Health - Extremely bad trips- information and advise for sitters.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Extremely bad trips.

What follows is based on swim's experience of two extremely bad trips which swim was the sitter for. These were of a level in total contrast to other “normal” bad trips which swim has seen and even experienced himself. The drug in question is LSD (200-400mics dosage, no other substances). This information is intended to inform future trip sitters. This is a work in progress which requires validation from more experiences so please share them if you have any (experiences from the perspective of a sitter preferred but not required). Remember though, this is about extremely bad trips only, such as the tripper having a psychotic episode. One of these bad trips resulted in short-term psychosis and then PTSD, for example (in a normal sane person). The other miraculously snapped out of it and had no recollection of it whatsoever, even though it lasted 5 hours, and so wasn’t traumatised.

It should be noted that bad trips of such magnitude are extremely rare and you (the future trip sitter) will be very unlikely to encounter and have to deal with such a bad trip. Nonetheless, much of the information provided is relevant to less bad trips also and it never hurts to get more knowledge. Actually, if swiy suspects that learning just how bad trips can get will be bad food for thought when swiy is next tripping, it might indeed hurt to get more knowledge...

General pointers:
-The mind can only begin to relax once the body has relaxed
-If they appear to shrink away from physical contact or bat you away if you touch them, always back off. This applies unless you feel it is an emergency and you have to stop them harming themselves.
-Never crowd round them, never raise your voice: always speak with an extremely calming tone. Never shake them and never yell “calm down!” even if they start going berserk.
-If they are lying down, make sure it is on their side in case they vomit.

Signs that a bad trip is becoming a very bad trip:

-extreme short term memory loss. Eg, if you tell them they are having a bad trip in response to them asking "why am I feeling like this?" then they will ask exactly the same question 30 seconds later.
-confusion
-acting in uncharacteristic ways

Signs that someone is in an extremely bad trip:

-They start crying or whimpering
-They have their eyes closed
-They are unresponsive to any verbal and/or physical communication
-They are sitting or lying in a clenched position and have been doing so for a while. Clenched means that they are tensing a muscle group, such as crossing their legs and holding them to their chest with their arms.
-They sometimes murmur incoherent phrases
-If their eyes are open, they seem blank and they don’t seem to be aware of their surroundings
-they appear to be in one of the phases listed below
-They take their clothes off

Instances of ... disrobing ... were described -S Cohen, Lysergic Acid Diethylamide: effects and complications p 32

Note that while these can be characteristic of a bad trip, just because a tripper is exhibiting one or more of these signs does not mean that they are in a very bad trip.

If they are responsive to verbal communication then that is a good sign. Talk to them, but be careful what you ask. Asking them their name can confuse them- Once I asked a person their name and date of birth over and over to try and keep them talking because they would not open their eyes and they started to think they had been in a car crash, were being questioned by a paramedic, and that they had killed people…

If they are unresponsive to verbal communication, they are very far gone and very possibly they will get a lot worse. Unresponsive means that either they don’t show any sign that they know where they are, what they are, or what is happening.

Different phases:
When on a very bad trip, the tripper may go through different “phrases” which can be very different. They are phases, not stages, because all bad trips are different and do not really follow a definable chronology.

"Looping" phase:
When in an extremely bad trip, people may perform a physical movement or action that they then repeat with increasing violence/intensity. The physical effort involved in each loop increases, and each movement is a more strenuous, more intense version of the prior movement. This continues until the entire body is strained to its maximum, and they collapse.

This is better described by an example: A very scary version of this is when they start yelling. It starts with a moderately loud growling noise accompanied by a tensing of the arm muscles, it sounds quite like a motorcycle revving. Then, they pause for breath and relax their muscles and then they begin the second loop in which they growl louder and tense their muscles even more. After a few loops, they jump to their feat clenching their arms in front of them, roaring as hard as they can. After this peak, they instantly forget how to stand, and fall over again. Make sure you catch them and lower them down safely. Another horrific one to watch is when they get stuck on a loop of breathing through their nose with ever increasing violence. At the peak of this, they are forcing the air in and then out of their nose with incredible force, throwing their shoulders and head back and forth like a piston creating such a loud noise it seems likely their sinuses will rupture, although that did not happen. Do not try to hold or cover their nose, as they will probably just rupture their eardrums instead.

