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  #1  
Old 07-04-2009, 00:19
100mg Methylphenidate 100mg Methylphenidate is offline
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Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

So swim came across some morphine tablets. He let his dealer know, and his dealer got a bulk supply to sell to some of his pill addicted friends. These people will pay a lot of money to get vicodin, and that's mostly what they take. Just tons and tons of vicodin.

The morphine pills are 30mg instant release. Swim checked them out, they're the real deal and they messed swim up.

The dealers friends didn't like the morphine pills at all. They claim they would much rather have a single Watson 540(the blue pills with 10mg hydrocodone, 500mg APAP) than one 30mg morphine pill.

My question is, how is this possible? Swim is confused as hell. We're thinking it's got to be a placebo effect. Even a narcotic converter will at minimum rank morphine as potent as hydrocodone. So basically, one of those morphine pills should be like taking 3 of the 10/500 hydrocodone/apap pills. Now the dealer is frustrated and is trying to get rid of them cheaper but none of his friends still want to buy them.

Swim is thinking the fact that the hydrocodones are bigger pills gives some sort of placebo. Also, these people take hydrocodone at least 2 or 3 times a week and well pay 30-50% more for the pills than normal if they can't find them. Any other ideas?
  #2  
Old 07-04-2009, 00:36
ScorpioSunshine ScorpioSunshine is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

While my friend swim doesn't have any official ideas, she says that her garden gnome also prefers hydrocodone over morphine. Why? I don't know and swim says the garden gnome can't really explain it. Morphine seems to have a much different effect on the gnome, where the Watsons (or hydrocodone in general) seem to give a better euphoric, fuzzy feeling, morphine just doesn't do it for the gnome and seems to cause more edginess and less euphoria. The gnome is very experienced, too.

Perhaps it's not really a placebo effect, just more of a matter of different substances affecting different people in different ways. It could be a group mentality thing, too, where one person enjoys or gets a better effect from one over the other, and the herd follows. Swim isn't sure, but she knows her gnome prefers hydros and knows that it's definitely not a placebo effect.

(Also, swim was dealing with stronger morphine -- 60mg! and believes she had some 80s as well. )
  #3  
Old 07-04-2009, 00:37
Matt The Funk Matt The Funk is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100mg Methylphenidate View Post
So swim came across some morphine tablets. He let his dealer know, and his dealer got a bulk supply to sell to some of his pill addicted friends. These people will pay a lot of money to get vicodin, and that's mostly what they take. Just tons and tons of vicodin.

The morphine pills are 30mg instant release. Swim checked them out, they're the real deal and they messed swim up.

The dealers friends didn't like the morphine pills at all. They claim they would much rather have a single Watson 540(the blue pills with 10mg hydrocodone, 500mg APAP) than one 30mg morphine pill.

My question is, how is this possible? Swim is confused as hell. We're thinking it's got to be a placebo effect. Even a narcotic converter will at minimum rank morphine as potent as hydrocodone. So basically, one of those morphine pills should be like taking 3 of the 10/500 hydrocodone/apap pills. Now the dealer is frustrated and is trying to get rid of them cheaper but none of his friends still want to buy them.

Swim is thinking the fact that the hydrocodones are bigger pills gives some sort of placebo. Also, these people take hydrocodone at least 2 or 3 times a week and well pay 30-50% more for the pills than normal if they can't find them. Any other ideas?
Not placebo, I forget the exact reason but I am pretty sure they have a slightly different mechanism of action that can account for certain reasons one may perfer it to morphine, SWIM also personally perfers hydrocdone 10x over to morphine sulfate, but I am too lazy to find it(info), just informing you.

