Missing Receptors?

[cra$h]

Another drug, another failed trial. It's happend with DXM, mushrooms, and now 2c-i. With dxm, 2 bottles of robo, sober. for mushrooms, 1/16 will have swim's friend trippin like a mother fucker, and swim.....just relaxed, thinkin about life. as for 2c-i, nothing. 10mg railed, nothing. 20mg orally, nothing. swim's friend takes 20mg, and he can't hold a conversations. This leads swim to believe he's missing psychedelic receptors, not sure which ones, but it seems like they're not there. Salvia knocks the shit out of swim, but that's an opioid receptor, and isn't like mushrooms nerologically. Any thoughts?

[Ilsa]

is swiy on any meds, esp ssri type stuff?

[gmeziscool2354]

since this is in some for all...

i know a chick who can't really taste artificial sweeteners. shes like, why drink diet coke its just like coke flavored seltzer (club soda)? she was onced concerned with her weight so would put 8 (eight) packets of splenda in a 6 ounce of coffee. isn't that odd?

gmeziscool2354 added 0 Minutes and 26 Seconds later...

shit this was in euphoric mind

fail

[cra$h]

swim will have a completely clean system, not even tylenol or vitamines. There's nothing swim could think of that would stop a hallucination. I'm baffled, and pissed! The only thing that could really prove the missing receptors is if swim ever gets a hold of some LSD or something, and have someone else trip off the same strip and compare. If THAT doesn't work, looks like opiates are swim's best friend....

[Ilsa]

^^^ don't be to quick on the opiates...it could be that swiy's physiology has more to do with it....the receptors swiy is talking about are evolutionarily important in brain function and can't just be missing, or swiy wouldn't be typing this conversation. there may be a chance that swiy doesn't responf physiologically to the drug binding the receptor...maybe some physio investigation is warranted?

[Gradient]

cra$h,

Very interesting circumstances. All of the substances mentioned (except for DXM and salvia) exert their effects via the 5-HT2a receptor, as well as binding to related receptors like 5-HT2c. DXM elicits its effects primarily via NMDA receptor antagonism and sigma receptor agonist (disputed). It doesn't make theoretical sense that a problem with the effects of serotonergic (LSD, 2C-I) psychedelics would translate to a lack of sensitivity to the effects of dissociative analgesics (PCP, Ketamine, DXM). So your circumstances are certainly puzzling.

If one was deficient in the expression of 5-HT2a receptors, the only model I can think of that would approximate the behavioral repercussions are recovering heavy-HEAVY and regular MDMA-use patients. Such individuals would experience down-regulation of the 5-HT2a receptor due to the persistent presence of the MDMA agonist. You can do a quick search on google to find out what those symptoms are; these are likely the kinds of problems, though not exactly because MDMA has additional effects, that you might expect if you were deficient in the receptors that the effects of psychedelics are mediated by. Therefore, I'd be surprised if this was your problem. Ilsa is absolutely correct - you'd have much more fundamental problems to deal with than insensitivity to psychedelics.

Can you describe the conditions that your body was in during ingestion? I.E - had one been sick when insufflating the 2-CI? What kinds of food were in one's stomach upon oral ingestion of the fungus/DXM? pH becomes a pivotal issue when considering the absorption of any given psychedelic - they tend to be biologically fragile molecules, and subject to ionization at significantly low pH, like that found in a particularly acidic stomach.

Regardless, I'm interested to hear of future trials.

[SWIM Bulgakov]

Sounds unbelievable. Maybe they were all "placebos" and the friend's brain's too gullible?

[Sarko]

SWIM wonders if maybe you have too literal a mind. SWIM doesn't know your background, but sufferers with such disorders as Austism and Asperger's take things too literally in the world around them. SWIM doesn't know if the above are immune from the effects of psychedelics, but SWIM could certainly see why they might not be so susceptible.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting viewpoint, and useful pointer.

[bananaskin]

Originally Posted by Sarko

SWIM wonders if maybe you have too literal a mind. SWIM doesn't know your background, but sufferers with such disorders as Austism and Asperger's take things too literally in the world around them. SWIM doesn't know if the above are immune from the effects of psychedelics, but SWIM could certainly see why they might not be so susceptible.

This is a very interesting thread to my friend who has an autistic son.
He is only small but the time will come when he has his questions and the years of study she will have done will be very beneficial to them both.
This philosophy also extends beyond recreational use though into prescription medicines ... and the chemistry here is a great study tool for my friend

[SWIM Bulgakov]

^ Why?

Never mind how unscientific your theory maybe, I'd like to hear it.

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by SWIM Bulgakov

^ Why?

Never mind how unscientific your theory maybe, I'd like to hear it.

I'm not going to disagree that my theory is unscientific (to some extent), but sufferers of Autism and Asperger's do have real problems with taking things in the outside world too literally. They have problems with Theory of Mind and putting themselves into the shoes of others or abstract situations.

If they were on an hallucinogenic drug, then it might be possible that rather than experiencing the unusual perceptions the drugs cause, they may just sit there processing the incoming information as usual.

I couldn't pinpoint why, there are many genes identified that seem to produce the above disorders, but it is possible that one of the genetic (or whatever) problems causes a lack of the physical part of the brain being affected by hallucinogens.

If we were to find someone who was unaffected by hallucinogenic drugs, then it might help identify one of the genes (or problems in the brain) involved in causing Autism (if those with Autism were actually unaffected by hallucinogens).