Once they have finished one loop and collapsed back on the floor, they will instantly pick up on whatever physical movement they happen to make next, and turn it into a loop. Dangerous loops for example, are things like smashing their teeth together with ever increasing force. If you see them do this, force a towel in their mouth. They are likely to carry on and not notice at all, but their teeth will be saved.

It should be noted that they will not have any recollection of performing these “loops”. (in swim's experiences)

In situations like this, getting them to calm and rest their physical body is needed if they are to get out of the looping stage. They will not be conscious so you will have to physically move them into a relaxed position. Hopefully, after being relaxed for a while, they will stop looping. Later on, they may give a sign that they are going to start looping such as beginning a loop movement. Swim found that saying "no, don't do that" in a very calm relaxed tone stopped them re-entering the looping phase every time.

When they are in this stage, they will be totlly oblivious to the external world, and all you can really do is stop them harming themselves, and try to keep them comfortable. There may be times when they come out of it a bit and try to communicate saying things like "how do I get out of it?"- tell them to relax their body and think about nice things. They will not be able to stand or sit up, so put some cushions under them. The looping stage does not last for very long- 45 mins at most- (more experience reports needed to validate this) but a tripper can re-enter it again.

In addition to physical loops, mental looping is described by many and seem to be more common than physical looping. I have condensed an experience report I found on the internet which described this:

Talking Someone Down from a Thought Loop

We were watching some trippy graphics on a screen, and they looked 3d to me and my two mates, but my girlfriend said that they were splilling out onto the floor... I should have noticed at this point, that she was tripping more than us, but I was tripping too, and thought nothing of it.

After about 1hr, we put on some music, and my two friends went to our grow room to trip off the plants (highly reccommended, by the way). My girl and I were downstairs talking about the universe and wormholes, and I put forward the thought that we might be caught in a time-loop, and everything was repeating itself... after a while this became true, and our conversation seemed to be going in circles (I thought this was hilarious, and remembered we had taken the acid, so it was ok). I left the room briefly to call down my friends, as they were missing some great music. When I came back into the living room (about 2 hours in...) my girlfriend started the same conversation we had been having before I left, but she seemed to be more adamant about it, seemed to believe it. I thought she was just playing with our heads, but as time went on, she started getting worked up about the things that we had been talking about (eating oranges, smoking spliffs, and being stuck in the centre of the universe, and how we had to join hands to break out!). I kept reassuring her that what she was saying was not happening. She would then say 'Oh, yeah yeah yeah. OOOOOKKKKK. So who is smoking the spliff?'

It was as if the last few sentences we had said to each other had gotten stuck in her brain, and all she could say or think about was these things.

I tried to roll up a joint, thinking that this would calm her, but she started to grab at me and the other people, trying to get us to join hands and 'break the loop'.
Now I was worried. Nothing I could say would get through to the real her... It seemed like she had gone to sleep, and left a recording of herself in charge of her body.
I decided that a change of environment may help, so I got her to my bedroom (practically had to drag her out of the living room) and tried to talk her down.
Unfortunately, at this point, she got quite worked up, and started screaming at me, for our friends, and hitting out at people. This was killing me. The love of my life was thrashing around on the floor, and I had to put my hand over her mouth (making sure she could breath through her nose) to stifle the screaming.

About 4 hrs in, I finally was able communicate with her. She would say one of her 'loop thoughts', and I would try and reassure her by saying an appropriate response. For example, she would say 'Oh God, where is C and V?' And I would say 'Oh look, here they come. They are here'. I had to convince her that what she wanted to happen, was happening.

