About To Begin Staying Clean - Worried About Depression (paws), Also NA Questions

[Leftöver Crack]

hi, swim is new here, looking for help/answers and to talk to people who are/have been in the same situation swim is in.

swim is a long time "lurker" here, this is so weird seeing what swim is typing. if swims post looks too long, please bear with as swim is desperate for help/talk to people.

yes, swim has read many, many threads here on PAWS, these are questions swim hasn't found whilst searching.

swim is 30 and is about to once again clean up and try to do the hard part, STAYING clean. swim's story is probably all too common - dope, oxy, poppy tea, hydro, darvocet, subs, etc. whatever swim can get his hands on.

swim has detoxed many times in the past. swim is not what swim calls "actively" addicted at this point in time...that is to say, swim doesn't have enough supply to be hardcore sweating/convulsing/crying detoxing right now, as swim was before. swim has a constant supply of something, so that swim is never without an opiate. swim is on his last option right now, 12 tabs darvocet 100/650 apap throughout today. last option because of the massive apap.

swim's concern at this moment, likely because swim does not have enough supply to be actively addicted, is relapsing, the depression, the total loss of appetite, the total lack of will to do anything, suicidal thoughts, etc.

swim cannot deal with after detox. swim has and will detox. swim cannot deal with after detox. after detox, swim sits and watches tv, and thinks 24/7 how the people he sees can function without opiates. eventually swim goes out in public, and wonders how the people swim sees can function without opiates.

swim is so damn desperate to getting to the point that swim sees a point in existing opiate free. swim has always, after detox, came to the conclusion that swim cannot be happy in life without opiates.

swim guesses main question is what can be done for this? swim is ready for the usual: exercise, lots of water, b6, multi vitamin, etc. has any swiy been successful at that stage, and if so, how was it done?

also, swim wonders if any swiy has been to NA, if it's helped, how often NA is needed, so on. also if any swiy would talk directly to swim, please pm swim.

swim has come to the conclusion that of all the things swim thinks swim cannot do, most of all swim cannot continue living in this hell.

Leftöver Crack added 13 Minutes and 8 Seconds later...

also (as swim doesn't see an edit feature), what is any swiy's views on marijuana while staying clean of opiates, specifically once at night to sleep? swim doesn't even like the effects of marijuana, but it does make swim sleep. swim would only smoke once, at night, to go to sleep. occasionally also in the morning if swim wakes up too early and can't get back to sleep. does this seem to make staying clean harder?

swim wants to do this right this time, to minimize the chances of relapsing.

Reputation Comments on this post:

an honest account, deserves kudos for not incriminating themselves like most newbies do

[ex-junkie]

swiy needs to stop for a second, and come to the conclusion that swiy CAN be happy in life without opiates. swim just thinks swiy needs to find themselves again. life is really weird when you come out of the "coma" as such.

sunlight is very important. your body absorbs melatonin from the sun, and it helps with sleeping patterns, mood, routine. try to avoid staying indoors with the blinds/curtains drawn. if swiy must stay inside, then sit in a room with the curtains/blinds open for half an hour in the morning. EVEN IF ITS CLOUDY/RAINING!!

as for exercise, even a ten-fifteen minute walk at a very slow pace will do wonders for your mood. even if swiy cant be arsed to do it, once swiy gets five minutes up the road swiy will be grateful that swiy did. lots of water is ALWAYS a good thing, and multi vitamins are beneficial too. try to get some tuna in swiy's diet, even if its just a tin of smoked tuna everyday. swim has found eating tuna boosts her motivation levels, and is extremely useful for creativity/study. tuna is very high in protein and essential fatty acids.

the sooner swiy accepts the end of opiate use, the sooner swiy can get on with finding who they really are. if swiy is anything like swim, then right now they dont know themselves anymore. this is perfectly normal.

swim cannot stress how much a positive attitude is necessary to recovery. swim recommends that when times are getting tough, come and post some more on drugs forum. in the process of writing down swiy's thoughts, swiy will discover things that swiy normally wouldnt have when swiy sitting by their self recycling the same old negative thoughts.

its a really useful way to identify what swiys triggers are, or to perhaps just realize that using drugs on that particular day is not for swiy. then its on to the next day. starting afresh, rather than back at square one.

swim never went to NA herself, but some people find it really helpful. some people find it unhelpful to be around other people who are trying to not to use however.

edit: if swiy is struggling with suicidal thoughts, then swiy definitely needs some counselling, and if things start to get really bad then maybe some anti depressants. swim usually advises against anti depressants because a lot of the time they do more harm than good, but if its the difference between someone living and someone committing suicide, then its a good thing.

