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  #1  
Old 12-04-2009, 21:19
Jessica_R Jessica_R is offline
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Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

SWIM weighs 95 lbs (Give or take). SWIM recently found a connection with a hospital worker. SWIM can get Nubain and phenergan (promethazine) vials for $xxx for BOTH of them and the new sterile needle. The needle is the big one like the one doctors give you when you get a shot in the bum.
SWIM takes around 10 of the hydrocodone the 10/325 a day. SWIM cut down from 14 of the 7.5mg ones a day. SWIM wanted to know if there were any recreational values from the Nubain alone because the hospital worker said to mix both the vials in the needle and inject them into SWIM's butt (Upper right part), but SWIM hates the way promethazine makes SWIM feel.
So back to SWIM's original question, any recreation value for the Nubain alone? and if so what would be the best way to use it?

Last edited by ~lostgurl~; 12-04-2009 at 23:44. Reason: price discussion
  #2  
Old 12-04-2009, 21:49
trannyboy trannyboy is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

I wouldn't recommend injecting the promethazine. If you look in this forum there is a post recently about promethazine and at the very least it was agreed the I.V. injection was not worth the extreme dangers. I know that promethazine is injected IM and SC for other purposes but I would be hesitant to inject it unless your doctor has prescribed continuing injection (IM or SC) in the past for legitimate medical purposes. There are a couple of people on this forum who know a lot more then me about promethazine, hopefully they will have some suggestions.

In terms of the nubain here are my concerns but bear in mind that I haven't personally used it or had the opertunity to use it in my professional life. Since SWIyou have been taking hydrocodone regularly SWIyou are likely addicted and hydrocodone is a pure agonist. It is known that taking a mixed agonist/ antagonist like nubain can cause as acute withdrawl syndrome in people who are addicted to a pure agonist like hydrocodone. My concern would be that SWIyou could cause a serious withdrawl very quickly that could be physically dangerous. I am hoping others will have more information but I wouldn't recommend taking that drug because of the above concerns.

Despite this nubain AKA Nalbuphine may have some recreation usage. I would be inclinded to wait and see what others have to say before SWIyou proceed. Best of luck no matter what SWIyou do.

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  #3  
Old 12-04-2009, 22:03
Jessica_R Jessica_R is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

This past week SWIM hasn't been able to get hydrocodone. The most she can get is about 5 of the 5/500. So the most SWIM has taken a day is 15mg. Idk if that helps any.
  #4  
Old 12-04-2009, 23:08
trannyboy trannyboy is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

How long has SWIyou being taking the hydrocodone (both in general and daily use) and have SWIyou had symptoms of withdrawl when SWIyou couldn't take it? If SWIyou don't have any physical addiction SWIyou should be alright but if SWIyou have had any physical addiction SWIyou will probably have problems. The severity should be based on the level of addiction.

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  #5  
Old 12-04-2009, 23:43
Jessica_R Jessica_R is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

I'd say a year give or take. There have been periods where SWIM has quit for a little less than a month. like SWIM said before this past week shes only been taking 15-25 mgs a day. SWIM doesn't take the promethazine but knows a lot of people who do and since it comes free with it might as well sale it. And as for withdrawals SWIM will just wake up in cold sweats. That's pretty much it besides craving it a little bit.

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Last edited by ~lostgurl~; 13-04-2009 at 13:06. Reason: price discussion
  #6  
Old 12-04-2009, 23:46
ganjahero420 ganjahero420 is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

^ no prices!! read the rules your pricing and incriminating yourself. if your gonna be here please respect the rules. as the OP said dont IV promethazine and dont IV ANYTHING unless swiy seriously knows what they are doing. as for nubaine i have no experience with it. the promethazine has no value on its own it will jsut potentiate the nubaine.

