New RC found. Now what?

[Alfa]

Let's say SWIM has found a new RC(Which SWIM hasn't). Nobody has tasted it yet, but a few. Everyone is extremely positive. But what now? Releasing a new RC on the masses may lead to a massive serious of serious accidents and maybe death. The fact that SWIM enjoys this, does not mean that one in a thousand wouldn't drop dead.


What can be done to eliminate risks as best as possible?


Does anyone have protocols for this?Edited by: Alfa

[bandito]

Invest in some rats, and setup some trials.


Bandito.

[Iggypoop]

Nearly all the prescribed drugs on the market today have some deaths attributed to them, if something new comes out chances are a percentage are going to have a bad reaction.


The only thing that you can do is have the information about any deaths/contraindictions etc posted inplaces like this so that we can all make informed decisions.


Of course trials with rats might help with figuring out an LD50 for humans but thats about it. Their physiology is a lot different from ours as well so its never going to be accurate


There was some heart drug in the news in the last few months, its supposed to have killed thousands! (possibly hundreds of thousands)


If you want to make an omlette i guess you've got to break a few eggs... sad but true

[yajw]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Let's say SWIM has found a new RC(Which SWIM hasn't).
Nobody has tasted it yet, but a few. Everyone is extremely positive.
But what now? Releasing a new RC on the masses may lead to a massive
serious of serious accidents and maybe death.




What can be done to eliminate risks as best as possible?


Does anyone have protocols for this?

There are no protocols from saving people from doing stupid things.



Hopefully people searching for something new will try to seek out any
information available on it. The lack of data should be pointed out to
the researcher, while paying attention to the dosage levels that
were noted by the few human experiments. If there was a published
article, you could see if the procedure used pharmaceutical modeling
for the toxic probabilities.



Now there is a difference from researchers versus those looking for a
new high. You can't help the person that will take something that
someone just sells as this insane high. You can't stop those that are
looking to capitalize and just sell items in a standardized form/dose.
But the end result is out of your hands. All you can do is promote
gathering information and making an educated risk with the knowledge of
your own body and mind.



As with every compound released, there will be problems and injuries.
It will take years to figure out interactions with normal items, let
alone combinations with other recreationals.



By the time most of these items do dribble on down from the psychonauts
to the street, there is usually a fair amount of knowledge. Not
everyone peruses all these types of boards, journals, med-line, or can
go about aquiring items. Look how much difficulty everyone has by the
number of requests for sources on every board.



Didn't it take around 8 years for 2C-I to become a "problem" from when
you could find it at supply houses to the big sting operation last
years?



I would like to trust people to not sell items as the next big thing,
but there are those that will, and that will be the downfall as folks
gobble them without finding out more than what the supplier told them.
Oh, and the number of irresponsible people who don't use scales.

[HippieD9]

I think the person involved would just have to make the decision. It seems to be more of a moral issue than simply about the effects of the drug itself. On one hand you have the possibility for great happiness for the responsable user. On the other hand you have the possibility for great harm from an irresponsable one. The question then becomes which do you believe would be using this. Most of the less intelligent drug users I've met wouldn't want to touch something they have no idea about. I think the problem is once the drug gets well known, then those people start coming out of the woodwork. It's all about what you think would bring the greatest amount of happiness to the greatest amount of people, do you think it would do more harm than good?





Peace,


D.

[Softrat]

Even over the counter drugs have accidental deaths associated with them every year.


If you choose to play around with unknown chemicals it's your responsibility. If you don't want to take those risks then wait a while for the reports to come in.

[Peyote]

It doesn't really matter If its new or old, you'll always have people
who will be stupid enough to take high risks. You can't stop them...

[nanobrain]

datapoints are always useful, but is there a hurry to establish the human LD50?

unless you have total control over access to the compound, restricting it from the internet-enabled masses is not feasible. if the former is indeed the case, then the ethical issues are up to you.

in the short term, to minimise the potential harm, we need to aquire and share information - more data, field reports, outliers even - and this forum is certainly suited.