It became clearer to me that she was still in there by looking at her eyes. When she was in her own world, her pupils were so large, nearly all black. But every so often, when I got through to her, they would close to a point, and I could tell she could see me, then she would lose it, and the pupils would dilate again. The only way I could get her actual conciousness to surface, was to trick her mind. She kept on with the 'loop thoughts', but every so often I would throw in a new response, referring to our real lives. for example, I at one point I asked her what she thought of the music at the club the other night, and she replied 'Oh, it was quite good', and I said 'I thought it was shit', and then she would go back into the loop.

She kept scratching at my arms, and putting her hands in my mouth (she said afterwards, that this was to try and communicate with me by 'putting her thoughts into my mouth!')

About eight hours in, she began to calm down, although she was still thinking in loops occasionally. When she did come back, she felt so bad, she was convinced that she was going to die, for about 2 hours. I knew that this was not going to be the case, but I had to keep on reassuring her, because she would believe me for a second, and then think that she was going to die again. After about 11 hours after taking the acid, she was down (but still mildy tripping visually). she had no idea about what had happened, and we both cried and comforted each other for many hours. From her point of view, she had resigned to dying, there in my bedroom, and this had had a huge emotional impact on her. From my point of view, I had watched the one I love most in the world, nearly dying (mentally), and since I was tripping, this had had a huge impact on my psyche. All the fucked-up thoughts will stay with me forever.

I am writing this, in the hope that other trippers will read it, and if they are with someone that gets stuck in a bad trip in the form of a though 'loop', will know how to talk them down. Reassure them, that whatever their delusions are, they are happening (if good, safe ones), or not happening (if they are bad). My girls thoughts were mainly about oranges (as we had been eating them at the start of the trip). She would shout 'we must eat the orange... who is eating the orange?' and I would say 'Its OK sweetheart, I am eating the orange now (chomp chomp, munch munch).' She would then sigh in relief, before coming out with another thought, or maybe the same one again.

I just kept talking to her, trying to say things to 'trick' her mind back to reality, refer to events in life, outside of the trip. I looked at her eyes to see when the mind had surfaced, and try to get through to it before it went back down under.
Above all, I gave love and hugs to her, because she was in a bad place, and only I could help her back out.

The advise given is debatable, especially about the part where 'tricking' the trippers mind is recommended. It seems a danger that important trust might be lost if the tripper believes they are being tricked by the sitter. If it alleviated anxiety, however, then perhaps it was a good strategy. As I said before, it is debatable and should be debated. The state of consciousness described is clearly extremely fragile.

Seizure phase:
People on a very bad trip may start shaking their body, with their eyes rolling back into their head. DO NOT crowd around them yelling “whats wrong?!” and shaking them. Try to remain calm and support their head, saying calming things.

Catatonic phase:
When they sit or lie down with their eyes open or closed and don’t really move or say anything, often in a clenched position. Put a blanket over them and hold their hand if they don’t object. If they have their eyes closed and are in a clenched position and appear to be getting anxious then gently lift their eyelids for them and say “hi, X, it’s me Z”. If this makes them more anxious, then you can either choose to carry on holding them open and try to soothe them, or you can close them again and try to soothe them- (more experience reports are required for this advise). They may ask for water. When asked things like “how are you feeling?” they might reply with things like “you should just be yourself…” Try not to laugh at them even if you are in need of some humor as it can confuse them although they will probably simply not register your response.

S Cohen describes this as a defencive mechanism against the painful emotions encountered in a bad trip:

Those subjects whose major defensive response is somatization have been able to fight off the psychic effects of the drug at the cost of suffering a variety of aches and pains for six hours. Osmond warns of the occasional appearance of a severe catatonic state. We have reported one which was impressive to observe -S Cohen, Lysergic Acid Diethylamide: effects and complications p 32

Traumatised phase:
Consists of sitting or lying down and just crying and being really upset, usually straining arm muscles, often pausing for a second in total confusion to look around, and then crying again. This can last for hours. They will likely be semi aware of surroundings in the sense that they will be able to "see" the room they are in and the people they are with, but they will not really take in the information properly, and will be very confused, upset and worried. For example, if you offer them water, they might recognise it but will not likely take it. In this state, it is best to help them calm down by looking cheerful if they look around them, and saying calming soothing things.