I did do research in this area for a living so it is interesting to me. A lot of science is driven by rather subjective observations such as those above.

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent and intriguing point

[SWIM Bulgakov]

Puzzling idea indeed.

I am not autistic and when trying to imagine myself to be autistic and on drugs trying to process information I find it difficult to actually process information in the real world.

Such "insensitivity" to a high should be very specific to a drug though I think. An unscientific argument against your theory would be that even animals get high.

With the right dosage of the right drug one might even bring an intelligent animal to post on this forum. It would have to make up a name and a birth date and might have to lie it is 18 to join though.

I can't really put myself in the shoes of an autistic person and I don't take drugs so I'll have to consult SWIM.

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by SWIM Bulgakov

An unscientific argument against your theory would be that even animals get high.

With the right dosage of the right drug one might even bring an intelligent animal to post on this forum. It would have to make up a name and a birth date and might have to lie it is 18 to join though.

I can't really put myself in the shoes of an autistic person and I don't take drugs so I'll have to consult SWIM.

actually, since most mammalian receptor systems and neurochemistry are phylogenetically related, animals can indeed 'get high' and experience similar effects to an h. sapien. so that is, in fact, a scientific argument.

that said, the 5-ht-2a receptor is what's known as g-protein coupled receptor (GPCR); these types of receptors are comprised of several subunits: alpha, beta and gamma. in addition, there are several chemical cascades mediated by GPCR's, so any defect in the receptor itself or in downstream signalling (ie, neocortical pyramidal cells, cortical glutamate levels, to name a few specific examples) can cause the effect (or lack thereof iff something's amiss) described inthe OP. right dosage and right drug have little impact if there is an organic defect in the receptor itself, which can be as simple as a mutation in a single amino acid (remember the form fits function relationship?) or a problem with glutamate levels, or any number of things downstream of the receptor-ligand interaction.

i've attached the article describing these receptors in regards to hallucinogens, hope it is informative

we'll get it figured out, swi-cra$h

[mahoney]

Originally Posted by cra$h

for mushrooms, 1/16 will have swim's friend trippin like a mother fucker

The first 3 times swim took mushies he took 1,2 and 2.5grams. Each times swim felt different but while some of his friends were trippin he definetley wasn't. So thinking he must be ultra tolerant he bought a half ounce at a house party some time later planning to take 5 g's. However only 2 friends would take 'em...So they ate 5 grams between them leaving 10. Swim was only going to have 5 but after pressure from everyone and being overly confident from drink swim took em all. An hour later swim was saying 'man shrooms are for pussies'. Next swim was in a ball on the ground getting his head shaved and everyone seemed innately EVIL. They were taking the piss and really scaring swim. Swims friend put him in the boiler room to warm up(swim ran out into the snow after being told there was some1 coming to kill him) and his father walked in and saw swim... He was fairly shocked needless to say...

Sorry for waffling but swim must say shrooms take alot of experimentation but they are not to be missed. or underestimated.(Swim was 16 at the time). As for the robo swim took 1 bottle and was in a bad way...never tried RC's.

PS. The world is a less vibrant place now Jimmy's gone ain't it?

[shogun875]

the existence of receptors is related to exposure during infancy and childhood to certain neurotransmitter. This is especially true of sex-related hormones, which is why females with high levels of testosterone develop in a more masculine pattern, but it's also true with a lot of other ligands. Rick Straussman, in The Spirit Molecule, touched on a study which indicated less reactivity to certain halucinogenics in people who were born via c-section instead of natural birth. There's supposedly a flood of DMT in both the mother and the fetus during childbirth, and it's possible that this flood of DMT is required for the proper development of receptors for hallucinogens.

Was SWIY born via c-section, or natural birth? There hasnt been many scientific studies in this area but its still an interesting connection.

[yulamada]

SWIM was born c-section and has had ample experience with hallucinogens, both naturally occurring and synthesized. He loved his acid, mescaline, and boomers in his early 20's, but NEVER experienced a full-blown hallucination. To clarify, an idea never crawled out his head, turned into a piece of cheese, wrote a discertation on proper cabbage tuning, while riding the halibut that was previously his roomates laughter. Things would look electrified, with a rare flowing of the ceiling, or breathing of the walls seen out of the corner of his eye. Copious cheek spraining laughter was omnipresent. SWIMs taken a whole quarter of boomers (dried and fresh) on multiple occassions, and his LSD consumption was with reckless abandon for a while. Super-nasty-yuck cant-get-the-taste out-of-the-back-of-my-throat peyote did hardly anything to SWIM, while his friends threw up and had mystical experiences.

SWIM always found it odd that his friends would be running away from and trippin balls on the melting forest, while he did not. SWIM also never had a bad trip, despite nursing a constant depressive disorder since puberty. SWIM thought given his depresssion he'd be more inclined to a bad trip, but it just never happened.

$.02

[SWIM Bulgakov]

I read a bit of your article Ilsa and a bit on Autism and Asperger's and as of now I didn't find anything remotely supporting/confirming Sarko's theory. Intuitively and unscientifically I would say that Sarko is wrong.
But I am sure there are people on this forum who are a lot more qualified to answer that. Inviting one of them to this thread might shed more light on this truly fascinating subject.

[Ilsa]

i'll ask someone who'd likely know something...i just included that study to provide some form of research....i think it's very constructive of swiB to have done some research on ther own, thsi is what builds informative threads...please feel free to post any other info.