Reputation Comments on this post:

well deserved rep, very helpful advice

[Leftöver Crack]

that's the thing...swim knows there was a time before opiates, when swim was happy before knowing them, swim sees every swiy say "keep on, one more day, it's possible...", swim realizes people who were addicts ARE happy without them now.

swim has gone as long as 3-4 months (once) without taking an opiate. every other time swim relapses as soon as WD's is over. tell swim that makes any sense at all.

it's just no matter how many times swim tells himself this when swim is clean, swim thinks its not at all possible and relapses.

swim is very sorry and apologizes because swim knows swim is asking questions that can't really be answered, swim is not trying to be annoying, swim is just desperate for ways to have hope and acknowledge swim can be happy without these f'in things.

swim has read about rewarding oneself for being good. today swim went out in anticipation of being clean and bought a basketball for exercise, and tales from the darkside season 1 dvd that swim is going to let himself watch when he is clean a week for a reward.

Leftöver Crack added 13 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

about suicidal thoughts and anti depressants, swim thinks if swim hasn't ended it by now, swim won't. swim realizes that while swim doesn't give a shit about himself, it's one thing to wreck swim's own life, but another thing to wreck others, and swim can't do that to the people in his life.

swim doesn't want to give the impression swim is sitting here with a knife on swim's wrist, but the thought crosses swim's mind a couple times a day when the depression is at it's worst (usually a week after detox, then those thoughts stop).

swim has been on anti deps...merely existing is the second worst feeling, after this. swim won't be on anti deps unless swim is dragged into the hospital and forced to take anti deps.

[ex-junkie]

swiy needs to stop being so hard on them self for a start. also keep reminding swiy, that once the withdrawals are gone, using is pointless. the withdrawals will come back. this is ultimately what swiy doesnt want.

also try not to dwell about pre opiate times. this will certainly do swiy's head in. swiy only needs to think about one day at a time from here until it doesnt become an issue for swiy any longer.

start talking to swiy when youre alone, and tell swiy they can do it. swiy can beat it. also try not to focus on all the times swiy failed. this is more negative thoughts recycling, instead think more about how swiy intends to change, and how swiy is going to go about doing it. this is more beneficial for swiy in the long run. trust.

if swiy catchs themself thinking/about to post negative things, then start again- go back and change what swiy is thinking/typing into something positive, hopeful and determined. these are the sorts of things that will help swiy the most.

[Leftöver Crack]

swim thanks swiy alot for bearing with swim. swim understands and appreciates swiy's point about being positive...swim will keep that in mind as it sounds very important.

swim wonders about swiy's or any other swiy's thoughts on keeping opiates when clean. meaning: does swiy think it's better to keep opiates on hand so that swiy knows swiy has them and can keep swiyself from taking them...or is it better to not have them on hand?

swim has always gotten rid of everything and cut off contacts (to the best of swim's ability...finding dealers or calling the doctors swim knows will give swim pills is always there) so that swim has no opiates while clean, but has heard of this idea used, and wonders if there's some validity to it.

[ex-junkie]

keeping opiates is a disastrous idea tbh. its easier to put the thoughts to rest, when you know theres absolutely nothing in the house.

getting rid of contacts, phone numbers, and generally avoiding areas where swiy goes to score is the best option.

dont fear those areas though, or they will become problems to visit later on. swim remembers driving past outskirts of particular areas, and almost having mild panic attacks, but she stopped herself and gently reminded herself she is strong enough to handle these things, and it worked.

[Leftöver Crack]

swim figured as much, agrees, and is why swim does not keep any on hand while clean.

seems like swiy has a certain level of willpower that giver her a head start, that swim pretty much lacks totally.