Last edited by Matt The Funk; 07-04-2009 at 01:05.
  #4  
Old 07-04-2009, 01:03
OhCasey OhCasey is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Not all opiates give the same type of effects even at equal potency. Swim and every lab rat hes friends with prefer Hydrocodone over morphine. Morphine for swim produces mores cns depressing effects but lacks anywhere near the level of euphoria that Hydrocodone produces. Swims friend constantly wants to trade his 60 mg morphine pills 1 for 1 for swims 10/325 Hydrocodone. Swim just doesnt find the pills pleasureable enough to trade a 10 mg hydro for a 60 mg morphine XR, even when he defeats the time release and plugs, snorts or chews them.

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  #5  
Old 07-04-2009, 01:13
LinusMundane LinusMundane is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

SWIM will never understand anyone wanting hydro over anything, though SWIM does feel like he's missing out on something based on what other swimmers here post but morphine is nice, oxy is nicer and hydro has never done a damn thing for him.
  #6  
Old 07-04-2009, 01:41
Herbal Healer 019 Herbal Healer 019 is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Some1 Who Aint Me would def. go for the 30mg morphine sulfates over a single 10mg hydrocodone & thinks the fact that any1 would rather have a single 10mg hydrocodone over 30mg morphine is crazy as hell.

SWAM personally likes hydrocodone over morphine simply because its more a more upbeat & largely less nauseating high when compared to morphine. Morphine is a very euphoric high but in more of a downer/sedating way whereas hydrocodone is more of a social/upbeat opiate high...this may be why ppl are prefering the hydrocodone over the morphine, but it's really all about opinion.

SWAM would say boost the price on the hydrocodones @ a high enough price to get the morphine pills for free & save the morphine pills for personal use if SWIY can't get rid of the morphines.

FYI: Selling drugs of any kind is bad & I dont condone the sale of any illegal substances
  #7  
Old 07-04-2009, 02:08
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

It's important to note that hydrocodone is converted to hydromorphone, otherwise known as Dilauded, in the liver upon ingestion. Theoretically, hydromorphone should be quite a bit more potent than morphine due to mu-opioid receptor interaction (I've read 5 times as potent, but I have an issue with this).

I think that genetic differences come into play regarding the differences in preference between individuals. The conversion of hydrocodone to hydromorphone is preformed by an enzyme in the liver; different people may have different amino acid sequences in their genome that will code for different proportions of the enzymes found in the liver. Therefore, different individuals will preform the conversion at different rates and produce varying quantities of hydromorphone due to lower enzyme-substrate interaction.

Some studies have suggested that morphine is actually more efficient at binding mu-opioid receptors than hydrocodone, while most suggest that hydrocodone is more akin to highly potent thebaine derivatives like oxycodone in potency.

In other words, there will never be a consensus as to which is the most potent - but a majority of the planet would agree that hydrocodone is stronger.

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good informative answer
thanks for explaining the science behind your answer.
Explained pretty much everything I needed to know.
Well explained.
  #8  
Old 07-04-2009, 03:13
100mg Methylphenidate 100mg Methylphenidate is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Hm. I read somewhere that hydrocodone used to be considered equal potency as morphine, and recently was dropped down to 2/3 the potency of morphine.

For swim, morphine is a lot less sedating and more euphoric than hydrocodone. There's also a lot less nausea.

Thanks for your replies though. Swim and I were definitely confused beyond belief.

On a side note. One nice thing about the morphine over the hydrocodone is that it's possible to insufflate the morphine. Not that snorting is the best route of administration in either case, but if one is looking for quicker onset and has money/pills to blow, it's a nice advantage.
  #9  
Old 07-04-2009, 04:09
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

And then there is the bioavailability issue. When a morphine tablet is eaten, only about 20-30% of the actual drug is absorbed, so SWIYs 30 mg morphines would FEEL like 8-10mgs if eaten, and SWIM even would prefer 10 mgs of hydro to 10 mgs of morph.
The magic of morphine is only released through insufflation, orally it is an incredibly ineffective substance (consider the fact that heroin is just diacetylated morphine, and NO ONE uses heroin orally)
SWIM is guessing by the fact that SWIYs dealer's customers only make small hydro buys twice a week that they are not addicts, merely recreational users/borderline habitual. When SWIM was back in that phase he would have preferred the hydro too.
SWIM would advise SWIY and dealer to just keep the morphs for headstash, the custys are obviously too naieve to see the good deal being offered.