[ChemicallyBound]

release it in the scientific literature first , then only eggheads will pick up on it at first and it'll slowly be assimilated into the masses with proper (hopefully) guidance.


ex., look what Nichols is doing......


is there acas number on that ?Edited by: ChemicallyBound

[Solidly-here]

If it's psychedelic ... it's my friend


One thing about this world. There are a wide variety of chemicals which have psychedelic effects: LSD (and his friends, including magic mushrooms, cactus buttons), Marijuana, MDMA, PCP ...


Most people (including me) are happy enough to have a special chemical or 2 which serve our need to look at life further than usual. So, in my case, 4-HO-DiPT and marijuana are my tickets to the Universe.


If I run out of my favorite RC, then I will be prodded to test another one of the ones I bought back in the good-old-days, when RC sales were easier (e.g., AMT). This is how I came to RCs in the first place (my lack of finding a supply of LSD).


As a mindful fellow, as I began my journey to test one of the RCs, I hopped on the Net, and went to Erowid. I spent numerous hours reading over reports on the main RCs. Based upon my research, I decided to try one of the kinder RCs (one of them had to be first).


If Swim-powder came out, I would not be one of the first mavericks to test it. I will take the conservative approach (even though I'm not a republican), and wait until the psychonauts have thoroughtly tested it. Bless these helpful people.


As for protocols for "testing" a new RC, the Internet provides the communication medium to


(1) Gather a group of psychonauts together, who are interested in test-flying this new mind-opener.


(2) Allow all of the participants to offer feedback to all of the other participants (how did it go? was is safe? did you die after taking it? was it fun?).


In essence, this is what the FDA requires for a new drug to be approved: Get some observers (Dr. so-and-so, and his friends). Get some of the drug. Hire some guinea pigs (someone who would benefit from the drug, IF it actually works as thought). Feed it to the guinea pigs. See if anyone dies. IF NO ONE ... then phase 2.


Phase 2: It probably will not kill anyone, so now we get new guinea pigs. Feed them. Does the drug work as hoped?


No matter how much some doctor wants to dress-up his testing procedures, life is a crap-shoot (it either works, or it doesn't. It either fixes what it's supposed to, or it fixes what it isn't supposed to. People die, or they live).


If Swim is alive to boast about his new RC, he and his friends have performed at least some of the Phase 1 testing (no one has YET died, no close-calls), and some of Phase 2 (this stuff WORKS well).


So, now Swim makes his call for further testing: Hey guys! Life is short. Try Swim-powder (to see how short). If you are the first one to die from it, we GUARANTEE you top billing on my Swim-guinea-pig.com Website. If you live, this new RC will zest up your spiritual life (here, read all of the great stories listed, from happy consumers of Swim-powder).

[Alfa]

Here's the thing: A member has had a dream on a GHB related compound. It being a GABA effecting drug may have oversedating risks, but could also be the solution to the GBL frauds on the net. With most RC's there is at least some point of reference: Shulgin's books, Nichols research or other info. Here there is none, except that a few have enjoyed this.

[paradies]

I think the best thing is to do what you said has happened. Have SWIM invite a few folks over and experiment...as did Shulgin. Do trials with folks...get feedback...soon enough SWIM will know what the range of doses are. It's the only way to find out.

[Solidly-here]

A new Gold Mine in the Universe.


It is wonderful when a new RC comes into being (I have lived through several such awakenings). This happens when someone has thought about ONE Fire-Filled molecule, and teases it (in his mind, on paper, with models ... wherever the inspiration comes from). Now he has some Likely suspects for a New molecule; soon, a little chemical manipulation occurs; then, inspection (it looks good to me).


This ideafollows in the footsteps of many other searchers, including Shulgin himself (who has been aVERY lucky guesser of Likely suspects).


So, this year it is Swim ... a pioneer, inventing new, possible ways to refine the effects of the first, wonderful drug. I admire these visionaries of research. Thank you, Swim! Keep up your good work.


