Heroin to Alcohol - Dont' want to get addicted

[dyingtomorrow]

So, SWIM has drank and binged since he was like 10 years old, but never so much that he became physically dependent; and has just quit heroin after 4 years and started on daily alcohol as a coping mechanism. How long before you become physically addicted to alcohol? It is definitely helping SWIM deal with heroin cravings, but the last thing SWIM wants to do is become an alcoholic - SWIM's uncle went from heroin to alcohol and the alcohol was a lot worse on him than heroin and he died. So uh, if you drink but don't get totally wasted every day, how long do you have?

[CrookedEye]

Alcohol is turned to morphine in the brain in heavy users, so it'll probably just replace the heroin addiction. SWIM wouldn't drink heavily for more than a month or two, cause if trying to beat an opiate addiction, the brain needs time to heal and start producing it's own endorphins, not just replacing them with another artificial one. Exercise and good eating are good habits to start for recovering faster..

Reputation Comments on this post:

	i did not know this about alcohol , turnning into morphine,
	thank you for posting this info

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by CrookedEye

Alcohol is turned to morphine in the brain in heavy users, so it'll probably just replace the heroin addiction. SWIM wouldn't drink heavily for more than a month or two, cause if trying to beat an opiate addiction, the brain needs time to heal and start producing it's own endorphins, not just replacing them with another artificial one. Exercise and good eating are good habits to start for recovering faster..

SWIM actually got ripped from working out every day in rehab for 2 months (and fortunately has a predisposition to building muscle quick) , and has been eating really well - does that extend the amount of time you can drink straight?

I'm really wondering because, well, with heroin it's 3-4 days straight and you are fucking hooked. I just want to know the minimum hooked time for alcohol assuming one is physically healthy.

Thank you for the info and taking the time to psot this!

[CrookedEye]

It took several, at least 3, months of regular drinking before he noticed any withdrawal but he had been clean for years before he started heavily with alcohol. This gave light withdrawal like some night sweats and cravings, when trying to quit.. He was medium build, not big, and drank about a 12 pack of bottles of 9-10% beer a night and sometimes liquor.

EDIT: Found on an addiction forum to clear up the alcohol to morphine in the brain, for more accuracy:

T.H.I.Q. was discovered in brains of alcoholics in Houston, Texas by a scientist named Virginia Davis who was doing cancer research. For her study she needed fresh human brains and used bodies of homeless winos who had died during the night and were picked up by Houston police in the morning.

She discovered in the brains of those chronic alcoholics a substance that is closely related to Heroin. This substance, known to scientists, is called Tetrahydrolsoqulnoline or THIQ When a person shoots heroin into their body, some of it breaks down and turns into THIQ The Alcoholics studied had not been using heroin so how did the THIQ get there?

When the normal adult drinker takes in alcohol, it is very rapidly eliminated at the rate of about one drink per hour. The body first converts the alcohol into something called Acetaldehyde. This chemical is VERY TOXIC and if it were to build up inside us, we would get VIOLENTLY SICK AND COULD DIE. But Mother Nature helps us to get rid of acetaldehyde very quickly. She efficiently changes it a couple of more times - into carbon dioxide and water - which is eliminated through kidneys and lungs. That's what happens to normal drinkers. It also happens with alcoholic drinkers, but with alcoholic drinkers something additional happens.

What Virginia discovered in Houston has been extensively confirmed since. In alcoholic drinkers, a very small amount of poisonous acetaldehyde is not eliminated. Instead it goes to the brain. There through a very complicated biochemical process, it winds up as THIQ

Research has found the following:

THIQ is manufactured in the brain and only occurs in the brain of the alcoholic drinker. It is not manufactured in the brain of the normal social drinker of alcohol.

THIQ has been found to be highly addictive. It was tried in experimental use with animals during the Second World War when we were looking for a painkiller less addicting than morphine. THIQ was a pretty good pain killer but t couldn't be used on humans. It turned out to be much more addicting than morphine.

Experiments have shown that certain kinds of rats cannot be made to drink alcohol. Put in a cage with very weak solution of vodka and water., these rats refuse to touch it. They will literally thirst to death before the agree to drink alcohol. However, if you take the same kind of rat and put a minute quantity of THIQ into the rat's brain -- one quick injection -- the animal will immediately develope a preference for alcohol over water.

