Opiate relapse already

[miggeth]

Swims stay with Lucifer was short this time my brothers.

Following 48 hrs of withdrawal coupled with extreme serotonin depletion, thanks to the ceasation of the "charming" drug Tramadol, swim made a healthy, informed decision to restore the correct order of things with natural opiates.

Can any words describe the relief swim felt? I think not. This is how the world should look to swim my long suffering companions.

Just yesterday the sky looked to swim nothing more than a foul and pestulant congregation of vapours, whereas just moments ago, swim had bona fide tears in his eyes looking at a lone cloud passing before a full moon.

The only way to defeat temptation is to yield to it oh my brothers and only friends. Otherwise, the mind grows sick with monsterous laws over the thing it has savagely denied to itself.

I urge you all, do not become sicklied over with the pale cast of thought, or listen to the cruel theories attempting to describe your "sickness". What will your suffering gain for you?

Cast off your shackles and dance my friends, dance over the hills of life and mock the slow for being sober.

Swim will never again conform to the unnatural laws of man, nor will he ever feel like he's let everybody down.

Swims labours shall bear fruit all over these lands and my thirst shall be quenched. Shall and must.

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by miggeth

Cast off your shackles and dance my friends, dance over the hills of life and mock the slow for being sober.

you cant dance all day, everyday forever. have fun with that.

[miggeth]

Swim knows and wasn't completely serious. Just happy to be off Tramadol and wasn't dancing at all on that synthetic filth. In fact, after further thought, that the mo of that poison seemd to be to hijack swims serotonin system for pain relief. After 3 months swim started to notice all the clour had drained out of the world and everything seemed like a cardboard cutout, added which mini seizures started to occur.

Swim has felt nothing but improvement since the banishment of Tramadol, this is my celebration. Swim has nothing to lose my friend.

[Dickon]

OK, I was having a hard time decrypting this but I think I'm there. You were on tramadol, stopped it, and after 48 hours you took some other "natural" opiates, by which I presume you mean poppy tea or opium, unless you mean codeine or morphine.

If you are substituting tramadol for anything containing morphine you definitely have something to lose. Although the "extra-opiate" effects of tramadol, especially the mini-seizures seem a good thing to run from, the general consensus is that tramadol is less addictive than morphine and even codeine.

My cat found that being shackled to anything stopped him from dancing, and drained the colour from his world. I have no experience with tramadol, but my cat hoes have experience with morphine and methadone and heroin and the like. They are none of them easy to quit.

As for mocking the slow, you can mock us all you like, but my cat and I are and feel much better off opiates than on them!

Be well

Dickon

[beena]

Originally Posted by Dickon

OK, I was having a hard time decrypting this but I think I'm there. You were on tramadol, stopped it, and after 48 hours you took some other "natural" opiates, by which I presume you mean poppy tea or opium, unless you mean codeine or morphine.

If you are substituting tramadol for anything containing morphine you definitely have something to lose. Although the "extra-opiate" effects of tramadol, especially the mini-seizures seem a good thing to run from, the general consensus is that tramadol is less addictive than morphine and even codeine.

My cat found that being shackled to anything stopped him from dancing, and drained the colour from his world. I have no experience with tramadol, but my cat hoes have experience with morphine and methadone and heroin and the like. They are none of them easy to quit.

As for mocking the slow, you can mock us all you like, but my cat and I are and feel much better off opiates than on them!