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good looking out, IV warning
  #7  
Old 12-04-2009, 23:47
Jessica_R Jessica_R is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

I'd say a year give or take. There have been periods where SWIM has quit for a little less than a month. like SWIM said before this past week shes only been taking 15-25 mgs a day. SWIM doesn't take the promethazine but knows a lot of people who do and since it comes free with it might as well sale it. And as for withdrawals SWIM will just wake up in cold sweats. That's pretty much it besides craving it a little bit.
  #8  
Old 13-04-2009, 00:28
pinksox pinksox is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Nubain is both an opioid agonist AND antagonist. It will throw an opiate-dependent person into withdrawals..although it's great for opiate-naive ppl. SWIM never gives Nubain to any patient on long-term opioids. IF one is opiate-dependent DO NOT USE NUBAIN!!!

The IV dose of Phenergan is 6.25-12.5mg pushed slow over 1-2 minutes. Start low as one can't take back too much but can always add more. SWIM also adds normal saline to the rest of the syringe as Phenergan is fairly hard (burns) on the inside of veins. Always better to dilute as much as possible.

Honestly, Phenergan(promethazine) is quite easy to get at an MD appt just for the asking. Say SWIY has been getting nausea with headaches...or, if one is prescribed them, SWIY has been getting nauseous from the opiates. It's not a controlled substance so docs pretty much give it out for the asking. Just be such to keep some Benedryl(diphenhydramine) in the house for the rare event of a dystonic reaction to the Phenergan. It's not worth screwing around with veins if one doesnt have to. And it should NEVER be done with the gauge of needle that's used to draw up from vials. One will wreck their veins damn fast that way.

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good advice

Last edited by pinksox; 13-04-2009 at 00:40.
  #9  
Old 13-04-2009, 07:13
trannyboy trannyboy is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Thanks Pinksox, I thought that was the case with the nubain.

Yeah I am going to have to say don't take the nubain SWIjessica. You might be alright given the mild withdrawl but more likely then not it will cause you problems you don't want. As for IVing I know SWIyou said it was to be given IM in the butt but from personal experience it isn't worth it to give yourself a shot in the butt. Twisting your back like that will hurt most people's back. If SWIyou are going to give it IM then use your thigh. That muscle is large enough to take a fairly large injection though on you I would say no more then 3ml. Since I don't recommend selling/ giving away your medication I would say either try and get your money back or toss it. Take cae and play safe.

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  #10  
Old 13-04-2009, 22:06
LinusMundane LinusMundane is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica_R View Post
SWIM takes around 10 of the hydrocodone the 10/325 a day. SWIM cut down from 14 of the 7.5mg ones a day.

Wait, ten 10's a day is 100mg of oxy 14 7.5's is 105 mg's... You cut down 5 mg's lol SWIM realizes SWIY is talking about the APAP but it was still kinda funny.

On the IV note, please find another way to take SWIY's stuff. IVing causes so many other problems and its just not worth it.

LinusMundane added 1 Minutes and 14 Seconds later...

obviously, SWIY meant Hydro above.

LinusMundane added 0 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

arrgh lol SWIM meant SWIM instead of SWIY!!!

Last edited by LinusMundane; 13-04-2009 at 22:06. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #11  
Old 13-04-2009, 22:15
Jessica_R Jessica_R is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Aight so I guess SWIM just stay away from the Nubain?
  #12  
Old 13-04-2009, 22:30
pinksox pinksox is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

SWIM wouldn't...but SWIM is opiate-dependent. Nubain would make SWIM, or any other opiate-dependent person, feel like complete shit.

As far as the Phenergan(promethazine) goes...it's great for potentiating opiates, but it's soooo easily obtained in pill form that going the IV route really, really isn't worth it. The stuff is pretty caustic to veins and SWIY would definitely have to go obtain some proper IV injection needles as the ones used to draw up from vials are far too big for repeated IV use.

Phenergan is so easily obtained if one has a decent relationship with their PCP they may even be willing to call it in to the pharmacy over the phone without even seeing SWIY. Puking with tension headaches or nausea from prescribed opiates are two common reasons it's prescribed. If not, it can easily be gotten from a quick office visit for the same reasons.

Honestly, it's one of those meds SWIM believes should be OTC much like Zantac is. And, it is, in fact, OTC in many countrys other than the US.