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I found the information very useful.
  #10  
Old 07-04-2009, 04:15
100mg Methylphenidate 100mg Methylphenidate is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Ah. Thank you. I got confused again and thought morphine bioavailability was lower insufflated than oral but I was thinking of oxycodone. I'm having an off day today...XD
  #11  
Old 07-04-2009, 05:19
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EyesOfTheWorld View Post
And then there is the bioavailability issue. When a morphine tablet is eaten, only about 20-30% of the actual drug is absorbed, so SWIYs 30 mg morphines would FEEL like 8-10mgs if eaten, and SWIM even would prefer 10 mgs of hydro to 10 mgs of morph.
The magic of morphine is only released through insufflation, orally it is an incredibly ineffective substance (consider the fact that heroin is just diacetylated morphine, and NO ONE uses heroin orally)
SWIM is guessing by the fact that SWIYs dealer's customers only make small hydro buys twice a week that they are not addicts, merely recreational users/borderline habitual. When SWIM was back in that phase he would have preferred the hydro too.
SWIM would advise SWIY and dealer to just keep the morphs for headstash, the custys are obviously too naieve to see the good deal being offered.
according to Davis, Glare and Hardy in Opiods in Cancer Pain: both bind the same receptors, but these receptors are g-protein coupled receptors, and different ligands can elicit different effects because of potential differential downstream (of receptor binding) chemical actions.

In addition, metabolites can have effects, and each opioid has its own more or less unique set. last, but not least (and swim thinks has been mentioned already in this thread) hydrocodone has similar effects to oxycodone on the receptors it binds and is well-absorbed in the gi tract, whereas morphine is not highly bioavailable orally, and so tanslates to lower overall levels (as when compared to hydrocodone).

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I learned something new about oxy, hydrocodone, and morphine

Last edited by Ilsa; 07-04-2009 at 05:21. Reason: spelling
  #12  
Old 08-04-2009, 04:23
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Yeah the oral availablity for morphine is quite low and less then 1% is normally converted to hydromorphone. In fact the urine drug test allows for no more then 5% hydromorphone to morphine in the system as the cut off to determine if someone is using hydromorphone in addition to morphine. Morphine has a larger negative side effect panel and produces less euphoria then hydrocodone especially in the non opiate niave community. Then you have to take into account how each individual's body works, I know SWIM doesn't bother with morphine because it has very little effect for their body.

Then of course everyone has their ideal drug choice and very few people will choose anything other then their ideal if it is available. You also have the placebo effect as in if they believe it won't work then by golly they are right it won't work. SWIM's advice save the morphine for when the dealer can't get anything else at the moment. Then have him talk it up like it is god's gift to humanity and they will buy it sure as the sun will rise tomorrow and probably like it.

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  #13  
Old 08-04-2009, 12:33
ConcertaXL ConcertaXL is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

It's not all about potency... once you have enough opiate to match your tolerance, taking more will often not get you higher and can increase the side effects. The complexities of how opiates react with receptors in the brain are not explicated by a potency "league table" intended for converting between one pharm and another for pain relief.
Morphine is the gold standard of analgesia, but it can make people feel too zombie-like because of its strength. Hydrocodone on the other hand is often more euphoric, although this is more to do with the chemical itself than the conversion to hydromorphone (only -10% of it is metabolized into HM, in the same way oxy partially metabolizes into oxymorphone.)