Be well

Dickon

Oh-no my friend(!) ... sorry, but I feel it is my duty to debunk this "general consensus that tramadol is less addictive to morphine" whenever I hear it. Unfortunately SWIM has had experience of tramadol, morphine, heroin and methadone addiction and, although SWIM can't quite agree with miggeth's clarion call for us all to go out and take opiates, she can also totally get where he's coming from.
SWIM's whole dalliance with opiates began with tramadol and she really thought it was a wonder-drug. SWIM has read posts from so many other people on DF regarding the effects of tramadol and a lot of people either experience no euphoria or dislike the 'buzz'. SWIM thinks that anyone who is already experienced with opiates will probably not get much out of tramadol but for a first-time user they hit the spot - well they did for SWIM anyway!
SWIM's boyfriend was prescribed tramadol for a genuine medical complaint and SWIM took two 50mg tablets one day when she had a headache and there were no other pain-killing meds in the house. That was the start of her addiction, then and there on that day. SWIM was a long-term crack-cocaine user already but she had never tried opiates and never sought out this drug. It just happened that on that night SWIM and her boyfriend had had a blazing row and SWIM was crying and upset and this caused a stinkin' headache to boot. But within an hour of taking two tramadol SWIM was sitting on the sofa in a dreamy world of her own, feeling all warm and happy inside despite her argument. She had a pleasant tingling sensation in her head and an also pleasant need to itch her nose repeatedly. A couple of hours later SWIM felt her pleasant state was fading away and she sneaked into the kitchen to take another two tramadol tablets. That night she had a total of six tablets. The next day she had eight.
SWIM took tramadol every single day for the next two years. The first few months of taking tramadol were very pleasant and opiate-ish. But after a sustained period of using the drug SWIM found she no longer got the warm, tingling, itchy euphoria that she liked. She would've (and should've) stopped using them then and there but by then she'd found another benefit from taking them: they were an effective anti-depressant. So even though she no longer got a buzz, SWIM continued to pop 100mgs each morning as a sort of mood-enhancer. Again, this worked great for a while but towards the end of SWIM's addiction to tramadol she was only taking them to stay healthy. SWIM got no euphoria from them, in fact she got nothing whatsoever from them. But SWIM also knew that if she didn't take them she was in for sheer hell. Withdrawal from tramadol included heavy and aching limbs, flu-like pains, hot and cold flushes, shivers running up and down the spine, runny eyes and nose .... ok, so far that all sounds pretty similar to any form of opiate w/d but SWIM has experienced w/d from both heroin and morphine (MST) too and the 'flu-like' symptoms common with all three were most severe with the tramadol.
Then, on top of that, tramadol also caused something that is best described as 'brain zaps' - I believe this is to do with w/d from the SSRI qualities of the drug. Basically it felt like SWIM's brain was floating around in her head and occasionally banging against the sides - it is possibly one of the most unpleasant feelings in the world. And just to top it all off SWIM also suffered from sleep paralysis when she was w/d-ing from tramadol (waking up mentally whilst still being physically asleep and 'paralysed' probably during the r.e.m stage of sleep). SWIM would be trapped half awake and half in a dream-world. It was a nightmare.
Unbelievably SWIM only got off tramadol thanks to heroin. She found out that other opiates can be used to stop the w/d from tramadol (note: this doesn't work the other way around - tramadol does NOT help with w/d from heroin whatsoever, unfortunately).
Anyway, SWIM's story is that she went on to experiment with Oxycontins, diamorphine, morphine and eventually heroin. SWIM is still using the last two drugs mentioned. Heroin addiction is truly awful. In fact any addiction is awful but being on crack for several years SWIM thought she knew everything about addiction but physical w/d takes addiction to a whole new level (or depth perhaps I should say).
SWIM is not really about getting into which addiction is worse than another but tramadol is an evil little drug in her opinion: because of it's relatively weak opioid effects people treat it lightly, SWIM thinks. That could be dangerous. In SWIMs opinion and experience it is an insiduous, nasty substance.

Going back to miggeth though(!), yeah SWIM can totally relate. Recently SWIM went away for two weeks to 'get clean' from heroin. Her heart wasn't really in it truth be told so the plan was doomed from the beginning. SWIM had just ten 30mg MST's with her which went within the first two days. Then SWIM had horrible w/d. She found 30 tramadol tablets though and started taking them (even though they don't work for heroin w/d the 'addict' in her just took over). She took all 30 pills in a week and then had a horrible crash from them. SWIM booked a plane ticket just so she could escape and get herself fixed up again. As soon as she got back and had some 'proper' opiates she had an experience pretty much like the one miggeth described at the start of this thread.
Opiates aren't perfect and addiction is horrible, but when SWIY has been messing with inferior synthetic crap like tramadol or just having horrible, horrible w/d then the world can seem like a truly beautiful place after that first hit. And if SWIM could choose to stay in that state permanently (alas, reality always interferes) then she most certainly would take that option.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great INformation, thank you for posting all of this

[miggeth]

Yeah, swiy got it. Swims staple diet is codeine.

By "the general consenus", I assume swiy is refering to the medical establishment and the pharmaceutical companies? Who of course have nothing to gain by promoting synthetic drugs over natural ones do they?

