Health - Should swim be worried about extreme cold/freezing on mephedrone?

[mashed]

swim is quite worried about this,maybe swims just being paranoid but everytime swim uses mephedrone swim feels really really cold as in shivering freezing cant get warm cold.no matter how warm it is or how many coats swim has on.swim thought stimulants would make you feel warm not cold
should swim be worried?
thanks for any advie
much appreciatted

[Tony Williams]

If it does not work well, I advise SWIY to leave mephedrone as it's an r/c and the side effects may differ from person to person. SWIM felt really warm and okay during the high ... maybe SWIY try see other stims have a similer effect?

[Abrad]

SWIM tends to feel cold after any stimulant. I don't think you need to worry.

[mashed]

thank you for youy replys.swim was quite worried (swims been using coke for day now so the paranoia is kicking in)

its strange though id have though stimulants would make you feel warm.....

[Zoidberg]

Same thing and worse happened to my pet ghost (mixture of cold, numbness and vasoconstriction). He's never touching the stuff again.

[Alfa]

I think this needs to be looked at carefully, as it does ring several bells.

[fnord]

Originally Posted by Alfa

I think this needs to be looked at carefully, as it does ring several bells.

Which bells are ringing alfa? Could you explain more?

[snapper]

vasoconstriction. SWIM gets the same thing, albeit probably not as badly and no numbness, just cold susceptibility, from methylone and sometimes hallucinogenics, particularly when they come on.
SWIM agrees that mephedrone is too dangerous to be out there and if SWIY gets any unusual symptoms, best feed SWIY's mephedrone to the toilet and move on.

[buzzman]

Originally Posted by snapper

vasoconstriction. SWIM gets the same thing, albeit probably not as badly and no numbness, just cold susceptibility, from methylone and sometimes hallucinogenics, particularly when they come on.
SWIM agrees that mephedrone is too dangerous to be out there and if SWIY gets any unusual symptoms, best feed SWIY's mephedrone to the toilet and move on.

How is it too dangerous? SWIM and MANY of his friends have done Mephedrone with no reported side effects at all.

[babymakesbeats]

SWIM gets this feeling on MDMA. though not in a club, when its hot, only when he goes outside for a ciggy and feels freeeeezzzzzing !

SWIM occasionally gets something closer to your description, i.e. not being able to get warm & shivers, when some gash quality pills are wearing off.

[babymakesbeats]

If SWIY is referring to reported side effects of people generally getting this side effect from stimulants then SWIM would agree.

This is something SWIM gets with most stimulants, that what I was alluding to before.

Alfa may of course, be referring to something completely different !

[Joel2k11]

Funny thing is with methylone swim gets hot and sweaty, with mephedrone swim gets cold and sweaty. Although usually just a wooly blanket over swim seems to warm him up again. I wouldn't think this was anything sinister personally but if it does make swiyou uncomfortable, then you should probably stop taking any.

[snapper]

Any drug that causes vasoconstriction to the degree that mephedrone doesncan cause damage if used in excess. Though so far people have recovered from this side effect, decreased bloodflow to the capillaries of the skin means a similar decrease in bloodflow to internal organs. This could have consequences not immediately evident, and in the right person more severe than those reported so far. Clearly most that take mephedrone are fine, but it has more potential than other RCs to cause harm, particularly with binge dosing.

[Doe222]

swim notices that mephedrone seems to do the opposite and makes his feet feel really hot as if they are against a radiator or something, and makes him feel anxious

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by fnord

Which bells are ringing alfa? Could you explain more?

Dick sums it up pretty clearly here:

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

yeah, i'd dare say that mephedrone IS by far the most popular currently available rc, with the jwh's a very distant 2nd, perhaps.

i must admit, after having a day to think this over, there's definitely something weird that COULD be going on outside the usual stimulant overdose &/or anxiety attack &/or serotonin-syndrome (meph is thought to have a significant serotonin component).

I understand that there have been a couple of cases where people have done mephedrone and other new beta-ketone analogues that have resulted in a severe, sudden vasculitis-type picture resulting from blood cells being "attacked" or more-likely, attacking each other.

There are a few possibilities for this, but it definitely borders on subject materials that i'm NOT an expert and i urge anyone else to add, subtract, or alter my thoughts here...