Last edited by pinksox; 14-04-2009 at 14:44.
  #13  
Old 14-04-2009, 04:41
trannyboy trannyboy is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Yeah the odds are the nubain will cause SWIjessica problems, so taking it is a bad idea. So the answer is don't take it. I know for SWIM it would be absolutely a horrible idea and possibly dangerous as rapid detox can cause serious health issues. I have to wonder why whoever supplied it to you would do it. Odds are they are a medical professional and likely are aware of your addiction. Perhaps they don't like you? I would be careful with anything else they recommend/ provide/ sell because they either want you to suffer or aren't that smart. Either one isn't a good thing in a supplier.

There is no reason to IV promethazine and a lot of reasons not to. If you really must take it by needle then do it subcutaneous or IM. You can also use the liquid rectally and orally I believe. You could save it for a time when you have other opiates.

Linus- I noticed that as well, kinda strange but to each there own. At least SWIjessica isn't using as much acetaminophen though and any decrease in dosage has to be a good thing.

trannyboy

Last edited by trannyboy; 14-04-2009 at 04:42. Reason: missing sentance
  #14  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:33
Seantwoofsix Seantwoofsix is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica_R View Post
SWIM weighs 95 lbs (Give or take). SWIM recently found a connection with a hospital worker. SWIM can get Nubain and phenergan (promethazine) vials for $xxx for BOTH of them and the new sterile needle. The needle is the big one like the one doctors give you when you get a shot in the bum.
SWIM takes around 10 of the hydrocodone the 10/325 a day. SWIM cut down from 14 of the 7.5mg ones a day. SWIM wanted to know if there were any recreational values from the Nubain alone because the hospital worker said to mix both the vials in the needle and inject them into SWIM's butt (Upper right part), but SWIM hates the way promethazine makes SWIM feel.
So back to SWIM's original question, any recreation value for the Nubain alone? and if so what would be the best way to use it?
Hello.
I realize this post is old but I wanted to reply so that anyone who reads this in the future will have access to this knowledge. I hope you decided to take the (good) advice of many of these posters and not try injecting the Nubain. Nubain is a mixed agonist/antagonist, which is not to be confused with a partial agonist, like Subutex/Suboxone. You are clearly opiate tolerant (100 mgs of hydrocodone daily for an extended period of time) and taking Nubain would unquestionably throw you into severe withdrawals (essentially as severe of withdrawals as your body is capable of producing). This is because of the nature of the drug itself. As simply as I can put it: Nubain is a full and strong antagonist of the Mu-opiate receptor (the receptor that is responsible for inducing euphoria and sedation (as well as other effects), and the one that common opiates like morphine are agonists of. In addition, Nubain is a strong agonist of the Kappa-opiate receptor: it is responsible for (among other things) the disphoria that opiates such as morphine also produce, the notable difference is that morphine is a relatively weak agonist of the K-receptor compared to Nubain. To make this point as simple as possible: Nubain switches off the "good" opiate receptor and switches on the "bad one. The most notable effect that both pure agonists (like morphine) and Nubain share is analgesia (pain blocking), although it is a different type/level of analgesia. I think going into the differences in the pharmaco-dynamics of analgesia in both drugs is well beyond the scope of what I am trying to say here, but anyone seriously interested in this topic should look it up. Nubain is abused however, by those who are strictly looking for a strong pain-killer and who are not opiate tolerant (such as body-builders). This is very likely the reason that Nubain is not a scheduled drug (at least in the USA). In addition, I can offer some personal experience to this question: A"friend of mine" who was taking 8mgs of Subutex daily once ran out of medication one week early and acquired a 20ml vial of Nubain. Foolishly, he tried taking the Nubain (10mgs by intravenous administration) before refreshing his knowledge of the pharmacology of this drug. Needless to say, it was one of the worst decisions he ever made. It was, without a doubt, the worst opiate withdrawals he had ever experienced. Fortunately, these severe withdrawals did not last long (about two hours, max), but he would definitely and strongly recommend against any opiate tolerant person using Nubain. On a positive note, my friend was rudely reminded that he was not all-knowing when it came to pharmacology, and learned never again to take a pharmaceutical recreationally before he has a good understanding of its theoretical effects.

