GHB in 2004 and not long after i was diagnosed with kerataconus. i have continued the use of ghb and have been going to the opticians on a regular basis.

my eyesight has not got worse, i would like to stress that swim is not a heavy user and would use ghb 2-3 nights a week only and not for sleep purposes.

the thing this thread has got me thinking about is that swim is now more control of the ghb in the sense that doesnt get overdosed on it as much as he used to and has more control over it.

in the first year of use swim would regularly fall asleep, but is more in control now. thats not to say doesnt still go under occasionally.

[malsat]

Quick question for the people who claimed to have keratoconus, at what age were you diagnosed with the disorder?

[GHBITE]

i was 24, doctor has said after the age of 28-30 the eyes harden up and it is less likely that it would get worse.

i hope hes right

[pereira951]

swim have just got back from nyc from the post op with swim surgeon to stop the progression and normalize swim corneas. Just to awnser the previous question,swim was diagnosed with keratoconus at 27,6 months after living a very hard lifrstyle which mainly included 24-7 use of ghb. After discussing swim progression with swim surgeon he stated to swim that he had never seen someone get diagnosed at swim age with such rapid progression,in a 16 year old it is common,but not at 27 when 1 year earlier swim ucva was20/10 for swim motorcycle license. Again since this thread has seemed to annoy so many people swim is just stating his interaction with this drug.

sincw swim has stopped his hard ghb life style post operativley, the corneas are much more regular but still suffers from irregular astigmatism in the most effeted eye.

After doing even more research latley on keratoconus, there are many factors involved.Smoking,diet and vitamens is a huge factor.So again,ghb was involved at the time of this very rare corneal interference,but it could very well have been all the side factors of living the lifestyle of a 24-7 user...(bad diet,excessive smoking etc....)But as stated in above from swim previous investigations, the collagen,ghb-growth hormone,sodium retention were all just possible factors.

Swim has found many relations, and again ghb just happened to be the main thing in swims life at that very hard time.

also,vitamin d diffency and calcium diffiency are also probable contributing factors to keratoconus.at the time of my abuse i did not ever leave my house! the sun is main contributer to vitamin d. also the main reason for my starting this thread was not to state facts but logical theories to save someone the grief i have gone threw after reading such great things about this drug when i started using.

[pereira951]

i found the article that shows a significant drop in blood glucose levels with gbl/ghb use. type the unexplored properties of gbl by sergio oliviera in google.look at th 5ghb articles.as there has been much refute on this post many people here claim that ghb is healthy but prolonged addictive usage is never part of the arteicles posted by users here.it is still unexplored for prolonged heavy usage.this is a very good read,check it out.also very interesting how ghb actually boosts the immune system and people using don't get effected by such things as the common cold and they are also using to treat cancer patients.Very interesting article!