1. First of all, by definition, if these people required emergency vein-reopening surgeries with impairment of walking and possible loss of ability to walk, this means that for THESE PEOPLE, the END RESULT of this drug (or possibly another rc or combo) has been distal vasculitis. Essentially, it sounds like there has been some kind of obstruction taking place in the distal-most (smallest caliber) blood vessels...either impeding arterial flow (most likely) or venous return.
2. Since 'blood cells attacking each other' has been mentioned by the patients' physicians, this further clarifies the disease process as being autoimmune in origin. This means that the body's natural defense organs (white blood cells, lymph nodes, etc.) have been "triggered" for whatever reason and the activated white blood cells are attacking some other component of the body. possible targets include: other white blood cells, red blood cells, dissolved proteins in the blood including "serum" or "complement" proteins, and/or any other tissues in the body, although from the sounds of it, the target tissues are some kind of blood component (WBC, RBC, or dissolved "serum" protein).
3. Autoimmune vasculitis can be caused by a few different things...
   1. antibodies to white blood cells (WBC vs WBC)
   2. antibodies to red blood cells (WBC vs RBC)
   3. complement activation (the body's "second defense"--basically proteins that accumulate on target cells to punch holes in the cells, resulting in dead cells without requiring white blood cells to kill). aka "serum sickness"
4. Any of these three things lead to a "thickening" of the blood...
   1. just think of what would happen if all the sugars, coloring agents, and flavors that are dissolved in a can of cola were to all suddenly become "magnetized" and the dissolved particles became suddenly attracted to each other! you'd end up with a glass of clear water with a giant "rock" or crystal made up of all the ingredients in the cola....
   2. this is what happens in autoimmune vasculitis. the blood gets thick & sludgy & eventually it cannot flow into the small-diameter vessels that feed the calves, feet, fingers, toes, nose, penis, elbows, for example.

There are MANY drugs that are known to cause complement activation and serum sickness which could lead to a similar picture of autoimmune vasculitis. In fact, there are so many accepted drugs that are used on a daily basis (by doctors, not recreational users), that listing them would be exhausting... but suffice it to say that i can't think of any recreational drugs that fit this description.

Many times, people get upset that a physician's prescription is even necessary to get antibiotics and other drugs. These kinds of side-effects immediately come to mind.

For these drugs in particular (mephedrone, other beta-ketones), common sense tells you that IF someone were predisposed to having this sort of reaction, it would be worsened by the fact that these drugs are all stimulants and therefore, vasoconstrictive---meaning that not only is the blood thick and sludgy, but now the vessels are even smaller...

I really hate going out on a limb like this over something so serious, but if this diagnosis/theory is correct, then only a certain percentage of the population would even be succeptable to this kind of problem...usually that percentage is very small.

Originally Posted by buzzman

How is it too dangerous? SWIM and MANY of his friends have done Mephedrone with no reported side effects at all.

Not everyone experiences these side effects and people that have not experienced it on many occasions, can experienced it on other occasions. So absence of personal incidents on several occasions is not a proof of general safety. This will give you a good overview of others their experiences:

1. Mephedrone: body turned blue with red and purple, limbs numb. URGENT RESPONSE NEEDED!
2. Mephedrone (2-Methylamino-1-p-tolylpropan-1-one) experiences
3. Should swim be worried about extreme cold/freezing on mephedrone?
4. mephedrone is not a toy: Heart problems
5. Mephedrone hospitalization: Purple knees, extremities
6. Mephedrone: Potential Neuropathy - Extreme side effects. PLEASE READ
7. 4-Methylmethcathinone (2-Methylamino-1-p-tolylpropan-1-one) "mephedrone"
8. Mephedrone violent convulsions: hospitalisation
9. mephedrone: felt like his heart was going smash through his rib cage
10. Mephedrone fatigue: heart & breathing problems
11. Help Feeling Mephedrone effects 48+hrs after last dose
12. Teenager dies of mephedrone overdose
13. Possible mephedrone death
14. Research Chemicals (Methylone and Mephedrone) and amnesia
15. If you have experienced side effects with Mephedrone, then read this.

[holdout]

Originally Posted by mashed

swim is quite worried about this,maybe swims just being paranoid but everytime swim uses mephedrone swim feels really really cold as in shivering freezing cant get warm cold.no matter how warm it is or how many coats swim has on.swim thought stimulants would make you feel warm not cold

This happened to SWIM on one or two occasions with mephedrone. For SWIM it was like getting caught on the fence of the threshold on switching from "feeling things one way" to "feeling things another way" while the effects come on. Mephedrone exhibits analgesic effects and slight body buzz. SWIM would start shivering a lot, almost like having mild symptoms of Serotonin Syndrome, and removing clothing/cooling head to try and establish thermal homeostatis did not help. SWIM then had a revelation that their dose may have been rather minimal and needs a bump to finish the come-up. SWIM does not understand how, but it made perfect sense.... a gut feeling that was full of logic.... so SWIM took a bit more and felt amazing the rest of the night. the shivering went away rather quickly and SWIM didn't feel cold.