[ex-junkie]

swim is a strong willed bitch. swim thinks that swiy has this trait in them too. sometimes you just need to encourage it to come out a little more. if you can tempt it to come out of swiy, swiy wont look back. the hard part can be getting it to come out in the first place, everybody has it though. it took many years for swim to tempt it out and put it to good use.

its sort of just flipping the switch upstairs, and taking all that stubbornness and putting it to good use, instead of bad.

[Leftöver Crack]

swim feels so motivated after this discussion that he wants to go clean when swim wakes up tomorrow! (swim was planning on waiting till his pills ran out in 3-4 days at which point swim would need to call the doc for a refill, to stop.)

swim is thinking about things he did and enjoyed before opiates. swim recalls his burning life goal he gave up on when swim became an addict. swim is looking forward to being clean. swim is usually asleep 4 hours ago, but is reading threads still. swim remembers the first time he detoxed, and felt like he beat the devil and was the most awesome person ever. swim is crying and grateful that there are strangers that take time to help strangers

[ex-junkie]

lovely!

note the feeling of empowerment a little positivity can bring. that is a powerful force in itself. this is why the positive energy is so important to your recovery. swiy needs to evoke this force within himself, and use it like a magnet to attract the life swiy wants. swiy can draw good things to himself, just as in the past swiy has drawn bad things to himself.

the mind is very powerful, once you learn how to use it to your advantage, its smooth sailing ahead.

glad to be of help. swim has always wanted to help others like swiy.

[chillinwill]

SWIY can learn to not only live life without opiates, but to actually ENJOY it. Red Rock is coming up on a year clean from heroin and his life has improved so much. He never thought it would have gotten this good.

After Red Rock cleaned up, he really didn't feel like his old self until about 3 months being clean. It was at that time that he noticed a dramatic shift in his perspective and thinking and outlook on things.

As for the NA thing, if it helps SWIY, then by all means go. If SWIY has never been, then Red Rock highly encourages SWIY to give it a try as it is a good way to obtain recovery, especially in early recovery. Red Rock didn't follow the NA way but he thinks he was one of the few lucky ones that could do this. If SWIY has never been to an NA meeting, there is a good thread on here written by Dickon that describes NA and its principles.

As for using other substances in recovery, Red Rock recommends that SWIY at least give it a couple of months before using any other substance as it will give your mind to heal more. Than SWIY can reconsider if they want to smoke marijuana or drink occasionally or whatever they choose.

Whatever SWIY does, do not give in to the cravings and go back to opiates. This is a lifestyle of hell and it will get no better. Keep posting on here if it helps SWIY and let us know SWIY's progress.

[Dickon]

The NA information chillinwill mentions is written up is here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74861 . This is a fairly in-depth description of the meetings I've taken my cat to, here in the UK. There's a link on that post to a rather long "pros and cons" discussion of NA.

For some personal stories there are, among others:
Rokman Nash's : http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73242
AvidFan's : http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72929
Chillinwill's : http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73832
and my : http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69742 which continues here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71906 . I'd think it might be a good idea to glance through some of these, and see what people did at various stages.

I'm with ex-junky on the getting rid of opiates. my cat kept methadone for several days after he quit, but felt it was a great breakthrough when he handed it back to the chemist saying he wouldn't be needing it. It was a sign of commitment.

Strong will is a good thing up to a point, but there comes a point where you realise that there is no battle. There is nothing to use will against, as it were. Maybe this is advise for later, but if and when you do come to a point of surrender and collapse on a heap on the floor thinking you can't go on, that's not a bad thing. Breath, accept the situation, and if you want a positive cliche, there is always "surrender to win". At the beginning though it does seem more like a battle with the monkey. One of my favourite contributions to DF was starting the "Smack the Monkey hard" thread, which you might enjoy. It's here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69952 .This is a place to abuse that monkey on your back, and take back your power. I think it needs a bump from someone, even if you just want to say "fuck you monkey, I hate you".

I have written a how to guide for opiate detoxification, which might contain some useful information: It's here: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76991 .