Coming out of it phase:
They seem to be getting better and can get up, move around and talk almost normally. If they are completely normal, then great, they have “snapped” out of it- which is very possible, even snapping out of violent looping back to total normality is possible. If, however, they seem a bit weird and confused then it is VERY important that you keep them company and talk about really simple things, perhaps put on some calming music. Signs of confusion include not seeming to remember much if any of the experience, mixing up words and meanings, extreme short term memory loss, repeatedly saying they want something but they don’t know what, such as saying “come on guys!” “what do you want?” “I don’t know…” DO NOT suggest that they try to get some sleep. They may seem fine and even happy and will probably laugh at jokes but if they show signs of general confusion then there is still real danger that they may fall back into the catatonic or even the looping phase, EVEN if they are nearing the 12 hour mark. Bad trips of this magnitude can easily reach the 18 hour mark. They need to stay awake and happy until the effects have fully worn off AND they are EXTREMELY tired before going to sleep.

A valuable point is illustrated by Merlis' three patients who were left alone after the interview period was completed. The drug effects were declining and it was assumed that they were recovering uneventfully. Instead, they became increasingly tense and confused and required further therapeutic support. This exemplifies the importance of constant attendance even during the waning phase of the psychotomimetic experience. - S Cohen, Lysergic Acid Diethylamide: effects and complications p 32-33

Violent, aggressive, self-destructive behavior This is not based on swim’s experience, but is based on a compilation of reports and articles he has read.

From an experience report I came across on the internet:

According to friends, any time someone let go on my arm , I would grab anything I could and pull it to my mouth to bite it. If I couldn't grab anything I would bite my fingers, and it was no play bite. If no one pulled my hands out of my mouth, I would have no doubt bitten all of my fingers off.

Some quotes from Drugs-Forum:

Originally Posted by VitaminK22

the guy was standing there with a knife screaming he was going to stab everyone

Originally Posted by Charolastra

He was running around screaming like a crazy person, trying to kill himself, running into cars, screaming out gibberish, etc. He ended up taking all of his clothes off and wanted to do really disturbing things to himself, like sticking his head through 2 sharp metal bars.

Originally Posted by Charolastra

He got to the point where he got really really violent towards me and to himself. The cops and ambulance showed up and he resisted so they had to cuff him.

Although extremely rare, such reports are always seen as very significant and therefore there are a large number of reports of a similar theme to these quotes. As the first quote demonstrates, constant vigilance is required to prevent self-harm as a person can hurt themselves in the blink of an eye. If possible, a person should be taken to a room/place which does not offer much opportunity for harm as soon as the bad trip initiates. Physical restraint may indeed be necessary for extremely hostile people.

A note on physical restraint:
This may be required if they are thrashing around near something very hard or sharp, or if they are displaying hostile or self-destructive behavior. Remember, physically retraining someone on a bad trip is likely to make them worse and holding someone in the wrong way can easily result in a dislocated shoulder or something similar. If you feel you are not physically strong enough to restrain the tripper, call for help. Also, try to keep contact time and force to a minimum. For example, steer someone gently but forcibly away from danger, rather than grabbing them and trying to hold them on the floor. Of course, only you can really judge what is necessary.

Originally Posted by Third/Eye

If you are to hold any part of their body it should be their head. Put a pillow under their head and support it, as you only have 2 hands. A broken or dislocated arm is much more preferred over a damaged brain. Turn them on their side so they don't choke on their tongue. You probably shouldn't move them at all, unless you are unable to move some things away from them. Like, a wall.

The decision to administer Benzodiazepines:
Benzodiazepines will diminish anxiety and sedate people on very bad trips. They are the drugs most likely to be given to a bad tripper taken to hospital. Obviously, these drugs can not be forced in the mouths of people who are really freaking out as they will just choke, but in swim’s experience, however, there are brief “interludes” in very bad trips when people “come out of it” for a few seconds, usually to say “why is this happening to me?!” or something. Those are the occasions where you could offer them a benzodiazepine, sedative, or anything you think might help (research drug effects and interactions beforehand).