[thv20]

Originally Posted by holdout

For SWIM it was like getting caught on the fence of the threshold on switching from "feeling things one way" to "feeling things another way" while the effects come on. [...] SWIM then had a revelation that their dose may have been rather minimal and needs a bump to finish the come-up. SWIM does not understand how, but it made perfect sense.... a gut feeling that was full of logic.... so SWIM took a bit more and felt amazing the rest of the night. the shivering went away rather quickly and SWIM didn't feel cold.

While this may have worked for SWIY, any newcomers (or experienced users) to Mephedrone obviously shouldn't see this as a valid method for getting themselves out of a worrying or uncomfortable situation.
The most logical solution is, of course, to stop.

I'm not having a go at SWIY, just making sure that people observe sensible harm reduction methods

Reputation Comments on this post:

Point well made without being judgemental on the poster.

[ex-junkie]

swim used to get really cold sometimes when she smoked ice.

ex-junkie added 381 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

^erm... how is this off topic?

Originally Posted by mashed

swim thought stimulants would make you feel warm not cold
should swim be worried?
thanks for any advie
much appreciatted

[lineartransform]

SWIM had a disturbing experience in the past that may help here - consumed approximately 400mg of mephedrone over 4hrs, and smoked a large bonghit approximately 4 hours after that. SWIM became extremely cold and shook uncontrollably.

Blankets did not seem to do much, even with heat up and several blankets on (this was in early summer). SWIM was alone and was becoming quite worried as effects were not subsiding, had no benzos or other tools to calm down. SWIM guessed he was experiencing vasoconstriction with an anxiety attack or similar.

Administration of 1.2g of l-arginine caused complete cessation of all cold feelings/shaking. Blankets were no longer required, and SWIM quickly returned to a "stoned again" state that was easily manageable. Sleep came relatively quickly.

In short: for those who are experiencing vasoconstriction or excessive cold feelings - try a NO2 product such as l-arginine and report back any findings.

[thv20]

Concerning L-Arginine: Would it be sensible to preload, for example, 500-1000mg as a precaution? Or is it best consumed on an "as needed" basis?

[snapper]

Test the supplements before trying them with meph.
2-3 g l arginine (ehtyl ester), 1-3 g l-citrulline, and 50 mg pycnogenol. This is a good combination for vasodilation. There are also bodybuilding products preformulated to dilate vessels and deliver more oxygen to muscles (usually nitric or NO in name). Other things that would help would be icarin (found in horny goat weed) or even viagra. Start with lower doses since the amino acids can ork too well and cause dizziness or a feeling of lacking enouh air in ones lungs from increased blood flow and consequent oxygen demands.

[lineartransform]

SWIM typically consumed a multivitamin, vitamin c, and l-arginine prior to using mephedrone in the past. In the situation in the previous post, he had not. SWIM has personally had good results preloading with l-arginine resulting in zero cold or numbness issues when administered 15 minutes or so before mephedrone.

[holdout]

SWIM is sending out a word of caution!

SWIY-guys are playing in dangerous territory. It is almost a no-brainer now that it is conclusive that mephedrone causes significant action on one's immune/autoimmune system. A human body's natural response to the effects of a stimulant are there as survival mechanisms. One's blood vessels vasoconstrict for a REASON, and to put it in one of the most basic explanations: a heart racing on tachicardia does not want to pump through so much volume, and vasoconstriction balances a higher blood pressure with lower volume to pump.

The fact that DURING the effects of mephedrone one's immune system is on overdrive, one should be scared away from L-Arginine which is known to boost one's immune system even more, and works against one's body to DECREASE one's blood pressure. Too low of a blood pressure means your heart is then trying harder to pump more and more so that blood can actually flow properly. It's like trying to pump water through a hose where the first half is narrow and the second half is wider. There's no pressure and therefore a very weak flow, resulting in you having to pump faster and harder to add more momentum to the liquid. It's all a delicate balance. If SWIY is reading on wiki "Reduces risk of heart disease", SWIY must consider that in fact ALL of the listed benefits are under the assumption that SWIY is not abusing recreational drugs that induce tachycardia.

Arginine shares similarities with GABA because of its involvement with human growth hormone, and stimulants such as MDMA are known to affect functionality of GABA-related protein receptors and mess things up.

It's all so very complex, and SWIY-guys should wait until real scientific research is published before trying out "harmless" supplements like Arginine together with mephedrone.