Pharmacology - Is Shulgin holding out on us?

[Desertfox]

At one of his talks from burning man Sasha says he has been very careful about not talking about current molecules he is working on because of what happened when 5-MeO-DALT was made before it had really been assayed and he did not know its safety or dosage but within a short time a Chinese supplier had synthesized it in mass quantities and was selling it. This makes SWIM wonder what Sasha has been working on for the last few years but has been keeping quite about as he has to wait to release anything until his new book is released(which he hasn't mentioned in a while either). Have any SWIMmers know of any interesting structures that have possible activity that Shulgin may himself be exploring? SWIMs recent post about salvinorin B ethoxymethyl ether's recent discovery has kindled his interest in possible other substances that were not in Pihkal or Tihkal... If there is a thread discussing this SWIM apoligizes.

[terrapinzflyer]

The title of this thread made the blood begin to boil- but DF answered his own question to an extent- folks have shown irresponsibility and an interest more in the $ side of things so Sasha has good reason to be cautious. The man can not be "holding out" for he owes the community nothing- in fact it is the community that owes him.

Sasha would not be where he is today if he had not shown and interest in knowledge over $, and did more then due dilligence to ensure anything that may be released into the public real had been properly tested for safety.
AFOAF of a SWIM for one says they are honored to have been one of the lab rats prior to both pihkal and tihkal being published, and that there were definitely substances, for a number of reasons, that should never make it onto "the street"

AFOAF says, "afaik sashas main search vectors have related to the cacti"

[wespawloski]

The UK has structured some of its drug law around the scriptures in his book... One would presume that outcome was not his intention.

[fnord]

and did more then due dilligence to ensure anything that may be released into the public real had been properly tested for safety.

How does he test for safety?

[msimm]

Holding out as described in your own post would be a safety measure. So naturally the answer would be no, he's expressed some safety concerns and apparently takes limited measures to attempt to release valid information prior to synthesis and other details.

Just another reason to respect the man even more.

[enquirewithin]

I recall reading a comment from him to the effect that he was disappointed by the compounds he had extracted from cacti.

[fnord]

I wonder if hes worked with gigantine?

[terrapinzflyer]

Originally Posted by fnord

How does he test for safety?

The same way the pharmaceutical co's do- large numbers of willing labrats

[gmeziscool2354]

dude, shulgin is a smart man, he knows that he needs to keep some of his work on the DL or else hes gonna get raided again. He was the largest single schedule 1 permit holder of all time and got fucked over because he had 'unlabled containers'. I am a chemists (of sorts) and i know that its impossible to lable everything in the lab to the schedule 1 permit standards, and the DEA knows this too, they were just fed up with how frequently PIHKAL and TIHKAL were showing up in clandestine labs.

he isn't holding out on us, hes looking out for his best interests

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by gmeziscool2354

.... they were just fed up with how frequently PIHKAL and TIHKAL were showing up in clandestine labs.

They were punishing him (so much for 'justice'). When will his next book be out?

[terrapinzflyer]

^^ not sure- afoaf ~may~ see his publisher tomorrow and if so will ask.

[Desertfox]

did terrapin(is that a dead reference?) ever meet with the publisher?

[terrapinzflyer]

^^ no- swim was running late as usual. Swim will try and remember to email her today...

and yes- the name is a dead reference.

[terrapinzflyer]

ok- shulgins next book is going to proofreaders shortly. Out next year. Sorry but no real info on content though it seems it will be very wide ranging. I'd appreciate it if this info stays in this community...I've chosen not to reveal some other info- you'll all just have to wait... (sorry)

Reputation Comments on this post:

great info that can not be found anywhere else

[RaverHippie]

Originally Posted by terrapinzflyer

ok- shulgins next book is going to proofreaders shortly. Out next year. Sorry but no real info on content though it seems it will be very wide ranging. I'd appreciate it if this info stays in this community...I've chosen not to reveal some other info- you'll all just have to wait... (sorry)

You're more than accommodating to even share this info. it goes very much appreciated that felt comfortable in coming forward with as much as you have shared.

[Burnt]

If you want to find new drugs just read the scientific literature. Shulgin isn't the only one who does this kind of work. But you are playing with fire so be careful.

[enquirewithin]

Hes' not the only one, but he is unparalleled. The title of this thread is a bit a cheek. He's given us so much already and at a cost to himself.

[Alfa]

I must concur on that. Everything he has given so far has raised such an amount of enthousiasm that the promise of another book, is thrilling and I note people are surely craving for it.