Dosage for extremely bad trips (assuming no other depressant type drugs have been taken):
Diazepam (Vallium): 20-30mg
Alprazolam (Xanax): 2-3mg

Some people argue that forcibly interrupting bad trips can have a negative psychological impact and that therefore people should be left to work their way out of it and the experience will be ultimately rewarding. I am not going to presume to have the answers, but I will note that from swim's experience that extremely bad trips are better ended sooner rather than later. In swim's experience, an extremely bad trip can go on for 18 hours+ and can be the most horrible experience of a persons life. Swim's friend also lost several months of their life to short-term psychosis which was also awful, and nothing was gained from the experience. I believe that if the trip had been halted earlier- when he was not actually “conscious”- still in the looping phase- then he would not have remembered any of it or at least remembered less of it and therefore been less traumatized. The other experience swim had of an extremely bad trip involved the tripper suddenly snapping out of the trip having been in the looping phase just minutes before and he remembered nothing of it and so was totally normal despite the incredible intensity of his bad trip. Judging from swim's experiences, if someone is in the looping phase it is better to try and get them to take a Benzodiazepine. If they are in a catatonic or traumatized stage then it is less clear if they would benefit; but swim believes they will. The choice is yours.

Originally Posted by Durd1e

Just a quick note on the use of benzos - this should be avoided until you are sure it is a very bad trip as (in the case of swim and the others that he knows) it reduces the ability to differentiate between hallucination and reality and does not give any mood lift. This can lead to a long uncomfortable 'mashed' trip which removes any chance of salcaging and enjoying it. I have to agree though that it is probably necessary for very very bad trips to prevent harm to the tripper or those around him/her.

The decision to call an ambulance:
The consensus seems to be that hospitalisation is only necessary if the person has specific medical problems which could be exacerbated by their state, or if the drugs used and therefore drug interactions/dangers are not known.

Instant transfer of the individual to a psychiatric facility in the middle of the LSD experience is not only unnecessary, but represents a dangerous and harmful practice. It disregards the fact that the LSD state is self-limiting; in most instances, a dramatic negative experience if properly handled will result in a beneficial resolution and the subject will not need any further treatment. The "emergency transfer" to a psychiatric facility, particularly if it involves an ambulance, creates an atmosphere of danger and urgency that contributes considerable additional trauma for a person who is already extremely sensitized by the psychedelic state and the painful emotional crisis. The same is true of the admission procedure in the psychiatric facility and the atmosphere of the locked ward which is the final destination of many psychedelic casualties. *Crisis Intervention in Situations Related to Unsupervised Use of Psychedelics; Stanislav Grof, M.D.

Originally Posted by Frond

Calling an ambulance should be done only if the subject is in medical danger. If the subject is wild and attempting to hurt themselves, they should be restrained. Sending authorities into the picture has an extremely high risk of legal trouble for everyone involved. A scary night of babysitting someone off their rocker is certainly nothing to laugh at, but it is always preferable to years in jail and a permanent criminal record. Not to mention the gigantic, monstrous hospital bill that someone is going to have to pay. Also, a hospital is rarely knowledgeable when it comes do dealing with psychedelic drugs in the first place.

This only applies when one knows for certain what drugs the subject is on. When that situation is unknown and a potentially dangerous drug interaction is taking place, then getting medical personnel involved is a better idea. Still, it should only be done when there is a clear medical emergency and not just someone freaking out in hyperspace. So, it is a good idea to monitor someone's vital signs throughout the experience.

=>Note: this report contains advise on serious matters which therefore needs to be validated by other people's experience before it should be taken seriously enough to be put into practice.

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[Third/Eye]

Signs that someone is in an extremely bad trip:

-They start crying or whimpering
-They have their eyes closed
-They are unresponsive to any verbal and/or physical communication
-They are sitting or lying in a clenched position and have been doing so for a while. Clenched means that they are tensing a muscle group, such as crossing their legs and holding them to their chest with their arms.
-They sometimes murmur incoherent phrases
-If their eyes are open, they seem blank and they don’t seem to be aware of their surroundings

-----

SWIM was experiencing the first four of these once and it was the best trip he's had so far. So, maybe don't assume that it is already a bad trip.
But for sure, ask them if they are okay.