Swiy is lucky to have no experience with Tramadol, while the opiate withdrawal may not be quite as bad, the combination of complete serotonin depletion at the same time was a serious and worrying problem for swim.

Everything the "doctors" have ever pushed has made swim worse! The only time swim has shown any improvement is when he ignores them all and medicates himself with natural opiates.

miggeth added 14 Minutes and 2 Seconds later...

I'll go even further, the North of England had ceased to function on any kind of reasonable level, the medical practioners and social workers are blatently incompetent and corrupt to boot.

I have nerve damage and they sent me to a psycologist. One consultant suggested I wash my eyelashes in soapy water, after completely disregarding everything I told him. I laughed in his face.

The only thing left for swim to do is turn this land into a somnifernum wonderland.

Watch the spaces.

[mickey_bee]

Originally Posted by miggeth

The only thing left for swim to do is turn this land into a somnifernum wonderland.

Watch the spaces.

I get where you're coming from bro, because I've done the same as you.

But it's only a wonderland for a couple of months, after that it's a painful necessity, which all-in-all makes life considerably harder, greyer and more depressing than it was before.

Granted, swim did it with smack not codeine, but essentially all of these drugs are part of the same family, and I'm quite sure can all chain you down.

Basically mate, if I thought that you could stay in somniferum wonderland all your life, I'd be saying go for it, fuck 'em all!
But you can't. Tolerance, withdrawal, possible escalation onto harder opiates when codeine inevitably stops working.... none of that's wonderland.

Swim made a conscious decision to go full-time with heroin,(albeit influenced by depression), and while the first 2/3months were indeed bang on, it's completely ruining swims life. And on top of that, the stuff doesn't even get him high anymore, it just keeps him from being sick. He gets more of a buzz off his first cig of the day than most IV's.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great reality check for the O.P.

[Master_Khan]

Swim has no experience w/Tramadol but threads like this are helpful in that they reinforce the quite negative mountain of testimonies that are being accumulated against Tramadol. Swim suspects that there are a lot of Dr's in the US who dole out Tramadol in place of other opiates believing that tramadol is 'safer' and less addictive yet we keep hearing these harrowing accounts of withdrawal and reports of seizures and people saying 'never again'.

If swim's dr was to offer him Tramadol, swim would just say no. Swim would tell him he'd rather just grit his teeth and gut it out.

[miggeth]

Originally Posted by Master_Khan

Swim has no experience w/Tramadol but threads like this are helpful in that they reinforce the quite negative mountain of testimonies that are being accumulated against Tramadol. Swim suspects that there are a lot of Dr's in the US who dole out Tramadol in place of other opiates believing that tramadol is 'safer' and less addictive yet we keep hearing these harrowing accounts of withdrawal and reports of seizures and people saying 'never again'.

If swim's dr was to offer him Tramadol, swim would just say no. Swim would tell him he'd rather just grit his teeth and gut it out.

That's very wise. Swim was told it was not addictive, even the information leaflet that came with it said "in very rare cases, mild WDs can occur".

Well, for the last four days, swim has been having sensations of all the nerves in his body twitiching violently, combined with a feeling of having a camera flash going off in his brain. Having never experienced a seizure before he can only assume this is what happened. And he came off it gradually over three weeks! If he had just stopped he dreads to think what could have happened.

Thankfully they have been getting weaker ever since stopping Tramadol, swim can only pray no permanent damage has been done.

miggeth added 5 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by mickey_bee

I get where you're coming from bro, because I've done the same as you.

But it's only a wonderland for a couple of months, after that it's a painful necessity, which all-in-all makes life considerably harder, greyer and more depressing than it was before.

Granted, swim did it with smack not codeine, but essentially all of these drugs are part of the same family, and I'm quite sure can all chain you down.

Basically mate, if I thought that you could stay in somniferum wonderland all your life, I'd be saying go for it, fuck 'em all!
But you can't. Tolerance, withdrawal, possible escalation onto harder opiates when codeine inevitably stops working.... none of that's wonderland.

Swim made a conscious decision to go full-time with heroin,(albeit influenced by depression), and while the first 2/3months were indeed bang on, it's completely ruining swims life. And on top of that, the stuff doesn't even get him high anymore, it just keeps him from being sick. He gets more of a buzz off his first cig of the day than most IV's.