Well, today we have heard of the great initial results. Soon, more info will fill our Forum. One day (if all goes as it should), people all around the world will be opening their minds and hearts, thanks to this man's initiative, andhis labor of love.


Wow! I wish I was a Chemist, so I could play with molecules. But, I'm glad for those guys. I my way, I share in their experiments: I hear . . .I cheer.


Of course, this may just be a flash-in-the-pan. This is OK, too.Each trial (and its all-important research data) brings us closer-and-closer to the Ultimate Gift: A new goodie, to try if I (or the rest of the world) is looking for its benefits.


Thanks, Alfa, for the uplifting news. I look forward to a future String, documenting the cutting-edge trials by some of our more ambitious Post-ers.

[allyourbase]

could it be Na-4hv youre talking about?

[blackwolf]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

could it be Na-4hv youre talking about?

I doubt its that......anyways thats nothing new, thats been around since
early 2000.

And to alfa.......

I highly doubt that even if swim doesn't feel he should post this to the
masses, It is only a matter of time before some else figures it out and
succeeds in the synth. The reason being I am almost 100% sure that this
new chemical has already been thought of by a handful of individuals, if
not already dreamed (even if it was partially on accident), it was even
brought up in a dea_report. If this is what I believe it is , then I am excited
to hear the reports from experiences.
So basically..... Congrats to swim for his accomplishment, and forward
thinking. In my eyes the GABA molecule might hold some very interesting
new finds...as well as GHB receptor agonists. If I am wrong about the "new
" one then even better...either way I am excited and hope to hear some
detailed reports psychoactivity.Edited by: blackwolf

[Alfa]

You are right on. Amenselah has offered to provide this trough a new website and will giveenough hints for the smart bees with an inquiring mind to figure out how to do the synthesis. Edited by: Alfa

[genaro]

what is the complete chemical name for this stuff (Na-4hv) ?


I'm curious to hear some more info about it...

[Nagognog2]

Phenethylamine are NOT amphetamines. A PEA is, simply stated, R-CH2CH2NH2 where R represents a benzene ring in it's simplest form: eg - Phenethylamine. The benzene ring being refered to as phenyl when substituted in this way.


An amphetamine, in it's simplest form, is phenyl-iso-propylamine or R-CH2CHNH2CH3. As best as I can do without the proper software. In other words it has 3 carbons. Whereas the ethylamine group has 2 carbons. They are quite different.

[blackwolf]

[QUOTE=genaro] what the fuck is Na-4hv ????!!!!! I wanna know ![/
QUOTE]
4-methyl-GHB or sodium-gamma-hydroxyvalerate or GHV

[unico_walker]

I doubt its GVL/GHV, been around for a long time there were even commercial sleep aids from health food stores using it.

There is no danger of OD either as most reports talk about the same plateau effect from phenibut.



So whatever this is its new and I'm excited as hell, may amen get very rich and get out of the game before webslinger2

[Amenselah]

this is*part of my research..


if u know chemistry u will figure it*out..enjoy it.


and if u do please don't post it*in the open boards or it will not last long..


samples are available for free for a few individuals ..but only if Alfa approve..


*


Using alkaline hydrolysis to test for an amide If you add sodium hydroxide solution to an unknown organic compound, and it gives off ammonia on heating (but not immediately in the cold), then it is an amide. You can recognize the ammonia by smell and because it turns red litmus paper blue. The possible confusion using this test is with ammonium salts. Ammonium salts also produce ammonia with sodium hydroxide solution, but in this case there is always enough ammonia produced in the cold for the smell to be immediately obvious.


The pyrrolidinone would be expected to have a reactivity similar to that of an N,N-disubstituted amide. 2-pyrrolidinone is described in Merck as having "good chemical stability" and I would guess that the N-methyl constituent would stabilize it further.