A note on physical restraint:
This may be required if they are thrashing around near something very hard or sharp. Remember, physically retraining someone on a bad trip is likely to make them worse and holding someone in the wrong way can easily result in a dislocated shoulder or something similar. If you feel you are not physically strong enough to restrain the tripper, call for help. Also, try to keep contact time and force to a minimum. For example, steer someone gently but forcibly away from danger, rather than grabbing them and trying to hold them on the floor. Of course, only you can really judge what is necessary.

-----

SWIM has had epilepsy since he was 11 and has experienced many seizures throughout the years.

I'll go through that passage in order.

1. If there is anything hard or sharp near the tripper, you should just move the objects away from them so they don't hit them while their arms and what-not are flailing around. Rather than restraining them.

2. If you are to hold any part of their body it should be their head. Put a pillow under their head and support it, as you only have 2 hands. A broken or dislocated arm is much more preferred over a damaged brain.

And turn them on their side (as you said in another passage) so they don't choke on their tongue.

3. Yeah it's definatley a must to keep force to a minimum.
- You probably shouldn't move them at all, unless you are unable to move some things away from them. Like, a wall.

Sorry if any of that sounded like flaming or something :/

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Au Cointraire: Excellent seizure management advice
	excellent post, very good information on how to spot a bad trip

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

^^Your advise had been edited into the OP.

More experience reports of extremely bad trips would be welcome.

thanks,

[sandoz1943]

SWIM has only had one bad trip herself. She was at a Pink Floyd concert on a ten strip and had just smoked a joint laced with coke (possible culprit) SWIM had third row seats and to get to the field you had to go down some stairs with a wall on either side. The dickheads running the show decided not to let anyone on the floor yet but no one behind swim knew this. SWIM has never been claustrophobic but was being pushed and shoved and feared being trampled. She looked up and the sky was rippling waves of colors. SWIM said outloud (thought she said this in her head) "next person who shoves me I'm going to rip and claw my way out of here, I'm freaking out" It was at that moment she realized this was said out LOUD . Next thing she knew she had the stair to herself and those around her were holding everone back and she could her them telling the people behind her " That chick is having a bad acid trip and freaking out back up" SWIM could have died and it was then they started letting everyone in. It was kinda nice having the stair all to herself.

Worse thing SWIM ever heard someone tell a friend having a bad trip "Your brain is like a big rubber band and you just streched it to far and it broke" How you gonna tell someone flipping out they just broke thier brain!

[Charolastra]

Swim thinks it is a good idea to get the tripper to lay down on their back or stomach and sit on top of them so they don't move until an ambulance or help comes.

Swim has had 2 trippers try to kill themselves and it was extremely hard to keep them down because they were jumping up and throwing themselves into a wall head first. The only way they would stay still is if I sat on top of them and talked to them.

Also call an ambulance as soon as you notice the person is acting like they are in another world, seem to repeat things, seem extremely frightened, and are unresponsive to any verbal and/or physical communication. Swim thought both of the people would get better and she would be able to talk them out of it, but it got to the point of no control in a matter of 10 minutes. Even if you're not sure the person might be going into an extremely bad trip, it's better to be safe.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Bad advice... sit on someone's stomach while they freak out? Very dangerous!

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by Charolastra

Swim has had 2 trippers try to kill themselves and it was extremely hard to keep them down because they were jumping up and throwing themselves into a wall head first. The only way they would stay still is if I sat on top of them and talked to them.

Could they "see" the wall, or were they just thrashing around with no apparent motive; were they "consciously" trying to hurt themselves, or just going berserk and happening to be near a wall?