This place is a gold-mine of information, but I doubt it's really information you need right now. So I thought I'd drop by to say that between and 5 and 6 months off everything I still have some level of exhaustion. I must remember that 3 months ago I could barely get up, and yesterday I was up at 7 to do zen meditation, dancing for 2 hours in the evening, up for a 7.15 tai chi session this morning, and out for a yoga class this evening. Doing stuff is great in one sense, but a really important lesson I've learnt is that inviting in stillness is really important too. When I was writing "Screaming" (the thread I linked to above, written as cat was going through a fairly icky withdrawal) I was really pissed off with others who were going on about the joys of exercise. I'd advised it, but was not really able to do it at the time. I pushed myself early on and got really ill (not good in w.d.), followed by weeks and months when I couldn't do anything. Eventually, about 3 months in I started exercising again. I now do quite a bit, but still haven't recovered all my energy. The lesson here is that things come at their own pace, and you will feel good again. It just might take a while, or it might not. Bear in mind cat was coming off a fair amount of methadone, doing a fairly quick reduction, and was/is nearly 40. 11 years ago cat had a lot more nervous energy and anxiety after a similar w.d., but today it's been the lethargy not any anxiety or long-term lack of sleep that's been tough.

I absolutely advise against marijuana, at least if you're in any way inclined to any anxiety/paranoia symptoms. I'd suggest giving your body a rest from all drugs and alcohol for a while whatever your ultimate intention. Some quit opiates only to start drinking heavily or become reliant on cannabis. This is not, in my view, the way to go. I very much doubt it would have much benefit, although this is just an opinion. People react differently to it.

Keep us posted with how things are going. I for one found regular posting on DF really helpful when cat was quitting, especially in the sleepless night hours. It's fun to have "screaming" to look back on. I was barking crazy. You probably will be too. Yet, I am proud of my dedication to the cause, and know that success begets success. Grind out those minutes, and they become hours. The hours become days, and the days become weeks. You'll not believe this when the w.d.s are full-on, but it you can it might be worth getting some clonidine or lofexidine. These are discussed in more detail on the how to guide.

All best wishes for this scary but fulfilling journey

Dickon

[ex-junkie]

dickon, swim just wanted to say that swiy is a highly intelligent man who continually speaks volumes of wisdom. massive props for being so honest, and taking the time for long, thoughtful replies across the forums.


<3

[Leftöver Crack]

thanks to chillinwill and dickon, more helpful insight.

swim is going to try not using marijuana; problem is, without opiates swim lays in bed at night and has a pain in his back that prevents him from sleeping. swim is 99% sure the pain is only in his head, and only exists as another reason/excuse to continue taking opiates, but nevertheless, just in your head or not, it's there. thus, being in swim's head, it should decrease as the nights go on because it doesn't actually exist.

swim thinks he will not smoke for the beginning, but won't rule out smoking if he hasn't slept for a few days in a row. as far as alcohol, swim finds any amount of alcohol no fun, doesn't use alcohol and and isn't worried about it.

not that swim isn't grateful for dickon's advice about the immediate detoxing, but swim isn't worried about the hardcore physical convulsing unbearable withdrawal; swim has detoxed many times and on 1-10 this detox this time will be a 3. swim is more concerned with the mental/depression/lack of wanting to do anything, which is the reason he relapses every time. the real test is going to be in about 2 weeks when swim is due for a doctor's refill on his oxy. swim has to push himself to not use the phone and call his doctor, cause at that point the pills are as good as taken already.

swim did already read dickon thread about after detox, and really liked it. i'll read the rest you listed.

swim can be more specific on his NA questions; swim has read the 12 steps, and has no problem with them, but wonders about getting "kicked out" of NA if he can't agree with one of the steps, specifically the one about putting your will/life in the hands of your Creator.

swim DOES indeed believe in his Creator, but does NOT agree he is free of the responsibility to not relapse, and instead that is up to his Creator. swim means c'mon...even being religious, that doesn't logically make sense for a second.

swim has found a meeting in his area and plans to go, but will he get kicked out when it gets to that step, and he says "that step is absurd"?