Swiy needs to find a sister drug for H, something to switch to for a few months while it can regain it's charm. Taking one drug for more than three months is a recipe for disaster, the health suffers, because the action is all in one direction.

Swim has heard cocaine is perfect for this role but is currently searching for more available alternatives.

[Master_Khan]

Originally Posted by Master_Khan

Swim has no experience w/Tramadol but threads like this are helpful in that they reinforce the quite negative mountain of testimonies that are being accumulated against Tramadol. Swim suspects that there are a lot of Dr's in the US who dole out Tramadol in place of other opiates believing that tramadol is 'safer' and less addictive yet we keep hearing these harrowing accounts of withdrawal and reports of seizures and people saying 'never again'.

If swim's dr was to offer him Tramadol, swim would just say no. Swim would tell him he'd rather just grit his teeth and gut it out.

Just to complete the picture, swims Doctor ultimately did not offer him Tramadol, but blessed swim with a scrip for Vicodin. Of course over time swim prays that he will enlighten the good Dr that Norcos would be a much more humane way to go , but we walk before we run, etc.

Swim did in fact fear that the good Doctor might 'cop-out' by trying to pacify swim with Tramadol, but in fact those fears proved to be unfounded. Swim was indeed prepared to give a big thumbs down to the Tram.

[nick23]

Just remember,what goes up must come down and in "our thing" you can land with one hell of a thud.

Enjoy and be careful,man.

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by Master_Khan

Swim has no experience w/Tramadol but threads like this are helpful in that they reinforce the quite negative mountain of testimonies that are being accumulated against Tramadol. Swim suspects that there are a lot of Dr's in the US who dole out Tramadol in place of other opiates believing that tramadol is 'safer' and less addictive yet we keep hearing these harrowing accounts of withdrawal and reports of seizures and people saying 'never again'.

If swim's dr was to offer him Tramadol, swim would just say no. Swim would tell him he'd rather just grit his teeth and gut it out.

one doctor that prescribed tramadol to swim said it wasnt addictive, so swim had been under the impression that it wasnt until reading threads on DF. that was the first shed heard of it.

its an amazing resource this forum. imagine all the people who will get told its safe and not addictive, who google 'tramadol', and come to find this information we have here.

safe.

[Spucky]

How long, how many times and how big was the Dose of swinys daily intake of Tramadol?

[miggeth]

200 mg every 12 hrs in sustained release capsules for three months.

[miggeth]

Beena, thanks for clarifying what swim was trying to describe. Brain zaps, yes! That's exactly right. Swim would take a good old fashioned opiate w/d over them any day.

Swim actually had this vision/nightmare about it (Tramadol gave swim truely shocking nightmares after a while).

Sorry for going over the top with my first post, swim knows this probably wasn't the best place for that sort of thing.

[Master_Khan]

Originally Posted by miggeth

Beena, thanks for clarifying what swim was trying to describe. Brain zaps, yes! That's exactly right. Swim would take a good old fashioned opiate w/d over them any day.

swim simply must agree, well said.

[Dickon]

Due to the information on this thread which is new to me, I have started this thread: How tramadol withdrawals compare to withdrawals from typical opiates/opioids. - Drugs Forum.

I think if people who have information about this it would contribute to a valuable resource for the forum.

Thanks everyone

Dickon

[Mesaja]

Just to explain.
Dont get fooled,tramadol is not less adictive than any other opiate.
Tramadol also affects the seratonin levels in the brain,and also acts like a SSRI when taken.And thats not an opiate feature.
So,when withdrawing from Tramadol,besides the opiate w/d,you also have to battle the SSRI w/d(no other way to name it,get the point),which in a way,far more fucked up than the opiate w/d.
Anyways,the phisical withdrawal from Tramadol is not so hard,and it only last for 2-3 days tops.
The bad thing is the psychological w/d and the craving,which are almost imposible to overcome.
The only way to do it,is to cut any resources for Tramadol SWIY have,and convince yourself that there is nowhere to find Tramadol.Than,your free.
Some people SWIM knows,say that Tramadol w/d is even harder than the heroin withdrawals,but SWIM cannot confirme that,since he had never tryed Heroin.
Peace&love
edit:
Brain zaps are very fucked up thing.
To avoid them,dont take Tramadol when you`re out on a hot sun.
Also,dont take a big ammount of the thing all at once.