Seantwoofsix added 6 Minutes and 56 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trannyboy View Post
Yeah the odds are the nubain will cause SWIjessica problems, so taking it is a bad idea. So the answer is don't take it. I know for SWIM it would be absolutely a horrible idea and possibly dangerous as rapid detox can cause serious health issues. I have to wonder why whoever supplied it to you would do it. Odds are they are a medical professional and likely are aware of your addiction. Perhaps they don't like you? I would be careful with anything else they recommend/ provide/ sell because they either want you to suffer or aren't that smart. Either one isn't a good thing in a supplier.

There is no reason to IV promethazine and a lot of reasons not to. If you really must take it by needle then do it subcutaneous or IM. You can also use the liquid rectally and orally I believe. You could save it for a time when you have other opiates.

Linus- I noticed that as well, kinda strange but to each there own. At least SWIjessica isn't using as much acetaminophen though and any decrease in dosage has to be a good thing.

trannyboy
You are absolutely right in everything you have said here. This is very good advice. "Rapid Detox" is a perfect phrase to sum up what would happen if an opiate tolerant person were to use nubain.

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Last edited by Seantwoofsix; 08-03-2010 at 12:33. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #15  
Old 17-12-2011, 01:55
Rascal9886 Rascal9886 is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Ok, take is from someone who just made this mistake. I'm a little older retired from the service, and after 4 tours, and then retirement. decided to pick up some old habbits. As drugs of any kind are not tolerated in the Military. So, due to pain from injuries inccured in the line of duty and a diagnosis of PTSD, I was in heaven. i'm not saying I dont suffer from these things I am just saying I used them to my advantage. But to stay on point. I take about 300mg of Oxycontin a day, I live in a country where I can just get it over the counter. However one day I heard of this Nubain, which already came in a vial and so I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of... yada yada yada.... so stupidly I filled up a nice big 1ml/10mg shot, and BANG, lets just say I didnt even make it to the toilet. I am not a doctor and I no nothing about pharmacology. but through trial and error. I know now don't take these together.
  #16  
Old 19-12-2011, 02:34
Rascal9886 Rascal9886 is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

also, AFOAF, was wondering if going back on Pain Killers like Oxy ect ect.... will have the same effect?
  #17  
Old 19-12-2011, 03:53
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

The rapid detox for sure....but Swim used nubain for a time....he enjoyed it...nubain flows nicely through a 25gauge needle(insulin). Swim also muscled it in his delt, but your bum is fine. At the time,Swim didn't have an opiate dependence. He was alternating norcos(hydrocodone 10/325) and Nubain every other day. Not very exciting but that was the routine.
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Old 19-12-2011, 09:08
Rascal9886 Rascal9886 is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

I think I might not of been clear with what I was trying to learn,

If this FOAF now were to take and Oxy, would there be some kind of harsh withdrawal from the Nubian
  #19  
Old 19-12-2011, 20:17
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