as far as swim's situation, swim's sudden excitement and sudden urge to cancel his original plan and go clean immediately was destroyed because last night, as the last thing he read before he went to bed, was beena's thread about continually relapsing. holy F.

the plan is still for swim to wake up in 3-4 days when he has no opiates left and start being clean. swim is positive he can get it STARTED, but as swim said, the entire goal is to not relapse in a week or 2, or a month or 2.

swim fully realizes an addict is an addict for the rest of their life, but that doesn't mean they're going to take a drug ever again.

swim has thought about a few more things he looks forward to, besides the overall getting back to who he really was; swim can't wait to get outside and start running around and shooting a basketball, and swim can't wait to not die and not feel constantly sick because of all the apap in his system.

[ex-junkie]

swiy should call his doctor and tell them not to prescribe any more oxy.

has swiy looked into a buprenorphine detox, or is swim planning on doing this cold turkey?

buprenorphine, chlonodine and promethazine (drowsy over the counter anti histamine), make for a very comfortable detox in comparison to cold turkey. swim thinks swiy should take the next few days to organize this before swiy runs out of meds!

swim should keep his chin up, he has shown great courage and resolve so far, and he is still young. up and at em boy.

[Leftöver Crack]

swim has been on subs/bups, only a day here and there to get swim to his next real opiate. not needed as swim is doing this cold turkey. swim is guaranteed to get past the first few days; the immediate 3-4 day WD isn't a concern.

it comes down to this: after 3-4 days, swim starts thinking, 24/7, that swim is depressed, and is unable to be happy opiate free, and thus must accept that swim is going to be actively addicted for the rest of his life.

swim can't stress enough how he will inevitably sit and watch tv, or see people in public, and say "how do these people live without opiates? swim can't be happy/content without opiates. it's impossible".

swim has the following ready for getting his body back up and running clean: basketball, tennis racket for exercise, every day. swim hasn't sports exercised in 2 years. multi vitamin, B6, and having a hard time finding this L-tyrosine, but going to keep looking for it today. bought 3 bags of hard candy...don't ask swim why, but without opiates swim needs to constantly be sucking on hard candy. bought a case of water, but swim drinks 3-4 bottles a day already anyways. also the DVD swim bought that he will watch after about a week clean as a "reward". (swim is dead broke so dropping $25 on a DVD isn't small beans. also the supplements cost money.)

swim has other ideas for what to do/where to go to keep occupied at any given time. swim has never planned a detox before like this. therefor he is most excited to see if he can be successful.

on another note, swim was layed off work in october. was to go back to work may 1. found out yesterday he doesn't have his job guaranteed anymore. swim's friend is bringing him an application for where friend works and says there's a 75% chance swim gets hired there. this job would be swim's best job yet! swim wouldn't be as broke as shit anymore, swim would have health benefits, etc.

if THAT goes through, swim is happy.

[chillinwill]

One thing that Red Rock has found that has helped him tremendously is the take it one day at a time concept. Although he doesn't believe in most of NA's beliefs and principles, this is one concept he has found that helps him a lot.

He will start to get to thinking like SWIY does and how the fuck is he going to stay opiate free the rest of his life. Sometimes, just when he thinks those thoughts, he wants to go use heroin then because he is still used to himself as a failure and will think that there is no way in hell he will stay opiate free the rest of his life.

However, he remembers that he just won't use today. He will worry about tomorrow tomorrow if and when the craving comes up. That's all it is is a craving (well a lifestyle change as well). If SWIY breaks it up though into small pieces, it doesn't seem like such a big task ahead of them. Just worry about staying clean today and not using only today.

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent advice. am a firm believer in the one day at a time method.