Things have changed since the release of PIKHAL though.
Mind that the UK has banned all drugs listed in PIKHAL and TIHKAL, after TIKHAL was released. This would not have happened without the publication of these books.
I am sure that some countries will simply ban anything listed in Sasha's forthcoming book.

And then there are the chinese factories that will produce almost anything listed in any forthcoming book, which in turn will lead to reckless research chemical vendors, ignorant & reckless research chemical consumers that are often underage and subsequently or even proactively countries banning the research chemicals.

The EU has recently recommended countries to add analog laws and not only EU member states listen closely to the advice EU gives.

The internet has changed so much, that there is no possibility to go back to the situation where research chemicals could be confined to an esoteric group of educated users. PIHKAL reached them. Now it is different: Either the word is out, with all due consequences or it isn't. It is clear that Sasha must have pondered this dillemma often. And even with all the side notes above, I will be glad when the new book is out.

When it is out, I expect full book reviews from you!

[Potter]

Originally Posted by fnord

How does he test for safety?

Listen to his Burning Man lectures

[Desertfox]

Originally Posted by terrapinzflyer

ok- shulgins next book is going to proofreaders shortly. Out next year.

Given the opportunity SWIM would proofread the shit out of that book.

[Alfa]

I have destroyed several PIKHALs by reading them over and over. I now need to buy my 5th PIKHAL, since some bastard has lend it from me and has not returned it yet. I miss it...

A new book would be splendour.

[Desertfox]

Maybe it should all be written in code with the key to encrypt it only given to members of this very site. That way law enforcement confiscating it from clandestine labs would have know idea how to read it and it would keep any knew substances obscure and keep the general public ignorant of our work and in turn keeping them semi-legal. Just a thought, a little too impractical to make a reality.

[terrapinzflyer]

^^^ Sorry, but this site is not the center of the drug use. None of the sorcerrers apprentices swims turtle knows are members here. And lets not forget that reading these may bring fear to some, but a glimmer of understanding to others.
Also- Don't forget there are many in the higher levels of law enforcement who actually believe in many of these drugs.
In a different lifetime Swims turtle had a friend who was at the top of one of the LSD families. While many around him went to prison he remained untouched. He was one of the purest souls swims turtle was ever friends with- he was truly a fellow believer- never motivated by profit or any other weakness- but solely by belief in the light he was shining. Swims turtle was there when he got married, and a cadre of DEA agents arrived- bearing gifts They said, to the effect- " here are your gifts- if you want us to leave we will leave, but we understand"
Swims turtle has seen those with the purest of intentions go unscathed too many times for this to be pure coincidence.

[Desertfox]

^^Interesting indeed. SWIM hopes his belief in Love and Light will guide him where he needs to go. And as long as his intentions are held true everything else will take care of itself.


And swim was wondering if those gifts from the DEA were chemicals seized from other chemists? or just wedding gifts?

[Roads]

Yeah, I'm sure he's got a few molecules he's keeping secret from us.

Dr. Shulgin is probably biding his time until the D.E.A. and other drug enforcement organizations around the world have some of their disturbingly controlling and dystopian powers taken away from them by emerging liberal governments. That or at least until some drug laws and social stigma's change to allow for accepted, widespread medical research on the things he's synthesized. Publishing specific descriptions of a molecule thats likely being synthesized out of a compound that's probably already illegal, talking about the drug with the scientific community and media, and releasing onto the street what would just be termed a "designer drug", is probably against Shulgin's scientific goals. Especially a chemical that has no consensus of clinical assurance on its safety, unknown therapeutic benefits, and unknown long term effects is a surefire way to make his otherwise useful creation a total failure.

He probably wants to see his work evolve into something that can be used legitamately and legally to help people; especially people with mental illnesses. Vulnerable people, who instead of being helped, are being rapidly misdiagnosed, mis-prescribed and misplaced by a psychiatric system that's obsessed with drugs that induce soul-less, Undead-like-behavior.
Such a system that is so clearly lacking effective medical treatments, does not appear to ever "cure" its patients, and ultimately tricks them into dependence on expensive brand name drugs that come out relabeled every day, but are always the same. That system appears to SWIM to be wholly incomplete and misguided without the therapeutic potential of Dr. Shulgin's numerous acts of science.

SWIM would rather the good Doctors next act of molecular genius be a revolutionary success for psychiatry. Much more than having a potentially helpful discovery go the way of many of the Dr.'s other experiments. I.E.: becoming a rarely synthesized, universally illegal, flavor-of-the-month street substance that is processed, substituted and cut with hazardous filler chemicals, dilluted to total impurity, stored in improper conditions and then sold as and confused with the only psychedelic chemical that uneducated, ignorant drug users know about - LSD. SWIM digresses.