I would have to brush up on my terminology...but I believe nubain is an opiate agonist. If swim is dependent/addicted to the oxycodone, then taking nubain before the opiates are out of your system would send swim into wd's. One should wait until one begins to feel wd symptoms before hitting the nubain.
This is what folks do before suboxone is administered...that, or folks are given subutex(sp?) and then suboxone. The subutex(sp?) is bupenephrine without the nalaxone(sp?)
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Old 20-12-2011, 04:55
Rascal9886 Rascal9886 is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Exactly my friends pet was on 300mg of Oxy a day, my pets friend lives in a land where slipping a Pharmacist a few extra bucks under the table can get him anything listed in the MIMS (aka known to man) so my friends little pet heard of this Nubian, scurried to the local pharmacy and got 2, 1ml vials, the little pet was so excited he might have found something he didnt have to crush up ...yadayada... So after a 10 mg shot, detox from the 300mg of oxy a day was so fast the poor little critter didnt even make it to the bath room, as the poor little guy was sitting on the can, sweating and shaking, hopeing not to pull an Elvis Presley, but after a few hours the poor little thing was able to make it to bed
The question is if my friends little pet now takes Oxy, will it interact with the Nubian causing the same result?
  #21  
Old 21-12-2011, 01:34
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal9886 View Post
Exactly my friends pet was on 300mg of Oxy a day, my pets friend lives in a land where slipping a Pharmacist a few extra bucks under the table can get him anything listed in the MIMS (aka known to man) so my friends little pet heard of this Nubian, scurried to the local pharmacy and got 2, 1ml vials, the little pet was so excited he might have found something he didnt have to crush up ...yadayada... So after a 10 mg shot, detox from the 300mg of oxy a day was so fast the poor little critter didnt even make it to the bath room, as the poor little guy was sitting on the can, sweating and shaking, hopeing not to pull an Elvis Presley, but after a few hours the poor little thing was able to make it to bed
The question is if my friends little pet now takes Oxy, will it interact with the Nubian causing the same result?
If that pet is dependent/addicted..then yes.
  #22  
Old 21-12-2011, 23:54
DrJoeyMDPhD DrJoeyMDPhD is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica_R View Post
SWIM weighs 95 lbs (Give or take). SWIM recently found a connection with a hospital worker. SWIM can get Nubain and phenergan (promethazine) vials for $xxx for BOTH of them and the new sterile needle. The needle is the big one like the one doctors give you when you get a shot in the bum.
SWIM takes around 10 of the hydrocodone the 10/325 a day. SWIM cut down from 14 of the 7.5mg ones a day. SWIM wanted to know if there were any recreational values from the Nubain alone because the hospital worker said to mix both the vials in the needle and inject them into SWIM's butt (Upper right part), but SWIM hates the way promethazine makes SWIM feel.
So back to SWIM's original question, any recreation value for the Nubain alone? and if so what would be the best way to use it?
FROM DR JOEY...When I was doing my residency, there was a lot of talk about residents getting high on Nubain. However, I also was half-way through a PhD in Pharmacology. I believe Nubain should be placed is Schedule III. I knew what a lot of resident didn't about the agonist/antagonist "double whammy". I occasionally hospitalize patients, although I send our junior partner on hospital consults. (He has to get the experience and I did plenty of them.) As for "good feelings," I suspect Nubain would probably pack the punch of a shot of oxycodone (cerepus partis = all other things equal). I don't know enough about Nubain to make more than an educated guess, We don't use it much anymore at all. I;'d never order it for pain, that's for sure.

Now, about Phenergan for Injection. Injecting Phenergan (which is the brane name of promethazine) is very tricky. I'm good with my hands (actually, a real complement for a shrink), and I would have to take it slowly and deliberately. In fact, if the patient were vomiting uncontrollably, I'd give IM Thorazine 25-50mg, because Thorazine is an easy drug to inject. a botched Phenergan IV injection administered by an Charge Nurse (RN BSN,MSN) resulted in a multi-million dollar law suit. When I read the particulars (this goes back a while), it seems to me that she fucked up.

Since I have chronic Classic Migraine.Migraint Variant/Muscle Contraction headaches, I know more about pain meds than I should! I have a few patients who have this unenviable syndrome as a co-morbidity to their psych diagnoses and as long as an Internist is following up medically I don't mind treating them. Promethazine is an EXCELLENT potentiator of opiates. In years agony, the drug Merpergan contained Demerol (meperidine) and Phenergan (prometh). It was available in two different strengths and, I believe, marketed by the same company that manufactured Phenergan.

I prefer not to take more than 2 x Percocet 10/325 for a "bad headache," so I take promethaszine 25mg p.o. instead. Because I take Adderall [in lieu of Dexedrine, of which there is a shortage in the Northeast), I don't experience any drowsiness, but the average patient might. The generic 25mg tabs are scored and I believe a 12.5mg strength is available. It really works. One colleague who specializes in headache was amazed that I didn't include Demerol, Dilaudid, morphine, etc., while giving her my hx. Fortunately, my own mentor, who suffers from the same "headache disease" — until we were doing so research and saw several promising studies suggesting Pamelor (nortriptyline, also Aventyl) as prophylactic. We visited the Chief of Neurology at a large hospital where he had founded the Department of Psychiatry and Neurology (as it was called 60 years ago) and he and I were Chief of Psychiatry at different times. They did an advance search and the results were encouraging. Laden with printouts, we went to my car and each of us called the other's pharmacy with a script for nortriptyline 10mg tabs - 1 or 2 hs. If 10mg didn't work within a couple of days, increase the dose to 20mg. If that didn't work within 3-5 days, give it up.

