Dose - Mixing With inert powders for dosing

[Evil GIR]

So say Swim has 1g of a substance that has a dose range of 10mg and he wants to put this into some veg caps which can hold up to 0.5g. (Just an example he probably needs to weigh the inert powder insider the veg cap)

His idea was is to mix 40g of an inert powder with the 1g of Substance X to give him 41g.
This should in theory then give him 100 doses, so would this even work ? (

Actually the calculation is a little wrong, but swim is in too much of a rush to change it right now)

He was thinking of either just mixing the powders or dissolving the lot slowly in water and then evaporating.

He does have some scales that weigh down to 0.01 though they only cost him around £50.
He prob should calibrate them too.

So what do you think would this work or would the drug vs inert powder not be distributed equally enough for it to be safe.

[Gradient]

Evil GIR,

With compounds that have a dose range of 20mg and below, a milligram scale is preferable. Two decimal places really isn't the kind of precision one is looking for when dosing out potent psychedelics. However, it's been pretty hotly debated; the consensus seems to be that an expensive 0.01 scale is better than a cheap/crappy 0.001 scale. However, the most reliable are slightly expensive (a bit above $200 US) 0.001 scales. Some companies that make scales for precious gems and minerals offer good deals on great scales. In my chimps experience, it's absolutely worth it to take the hit and spring for the accuracy; no better way to obviate negative experiences than to ensure that each dose is absolutely precise - no unanticipated side-effects.

My chimp would recommend adding the inert additive (excipient) subsequently to dosing each capsule out. This way, one can be sure that each dose is exactly what one desires - one capsule, therefore, wont receive a comparatively higher dose due to a pocket of un-mixed powder. It's tough to reliably homogenize a bunch of powder that is the same color, so capsules likely wont receive the same proportions of the two powdered compounds mixed in bulk.

What substance was your chimp planning on adding, out of curiosity? Doing this isn't necessary, but my chimp has read that some believe that adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to capsules containing phenethylamines/trypatmines might indeed increase their efficacy. My chimp has never tried this, and so he can't speak to this method either way. Is it for aesthetic purposes? Don't feel obligated to answer. My chimp feels that some substances might actually detract from the metabolism of the substances, depending on the effects of pH and enzyme induction on the specific RC in question.

[lineartransform]

No, it won't work.

Mixing two powders is actually a very difficult problem, and one that you likely are not going to solve on your own without a significant time and equipment investment. If you just sift the powders through a screen and mix or something simple like that you're certain to get poor mixing (even though it looks well mixed). This will result in pills that vary DRASTICALLY in potency, and look identical. In short, not good.

Just get a good scale and just dose it out appropriately.

[Evil GIR]

Originally Posted by Gradient

Evil GIR,

What substance was your chimp planning on adding, out of curiosity? Doing this isn't necessary, but my chimp has read that some believe that adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to capsules containing phenethylamines/trypatmines might indeed increase their efficacy. My chimp has never tried this, and so he can't speak to this method either way. Is it for aesthetic purposes? Don't feel obligated to answer. My chimp feels that some substances might actually detract from the metabolism of the substances, depending on the effects of pH and enzyme induction on the specific RC in question.

Well on the moon swim has a 1g stash of 2-CE which funny enough has a steep dose response curve, meaning that any deviation from wanted dose even by 1mg can have profound effect. So the exact dosage is extremely important.

As for bicarb, well I think it all depends on the Pka of the drug in question.
As Highly ionized drugs cannot cross lipid membranes and unionised drugs can cross freely. The ionisation usually depends on the PKA of the drug and the pH of the environment. This is important as drugs are usually either a weak base or a weak acid. The pKa value is simply the pH at which 50% of drugs are ionised.

So Bases are highly ionised in an acidic environments and are unable to pass the cell membranes and acid are more highly ionised in acidic environments and are unable to pass cell membranes.

In basic environments base drugs are unionised and the same holds true for acid drugs in acidic environments.

So adding Bicarb base to a drug may work if it neutralize the acidity of the stomach (as long as the drug is a base).

If the bicarb turned the drug in to its base then it would not work, because of the acidic stomach enviroment.

It think your friends are thinking about local anaesthetics where the tissues are alkalinized by adding bicarbonate to the anaesthetics. So drugs like lignocaine which has a pKa value of 7.7 would pass faster through the cell membrane. This is because the the bicarb would brings the surrounding tissue close the drugs pKa.

Although most drugs are absorbed in the small intestine because of its large surface area, this includes acids drugs even though they are higly unionised in the stomach. The ph usualy start from 4 to 5 in the duodenum but becomes progressively more alkaline, approaching 8 in the lower ileum.

[Gradient]

Originally Posted by Evil GIR

Well on the moon swim has a 1g stash of 2-CE which funny enough has a steep dose response curve, meaning that any deviation from wanted dose even by 1mg can have profound effect. So the exact dosage is extremely important.

As for bicarb, well I think it all depends on the Pka of the drug in question.
As Highly ionized drugs cannot cross lipid membranes and unionised drugs can cross freely. The ionisation usually depends on the PKA of the drug and the pH of the environment. This is important as drugs are usually either a weak base or a weak acid. The pKa value is simply the pH at which 50% of drugs are ionised.