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Yes, mophine is the "gold standard" medical professionals gauge other opiates by
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Old 08-04-2009, 18:48
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcertaXL View Post
Morphine is the gold standard of analgesia, but it can make people feel too zombie-like because of its strength. Hydrocodone on the other hand is often more euphoric, although this is more to do with the chemical itself than the conversion to hydromorphone (only -10% of it is metabolized into HM, in the same way oxy partially metabolizes into oxymorphone.)
ConcertaXL,

What else is there to hydrocodone, other than its conversion to hydromorphone, that is significant here? - could you be more specific? Actually, the conversion of hydrocodone to hydromorphone sums up the compound's more subjectively reported euphoric effects pretty nicely - when comparing hydromorphone to morphine, hydromorphone has a higher affinity and efficacy at the mu-opioid receptor. It would therefore be expected to have a greater 'strength' than morphine. In fact, I've read from some sources (though this could easily be mistaken) that the other metabolite of hydrocodone - noroxyhydrocodone - isn't actually psychoactive. The conversion is sufficient to describe the differences in effects, and the 10% conversion rate is going to vary between individuals.

Since when is morphine the 'gold standard of analgesia'? - in what setting? There is no cure-all to pain, either in the doctor's office or prescriptions at home. Hell, in the dentist's office, intravenous demerol (a completely synthetic opiate) is the convention. It's always nice to site a source of data when making characterizations like 'can make people feel too zombie-like because of its strength' - what does this statement really mean? That morphine has a greater strength then hydromorphone? I'm confused...

-G

Last edited by Gradient; 08-04-2009 at 18:49. Reason: typo
  #15  
Old 08-04-2009, 18:59
100mg Methylphenidate 100mg Methylphenidate is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...ne&btnG=Search

There are a lot of places saying that morphine is the gold standard. Swim got IV'd morphine at the hospital for his kidney stone. I think morphine is used a lot to compare other pain medications potency. I've heard oxycodone is 1.5-2 times stronger than 'morphine' and hydrocodone is 2/3 - 1 x the potency of 'morphine.' And why is demerol used in the dentists office? Swim's never had any type of opiate pain relief from the dentist, only some vicodin the oral surgeon gave him. Which did not help his pain at allllllll and they wouldn't give him anything stronger.
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Old 08-04-2009, 19:09
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

100mg Methylphenidate,

A google search isn't data. If one switched ibuprofen for morphine, similar results come up. You, and ConcertaXL, are both correct in saying that morphine is most widely used to alleviate pain in surgical settings. Perhaps I miscommunicated my point: What exactly is this point supposed to communicate? Strength? If it is supposed to express that most of the medical community 'trusts' the effects of morphine, then sure, I suppose that's correct. My point: It simply says nothing about the compound's inherent strength.

Yes, morphine is almost always used to compare the effects of other opiate compounds; it was the compound used to first discover the mu-opioid receptor.

If you go ahead and use your google search method, search demerol denstists - I got 31,600, surely most of them garbage, but plenty of cases.

-G
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Old 08-04-2009, 19:34
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

I wasn't using that as proof. I was just pointing out that it's posted all over the internet at various sources. Not that they're necessarily the most reliable ones. Such as wikipedia's morphine article. Nor am I suggesting morphine is the best drug for pain relief. I was just suggesting that's why one might have came to that conclusion that morphine is the gold standard of anything.
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Old 08-04-2009, 22:39
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Gradient, regarding your criticisms of my post:
1)Intravenous meperidine? This drug is very rarely used due to severe toxicity and side effects, the worst of any common opiate, and the fact it is often insufficient for the category of pain it was prescribed for. I have never heard of it being a "convention" in the 21st century for any type of medical situation.
2)Morphine on the other hand is the PROTOTYPICAL painkiller, the one generally given across the world, with a place on the WHO essential drugs list, the first opiate drug given for pain a century before many current synthetics were even invented, the strongest and major constituent of the natural opium poppy and universally recognized even among the non-drug-educated hoi polloi. One google search is NOT reliable data but when it returns a number of medically reliable websites written by professionals which all use the phrase "gold standard", the combination of these is data to support me. Morphine making people feel like zombies is from a number of anecdotal sources, and does not suggest it is stronger than hydromorphone but 200mg pills exist for morph so higher doses could be a factor.
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Old 09-04-2009, 18:57
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Its all about the route.
From my fish's hospital exeriences, morphine does seem to be the standard IV pain med. When my fish wasnt responding to the morphine sufficiently, guess what they gave him as an alternative? Demerol!