[oxynomo]

Swim has just ended a 7 year marriage to that oxy bitch.The divorce was brutally long and painful.She was ruining swim just as she does with most people she meets.Swiy has made a wise choice wanting to be free of her.Though it may seem like swiy doesn't want to leave her,swiy has to keep it in his head that he will be much better off without her.As for swim getting healthy again,another good move.Lots and lots of water to get her where she belongs[flushed].Protein shakes might want to be added to your list,as the first few days most likely will not eat too much.Once swim got his appetite back he had to have banana's,don't know why but just had to have them.On the exercise ,don't forget to have something to keep ones mind busy as sleep will not come easy.Some of the meds mentioned in previous posts may help for sleep.Must be careful with the clonidine as it is a blood pressure med.Swim knows what swiy is going to do will be a task that can be done.Swiy has to stay positive and focused on his main goal.Best wishes and luck.o

[ex-junkie]

aww. swim thinks cold turkey is a terrible experience to have to go through.

best of luck with it all the same.

stick around here. make a point of posting/hanging around for an hour if swiy ever thinks hes about to cave. swiy will find that after an hour or so, he can change his mind around. turn his thoughts around.

swim will be back often to check on swiy over the next couple of weeks, to encourage swiy, and to be here to listen to whatever it is that swiy needs to get off his chest at the time.

swim is excited. she has a good feeling about your recovery, and if swiy communicates on this forum then many other people to come can learn from swiy's experience.

in the act of helping swiy, swiy will be helping others in exactly the same boat.

[Dickon]

You won't be kicked out of an NA meeting, even if you disagree with all 12 of the steps! If you want to accommodate step 3, you could always use your true/authentic self as what you're handing over to, rather than your "addict" self, or 1001 other ways. I've written about this in one of those NA threads. But even if step 3 sounds like a crock of shit to you, it won't be a problem. A lot of people just go to NA meetings and don't really "work the steps" at all.

D.

[rokman nash]

Just thought my friend would chime in here and wish you well.Its a hard and noble thing to do(quitting opiates).

Good thoughts

[Sushi]

Alf and all my psychic pets (or pests sometimes) too wish SWIY strength and all the best. Never addicted to opiates swimself, but know their taste and know how difficult quitting and staying clean is. SWIY made a good decision, keep on struggling.

[Leftöver Crack]

swiy chillin sounds alot like how swim thinks when clean. swim will keep "one day at a time" in mind at all times as it makes sense. swim thanks everyone yet again for info and encouragement.

swim spent tonight reading NA literature and is confused. swim understands you can't be kicked out of NA. however, it isn't apparent wether it's for people who are clean, or who are using, or both.

swim had assumed it was for people who are clean, and planned on going to the local meeting later this week...at which time he will have stopped using. swim doesn't want to show up clean and find out he's not supposed to be there.

Leftöver Crack added 11 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

btw, swim just threw away the kratom he had left, so he doesn't have any kind of backup when what swim is on now runs out (kratom is the backup backup/last resort as it's by far the most useless thing swim has had).

just covering all of swim's angles.

Leftöver Crack added 168 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

one more thing, swim was sitting here thinking to hiself "why the fuck is swim waiting until he runs out to go clean?". swim feels he's prepared (swim would hope so, has been totally consumed, planning and preparing every second for the last 48 hours!) and tossed his remaining supply.

so swim now goes to sleep knowing, unlike every other time, this time swim wants to be clean.

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by Leftöver Crack

Leftöver Crack added 168 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

one more thing, swim was sitting here thinking to hiself "why the fuck is swim waiting until he runs out to go clean?". swim feels he's prepared (swim would hope so, has been totally consumed, planning and preparing every second for the last 48 hours!) and tossed his remaining supply.

so swim now goes to sleep knowing, unlike every other time, this time swim wants to be clean.

wow! swiy tossed his supply.

still wouldnt have a made a difference whether swiy started tomorrow or in a few days time really, but massive props for doing that. that took a lot of balls, and quite frankly most people would have waited until theyd run out!

swim has to pay rent, but will be about later if swiy wants to chat. swim can tell swiy about all the things swiy wants to do when he gets his life back.

sometimes people are at a loss to what exactly they will do after addiction, but as a wise man once told swim; dont think about what you want to do with your life as such, think about what you want to have achieved in your life before you die. usually the answers come up instaneously when you look at things from the opposite perspective.

BIG UPS TO YOU!!!!!11

<3

[Dickon]

Good luck. This is where the "fun" starts. NA is both for people who are clean and who want to get clean. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using". Seem like that's one thing you've definitely got.

All the best and stay strong

Dickon