So Bases are highly ionised in an acidic environments and are unable to pass the cell membranes and acid are more highly ionised in acidic environments and are unable to pass cell membranes.

In basic environments base drugs are unionised and the same holds true for acid drugs in acidic environments.

So adding Bicarb base to a drug may work if it neutralize the acidity of the stomach (as long as the drug is a base).

If the bicarb turned the drug in to its base then it would not work, because of the acidic stomach enviroment.

It think your friends are thinking about local anaesthetics where the tissues are alkalinized by adding bicarbonate to the anaesthetics. So drugs like lignocaine which has a pKa value of 7.7 would pass faster through the cell membrane. This is because the the bicarb would brings the surrounding tissue close the drugs pKa.

Although most drugs are absorbed in the small intestine because of its large surface area, this includes acids drugs even though they are higly unionised in the stomach. The ph usualy start from 4 to 5 in the duodenum but becomes progressively more alkaline, approaching 8 in the lower ileum.

Evil GIR,

Thanks for the review! I'm quite familiar with pharmacodynamics, but your summary is indeed relevant and beneficial. The pKa of phenethylamine has been demonstrated to be quite basic, pKa = 9.83. Here's the source:
http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents100/...oses091305.htm

While, of course, all phenethylamines will differ in their pKa - this is likely a reasonable ballpark to begin with.

Your point regarding increased ionization may be more relevant with tryptamines than phenethylamines. The protonated form of tryptamine has been shown to have a pKa of -3.6.

Most drugs ingested are basic in pKa, so neutralizing the pH of the earlier digestive environments will serve to enhance the bioavailability most of the time. However, as you appropriately have pointed out, not all drugs are characterized by a basic pKa. It would be great if one could find a study evaluating the pKa's of various phenethylamines and tryptamines, but one hasn't stumbled on a comprehensive one as of yet.

[gmeziscool2354]

well, if unidentified chemical is fully water soluble (ie Cl salt or similar) it can be dissolved into a measured amount of water, such as 10 ml, 100mg/mL solution can be measured some what easily by the approximation that one drop ~50 uL (micro Liters, 1x10^-6 liter), so there are ~20 drops to one mL. Using this approximation there would be ~5 mg's per drop. That said this is an approximation, so some degree of caution needs to be used.

Swim would recommends swiy tries to obtain a 10 mL volumetric flask and a fitting glass stopper. This is the most accurate device for volume and a glass stopper is sufficient to allow virtually no evap. Swim should then obtain a bulb pipette or eye dropper to dose. If swiy doesn't have access to volumetric flask then a needless syringe, easily obtained from a pharmacy should be used to measure water into a small air tight container and same procedures should be followed. It should be known and accounted for that this device will be far less accurate than volumetric flasks.

***safety warning*** these are just approximations, and altitude can play a into affect so if SWIY lives at extreme altitudes this may play into it some what. Also, don't assume the approximation is accurate, start low. ***
edit: not to cast stones from glass houses, as swim is editing his post for spelling too, but the title of this thread is misspelled.

[twoiko]

SWIM was also thinking about this as he has recently purchased a manual gelcap filler. So is he correct in assuming he should just measure out every individual gelcap instead of just mixing with inert powder so as to have enough to fill each gelcap? It seems that's what SWIY has been saying so far as the dosage could still vary quite a bit as mixing properly could be an issue...

[Evil GIR]

swim would need some scales that weigh down to 0.000 to accuratly weigh most Rc compounds. swim was going to try and cap them but instead has to rely on weiging 250mg disolved in 25ml of 70% vodka. Then putting this fully disolved into a 30ml amber vial. To dose swim would use a 1ml insuline syring, this should be pretty accurate.
Being 1ml=10mg

[Waste]

Presuming that cost wasn't an issue, what equipment would SWIM need to buy to mix powders to a pharmacutical grade?

[lineartransform]

Originally Posted by Waste

Presuming that cost wasn't an issue, what equipment would SWIM need to buy to mix powders to a pharmacutical grade?

Here is an excellent flow chart that might help you get a better picture of just how much of a pain in the ass this will be.

http://www.chemicalprocessing.com/Me..._Flowchart.jpg

I think a ball mill would be the best option, and you could possibly hack one together from a rock polisher or similar.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Nice explanation on mixing chemicals.
	Very nice explanation, thank you!
	Thanks for the link

[Waste]

$70 for a 3lb ball mill, well worth the price SWIM would say

Thanks for the info!

[twoiko]

Actually, for about 10-20$ you could make your own, I found an instructable on how to do so by searching on google. The only thing I'd add is to use a metal container and avoid any lead based metal balls, obviously. XD

[Waste]

You wouldn't do anything mate, SWIY would

And SWIM thought making his own, but when dealing with highly potent RC's he'd rather pay out the extra

[twoiko]

I'm pretty sure making a ball mill isn't the least bit illegal...

[Waste]

Probably right, but SWIM's always been told to use the abreviation reguardless, probably a little over cautiouse, but ahh well

Carry on heh, hopefully a mod will clear this up