Reaction of 2-pyrrolidinone with base might be expected to produce 4-amino-butyric acid (or its sodium salt if NaOH used).


The pyrrolidinone would be expected to have a reactivity similar to >that of an N,N-disubstituted amide. 2-pyrrolidinone is described in >Merck as having "good chemical stability" and I would guess that the >N-methyl constituent would stabilize it further. Yes, it's used as a high temperature polar aprotic solvent. *Solvent properties are much like DMF but it can be used at up to 200°C in some cases.
<DIV =qt id=qhide_73504 style="DISPLAY: block">


>Reaction of 2-pyrrolidinone with base might be expected to produce >4-amino-butyric acid (or its sodium salt if NaOH used).


*


N-methyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid. Yes, however this reaction will require very forcing conditions, as amide hydrolysis is much slower than ester hydrolysis. *You will need at least two equivalents of NaOH and you will need to reflux for at least an hour, probably more. *Theoretically, the reaction will work with just over 1 equivalent of NaOH, but it will become extremely slow near the end if you try this. </div>


*Edited by: nanobrain

[Amenselah]

as u can see it is done in the same way as the lactone..but is a little more involved..


no more hints...

[Amenselah]

the report in the DEAsite shows how close they monitor the NEt..the first underground low level reaserch was done in the HIVe and Rodhium...





and it also shows how fucking dumb they are...

[Amenselah]

Br J Pharmacol. 1977 Apr;59(4):551-60.
Related Articles

Effects of N-methylamino acids and convulsants on spontaneous action potentials in guinea-pig cerebellar slices.

Okamoto K, Quastel JH.

1. N-methyl-gamma-aminobutyrate (N-methylGABA), N-methylglycine, N-methyltaurine and N-methylbeta-alanine diminished the frequency of spontaneous spike discharges in guinea-pig cerebellar slices. Usually a weak excitatory effect preceded the inhibition. 2. The inhibitory effects of N-methylGABA and N-methylbeta-alanine were competitively antagonized by both picrotoxin and strychnine. 3. The inhibitory action of N-methyltaurine was competitively suppressed by strychnine and by low concentrations of picrotoxin. 4. The inhibitory action of N-methylglycine was suppressed by strychnine but not by picrotoxin. The suppression was competitive at low concentrations of strychnine. 5. N-methylDL-glutamate brought about a strong inhibition followed by a strong excitation of the neurones. The inhibitory effects were competitively suppressed by both picrotoxin and strychnine. Neither convulsant affected the excitation. 6. Whereas L- or D-glutamate caused only excitation in the majority of cells examined, a small proportion of the cells exhibited inhibition preceding the excitation by L- or D-glutamate. Such inhibitory effects were suppressed by picrotoxin but not by strychnine. 7. Kinetic analyses of the dose-response curves for the N-methylamino acid in the presence or absence of the convulsant indicated that the number of molecules of the amino acid combining with the receptor site to produce a response was 3 for N-methylGABA, 2 for N-methylglycine, 3 for N-methyltaurine, 3 for N-methylbeta-alanine. The corresponding value was 1 for N-methylDL-glutamate (inhibition). The number of molecules of convulsant combining with the receptor site was calculated to be 2 for picrotoxin with N-methylGABA, N-methylbeta-alanine and N-methylDL-glutamate and 1 for strychnine with all N-methylamino acids examined.

PMID: 870120 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Nicaine]

Originally Posted by Peyote

It doesn't really matter If its new or old, you'll always have people
who will be stupid enough to take high risks. You can't stop them...

Depends how you look at it... either stupid, or daring. Plenty of people like climbing mountains without a rope & skiing dangerous slopes, what's the basic diff. with a risky chemical? Biochemical thrill ride, either way.

P.S. sorry for going a bit off topic, now back to reg. scheduled programming. To Alfa -- I can't think of anything except limit the initial "release" to a group of people willing to take the risk before dropping it on the general public. Similar to the way the pharmaceutical companies do it, just a lot more casual.Edited by: Nicaine