Neeedless to say, my friend and colleague finally achieved freedom from "bad headaches" (a decrease of 95+}%, as did his daughter. I ended up giving him the remainder of my 90d supply after a month at 20mg hs didn't work at all.

Incidentally, I direct your attention to Seantwoofsix's post of 8/10. I think we might have had a pharmacology class or two together!

There's really no excuse, even medically, to inject Phenergan (promethazine). To do so to get high is just plain stupid...although I know all about junkie's love affair which the needle, the ritual, the procedure. I read the Nubain prescribing information because that's what we're supposed to do when a new drug is available, whether one's practice is hospital-based or not.

Shooting promethazine is just plain stupid. Whjen I was a Chief Resident in Psychiatry, back around 1985, I busted a resident for diverting Nubain and working under the influence. An "Rx only drug" isn't closely monitored in terms of supply — those of you with pain conditions need only remember the original TALWIN tabs — Since it's impossible for a resident physician not to have access to "Rx only" drugs (we could have set conditions that he consult another MD before a nurse would provide stuff from the "Narcotics Cabinet," another nostalgic name), we had to fire him. And he had been a resident > one year; that meant he took and passed the boards and had his own license and DEA Reg. No. My boss's boss handled things after that. I was deposed and they struck a deal. He was a great resident otherwise!

Dr. JoeyMDPhD

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"just plain stupid." knowledge can be shared in a way that is non judgemental of methods you disagree with.
  #23  
Old 23-12-2011, 18:17
stayupandplay stayupandplay is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Hey Doc....fun post...when I read between the lines through all your fun stories, I see "DEA" and deposed resident...and how you "busted" him...then earlier in your post you insert a bit of profanity with an "F" bomb. I would also hope you wouldn't fall back on how you had to "bust" him because of your integrity or how the resident was under your charge and to cover yourself you had to crack him. You feel as if you have carte blanche to prescribe yourself anything you wish? You believe you're qualified to decide what you need? I believe I do as well. I'm thinking the resident did also?
I enjoy your posts as you have much information to share. I would just hope for some kindness and understanding. I don't believe you to be a hypocrite in any way. You just sounded a bit uncaring and somewhat of a tattle tale. I wouldn't want any of the members thinking of you as a snitch as I believe you to be a well intentioned professional with a unique bedside manner.

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well worded!

Last edited by stayupandplay; 23-12-2011 at 18:47. Reason: Professional courtesy.....
  #24  
Old 23-12-2011, 18:59
Pinkavvy Pinkavvy is offline
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Re: Nubain (Nalbuphine HCL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stayupandplay View Post
Hey Doc....fun post...when I read between the lines through all your fun stories, I see "DEA" and deposed resident...and how you "busted" him...then earlier in your post you insert a bit of profanity with an "F" bomb. I would also hope you wouldn't fall back on how you had to "bust" him because of your integrity or how the resident was under your charge and to cover yourself you had to crack him. You feel as if you have carte blanche to prescribe yourself anything you wish? You believe you're qualified to decide what you need? I believe I do as well. I'm thinking the resident did also?
I enjoy your posts as you have much information to share. I would just hope for some kindness and understanding. I don't believe you to be a hypocrite in any way. You just sounded a bit uncaring and somewhat of a tattle tale. I wouldn't want any of the members thinking of you as a snitch as I believe you to be a well intentioned professional with a unique bedside manner.
Very well worded, my friend.
Anybody who can find a reason to justify deposing against a fellow chemical enthusiest is a confused self-loathing type I would think.

It is difficult for me to accept somebody who self medicates admittedly to judge somebody else for doing so. Some people need to be educated for the purpose of SAFETY, but it doesn't help to judge or tell on somebody.

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