Morphine sucks orally, but is a diff story IV (or IN actually). As for comparing effects with hydro... my fish finds morphine to be more euphoric and "feel good" but hydro to be more "stoning" maybe?

He can't really compare effects orally, since he finds morphine to be basically a waste orally, he rarely uses it that way.

Now days he prefers about 20mg of hydro orally, with around 60mg of morphine snorted, at the end of the day when his 110mg of methadone is wearing off... when he can afford it.
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Old 16-04-2009, 03:58
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Some opiates are more potent but less euphoric and vice versa. SWIM for instance feels that poppy tea, which contains morphine, codeine, and several other opiates is much stronger than hydrocodone, but far less "fun". She would take pills over pods any day, no matter that the pills provide a much shorter, less intense high. Of course everyone has their own preferences, but there's even oxycontin addicts who prefer oxy over heroin, which is supposed to be the holy grail of opiates. Go figure.

There's just somthin' about hydrocodone.
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Old 16-04-2009, 04:21
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcertaXL View Post
Gradient, regarding your criticisms of my post:
1)Intravenous meperidine? This drug is very rarely used due to severe toxicity and side effects, the worst of any common opiate, and the fact it is often insufficient for the category of pain it was prescribed for. I have never heard of it being a "convention" in the 21st century for any type of medical situation.
2)Morphine on the other hand is the PROTOTYPICAL painkiller, the one generally given across the world, with a place on the WHO essential drugs list, the first opiate drug given for pain a century before many current synthetics were even invented, the strongest and major constituent of the natural opium poppy and universally recognized even among the non-drug-educated hoi polloi. One google search is NOT reliable data but when it returns a number of medically reliable websites written by professionals which all use the phrase "gold standard", the combination of these is data to support me. Morphine making people feel like zombies is from a number of anecdotal sources, and does not suggest it is stronger than hydromorphone but 200mg pills exist for morph so higher doses could be a factor.
ConcertaXL,

Will you please provide evidence to back up your claims? I'd love to see a source that says that Demerol is so dangerous - I'd have the potential for a couple great lawsuits lined up! Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by the fact that one can simply ingest more morphine to elicit a stronger effect than a given dose of hydrocodone. At equivalent doses, hydrocodone should be stronger because it is converted to something more potent at the receptor than morphine - hydromorphone. Here is a website to confirm this metabolism:

http://www.paindr.com/06-2005%20Opio...te%20Chart.pdf

Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but it might help communication to observe a slightly less confrontational tone when discussing subjects over internet forums. This is a great way to avoid unintended offenses, and keeps the discussion focused on-topic rather than become side-tracked by arguments. For example, capital letters are pretty unnecessary to emphasize a word, and more often then not, communicate hostility rather then information. This isn't a criticism, just a suggestion to obviate any unintentional hostility.
  #22  
Old 16-04-2009, 10:53
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Gradient,
I have multiple sources saying Meperidine/Pethidine was the opiate of choice for severe pain for much of the 20th century, but has fallen out of favour because of 1) its extreme addiction potential (due to rapid speed of action and chemical structure causing it to have a "speedball" effect, with stimulation as well as opioid behaviour.), 2) being less effective than morphine, oxycodone or hydrocodone at treating serious pain according to several placebo controlled studies, 3)huge histamine release during IV administration, seizures, comas, psychosis and delirium. Is this not dangerous?
According to most opiate potency tables I have looked at hydrocodone is around 2/3 or 3/4 the potency of morphine- it is normally considered to be 6 times stronger than codeine which is in turn 10 times weaker than morphine. This would make it six-tenths of morphine's potency. As I have previously mentioned the amount of H/C turned to H/M is usually -10% although it may vary.
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Old 16-04-2009, 15:03
Gradient Gradient is offline
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcertaXL View Post
Gradient,
I have multiple sources saying Meperidine/Pethidine was the opiate of choice for severe pain for much of the 20th century, but has fallen out of favour because of 1) its extreme addiction potential (due to rapid speed of action and chemical structure causing it to have a "speedball" effect, with stimulation as well as opioid behaviour.), 2) being less effective than morphine, oxycodone or hydrocodone at treating serious pain according to several placebo controlled studies, 3)huge histamine release during IV administration, seizures, comas, psychosis and delirium. Is this not dangerous?
According to most opiate potency tables I have looked at hydrocodone is around 2/3 or 3/4 the potency of morphine- it is normally considered to be 6 times stronger than codeine which is in turn 10 times weaker than morphine. This would make it six-tenths of morphine's potency. As I have previously mentioned the amount of H/C turned to H/M is usually -10% although it may vary.
Opiates generate histamine release - that's why people get 'the iches'. Again, please - it would be awesome to see some data to confirm these claims. I've seen sources claiming that morphine is 10X stronger than hydrocodone, and others suggest that hydrocodone is 5-6X more portent than morphine. The only possible way to determine which sources are credible is to actually be able to see the sources - I'd love to see the ones you're citing (URLs)! This isn't a criticism of you, or your ability to relay information. Rather, it is a standard for discussion; your word is only as good as the data that supports you - please allow us to judge for ourselves how good this data is.
You could very well be correct! - but the evidence that I've been exposed to contradicts what you're suggesting. Therefore, please, throw the handful of URLs up that made you feel the way you do - if it was convincing for you, then it will likely be convincing for the community as well.

Last edited by Gradient; 16-04-2009 at 19:03. Reason: typo
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Old 16-04-2009, 16:56
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

swim is shocked as hell that so many people prefer hydrocodone to morphine. cause swim while actively shooting dope and consuming any other opiate that crossed his path if heroin wasnt around found hydrocodne to be nothing more than a baby asprin, even in high doses like 50-60mg but if he shot up a 60mg morphine pill it'd take the sickness away and he'd feel a decent rush/high; swim doubts its due to different administration routes (eating hydros v. shooting morphine) cause oral methadone works for him.

are these swimmers who prefer hydro opiate addicts??? he's interested if this could come into play.

in summary of all of swims ramblings he agrees w/ the OP.
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Old 16-04-2009, 20:08
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Re: Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drug-bot View Post
swim is shocked as hell that so many people prefer hydrocodone to morphine. cause swim while actively shooting dope and consuming any other opiate that crossed his path if heroin wasnt around found hydrocodne to be nothing more than a baby asprin, even in high doses like 50-60mg but if he shot up a 60mg morphine pill it'd take the sickness away and he'd feel a decent rush/high; swim doubts its due to different administration routes (eating hydros v. shooting morphine) cause oral methadone works for him.

are these swimmers who prefer hydro opiate addicts??? he's interested if this could come into play.

in summary of all of swims ramblings he agrees w/ the OP.
Funny SWIY mentioned this. SWIM is recovering currently (relapsed last week but is doing really well) and he never used hydrocodone to offset withdrawal or take a stronger opis place for that very reason. To even really feel it he would have to take 100mg+ and even then it wasn't as great as when he would first use it. He still sees hydrocodone in the light as when he first used it, because that was his first real opiod and still one of his favorites. He also still perfers hydromorphone/codone to morphine and even diactylmorphine, and if they were more readily available to him he would have done them more often, or if hydrocodone came without APAP. Sometimes he even thinks he prefers oxycodone to the big H.

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