Studies done with monkeys, our close animal relative in medical terms, show the following:

A. Once the THIQ is injected into a monkey's brain, it stays there.

B. You can keep the monkey dry off alcohol for 7 years but brain studies

show that THIQ remains in place in the brain.

The alcoholic's body, like normal drinkers, changes the alcohol into acetaldehyde and then it changes most of it into carbon dioxide and water, which in the end kicks out through the kidneys and lungs. However, the alcoholic's bodies won't kick all these chemicals out. The Alcoholic's brain holds a few bits back and transforms them into THIQ. As THIQ is accumulated in the brain of an alhoholic, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the alcoholic will cross over a shadowy line into a whole new way of living.

It is not known by medical science, at this time, where this line is or how much THIQ an individual brain will pile up before one crosses this line. Some predisposed people cross the line while they're teenagers, or earlier. Others cross in their 30's or 40's and others after retirement. But once this happens the alcoholic will be as hooked on alcohol, as he would have been hooked on heroin if he'd been shooting that instead.

Now comes the loss of control. Now it's chronic. progressive and incurable. Now it's all to clearly a disease.

GOOD NEWS:

Alcoholism is a disease.

Alcoholism is not the alcoholic's fault.

Alcoholics can get proper treatment for the disease, which begins with telling them these facts.

The alcoholic can be relieved of guilt.

The alcoholic can take on responsibility for arresting their disease.

The alcoholic can refuse to put more THIQ in their brains and refuse to activate the THIQ that is already there.

Alcoholics can and do recover.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very interesting information.

[bcubed]

CrookedEye,

Thanks for the post. I'd read a bit re: THIQ, but it was in an "alcohol recovery" text, and I took it with a fair bit of cynicism, given the source (wondering if they were trying to equate alcohol to heroin to "scare" people.)

Also, do you have a source for the info? The only thing that concerns me is the "THIQ builds up in the brain and NEVER goes away" bit. Sounds eerily similar to "acid accumulates in your spine" or "ecstacy burns holes in your brain." Pretty much all other foreign chems get metabolised in fairly short order. (Especially if a close chemical relative to opiates...unaware of "perma-dope.")

Not doubting you, I'd just like a closer examination of the source.

[CrookedEye]

Definitely, sorry SWIM doesn't know of the source, but when SWIM was originally told about this, it was from some clinical experiment in which the discovery of opiate type chemicals was found in the brains of alcoholics and not opiate addicts, can't remember the exact situation, but by searching he did find only the study on a recovery based website. Probably have to do a little more digging for a more official response. He did read the doctors name and things when he originally heard this, but he hasn't done really a lot of follow up investigation on that information, and any info anyone could find about this would be a great help.

Upon further resarch SWIm found this:

Myth 3) Alcoholics Have THIQs In Their Brains
In 1970 Davis et al published experimental research on alcoholic rats which found the evidence of THIQs (tetrahydroisoquinolines) in their brains. Since THIQs are chemically related to opiates it was thought that this might explain the difference between alcoholic drinkers and normal drinkers. In 1983 Sjoquist et al published autopsy results on alcoholics which seemed to confirm the presence of THIQs. However, other researchers had difficulty replicating these results. THIQs were also found to be present in the brains of non-drinkers. While the academic debate raged workers at rehab centers began to tell clients that there was proof that their "alcoholic" brains were different than normal brains because of THIQs. Hazelden has at least one therapeutic videotape on the subject. I have seen a statement by one treatment professional saying in effect "It is good to tell clients that their brains are different because of THIQs even if the evidence does not bear this out because it helps them to accept that they are diseased." Lying to a client is okay if it makes them accept disease theory--hmmm.
A 2006 article by Quertemont and Didone notes that measuring the presence and quantities of THIQs in brain is not an easy task and that more sophisticated measures are needed. It is not a simple matter of "People with THIQs in their brains are alcoholics and those without are not". The good news is that the research on this topic is getting better.
On a side note we can observe just how badly word-of-mouth transmission of information can lead to total distortion of reality. There are at least a dozen sites on the internet which tell us "A medical scientist named Virginia Davis was doing cancer research in Houston, Texas. For her studies, she needed fresh human brains--which are not widely available. So she'd ride out with the Houston police in the early morning and collect the bodies of winos who had died on Skid Row the night before. The warm bodies were rushed back to the hospital, where the brains were removed.
One day Virginia was talking to some doctors in the hospital cafeteria. She was telling them about some finding of her laboratory studies, and she said: "You know, I never realized that all those winos used heroin as well as booze." The doctors laughed. "Come on, Virginia," they told her. "These guys don't use heroin. They can barely afford a bottle of cheap muscatel." She had discovered in the brains of those chronic alcoholics a substance that is, in fact, closely related to heroin. This substance, long known to scientists is called Tetrahydrolsoquinoline - or (fortunately) THIQ for short."
Virginia Davis was doing alcoholism research on rats--that is all. She was not researching cancer. She never performed autopsies on winos. Here we have an eyewitness account of an event that never happened.
References Davis V E, Walsh M J. (1970) Alcohol, Amines, and Alkaloids: A Possible Biochemical Basis for Alcohol Addiction. Science. Vol. 167. no. 3920, pp. 1005 - 1007 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/3920/1005
Sjoquist B, Perdahl E, Winblad B. (1983) The effect of alcoholism on salsolinol and biogenic amines in human brain. Drug and alcohol dependence. Aug;12(1):15-23. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6196169?dopt=Abstract
Quertemont E, Didone V. (2006) Role of Acetaldehyde in Mediating the Pharmacological and Behavioral Effects of Alcohol. Alcohol Research & Health. Volume 29, Number 4. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh294/258-265.htm



Further research may prove these claims often spouted by rehabilitation workers may be somewhat off, if not totally fabricated. SWIM just remembers hearing about this in treatment, from nurses and doctors, and then found a reference on the internet. But he never fully investigated the claims, so there may be one more fallacy in the recovery institution..

Still is probably a bad idea to replace an opiate with alcohol, but it sucks to hear bogus information often spouted by supposed experts in recovery.. Found several sites supporting the hypothesis, but also against, so the actual scientific articles would need to be read to find out the truth for sure... The last article retains that it is questionable and there is much debate, so it may not be 100% accurate in the way it works.

some quotes-
"Tetrahydropapaveroline is a benzyltetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloid derivative of the biogenic amine, dopamine. Alcohol, by way of its primary metabolite, acetaldehyde, competitively inhibits nicotinamide-adenine Sinucleotide-linked aldehyde dehydrogenase and augments the formation of tetrahydropapaveroline in vitro. The limited capacity of brain to oxidize aldehydes may be of pharmacological importance because it facilitates the production of tetrahydropapaveroline in the presence of drugs which inhibit this enzyme."

" Further studies, especially in vivo assessments of acetaldehyde concentrations, clearly are needed to clarify the role of acetaldehyde in the effects of alcohol consumption. Only when the actual acetaldehyde concentrations found in vivo in various organs following alcohol consumption are known can reliable conclusions on the involvement of acetaldehyde in ethanol’s effects be drawn."

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well, the posts keep getting more accurate! I was about to bad rep-you for the alcohol converted into morphine thing, th...

[bcubed]

Man, it's a shame it can be so hard to separate the facts from the B.S., because I'm actually somewhat inclined to believe in THIQ, or something like it...that is, a mechanism by which alcohol produces some opiate stimulation. Consider:

1. The opiate-antagonist naltrexone is effective in reducing euphoria associated with alcohol consumption in alcoholics (in fact, that's it's intended use, with treating opiate addiction a frequent "off-label" use.)

2. When Lizard got his first opiate high (20mg oxycodone), his reaction was, "feels like alcohol without the sloppiness!" (Other opiates are somewhat less so, but oxycodone always reminds Lizard of a clear-headed drunk.)

3. Lizard finds opiates+alcohol strongly symbiotic in euphoria...which is why he's effectively quit using opiates (after learning his favorite means of using opies is the one most likely to earn him a toe-tag!)

As he has a (legally prescribed) vial of naloxone kicking 'round, he's inclined to have it administered sometime whilst drunk and observe what effects, if any it produces...