[Frond]

[Note: this mostly applies to US residents]

Calling an ambulance should be done only if the subject is in medical danger. If the subject is wild and attempting to hurt themselves, they should be restrained. Sending authorities into the picture has an extremely high risk of legal trouble for everyone involved. A scary night of babysitting someone off their rocker is certainly nothing to laugh at, but it is always preferable to years in jail and a permanent criminal record. Not to mention the gigantic, monstrous hospital bill that someone is going to have to pay. Also, a hospital is rarely knowledgeable when it comes do dealing with psychedelic drugs in the first place.

This only applies when one knows for certain what drugs the subject is on. When that situation is unknown and a potentially dangerous drug interaction is taking place, then getting medical personnel involved is a better idea. Still, it should only be done when there is a clear medical emergency and not just someone freaking out in hyperspace. So, it is a good idea to monitor someone's vital signs throughout the experience.

These are some of the principles the Good Knight has used in handling a bad trip:

1) Get the subject to recognize that they're under the influence of a drug, and that the experience will end. If you do this they will almost always be able to get control of themselves. It's OK to be miserable on drugs, as long as the subject recognizes that these feelings are drug-influenced and that they will end.

2) If the subject cannot recognize that they're under the influence of a drug (i.e. they've "lost insight") and they are panicking they should be calmed and restrained if calming fails. Calming someone completely off their rocker is easily done by taking advantage of how easily distracted someone in a massively zonked-out state is. Change their environment - music, going outside if there is nobody around, turning the lights on and off, isolating them from others, etc. Give them something for their trip to latch onto that's something other than what's sending them off the edge. But if all of that fails, then restrain them, but don't ever get violent. The drugs will wear off in time.

3) Monitor their vital signs, and only call in medical aid when the subject has serious medical problems - severely elevated pulse, hypertension, seizures, difficulty breathing, etc. Off the wall behavior is not a medical emergency and is only needlessly going to get someone in trouble. Possibly everyone around them too. The US health care industry is not there to help you but to make money off you, and incidentally so is the drug enforcement industry, both of which you will be calling in to "help."

4) Don't administer even more drugs unless you know what you're doing.

5) The most important aspect of handling a bad trip is the re-integration period afterwards. They have to understand that a) their feelings were the result of a drug experience only and b) figure out how and why this experience went wrong, and if it did in the first place. A lot of so-called "bad trips" are simply people confronting things about themselves that they are in denial about. There is no denial with psychedelic drugs. All self-delusion barriers come down and the subject sees only the bitter truth.

6) Better yet, don't let SWIY give psychedelic drugs to someone that's not likely to handle them!

The Good Knight has had his share of bad experiences, but he was almost always alone, and it was up to him to talk himself down. Needless to say he passed those tests with flying colors, but then again he is the independent type to begin with. He also has had to play ground control for a number of space missions that went haywire, and by sticking to the above guidelines he did pretty well.

If someone pursues the forbidden knowledge of the spirit world then they're going to encounter difficulties. It's not a matter of if but a matter of when, and how hard. But, this is never the end of the world, and a difficult experience can teach someone a great deal about themselves, usually even more than an entirely positive experience. But, if someone is not capable of learning from such an experience, then they should be in the spirit world in the first place! These drugs aren't toys, but tools, and should be used with a purpose.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Extremely informative and practical advice
	Very good and precise information
	Good info. Thanks for pointing out the importance of the re-integration period.

[Potter]

Frond brings up monitoring of vitals. This should be a regular habit for a drug user, check your own on a regular basis. Get an idea of your baseline, get an idea of your limits. Do this, and when confronted with a situation like this, you'll be much better off to handle it.

Nobody's been through a number of classic "bad tripps" a number of times in moderately public locales and really disagrees with Charolastra, ambulance should be a last resort. Simply because someone is displaying erratic behavior, becomes unresponsive, thinks "they're dying", or any of the numerous other things mentioned, doesn't mean they will need any help. Some times those things just happen. Maintain a cool head and ask around, see what other people know, give the person some space.

I'm very against coddling the bad tripper. If someone thinks they're dying from eating LSD, telling them they won't isn't going to make them better, it's just going to make them fight the drug harder, resulting in more emotional distress. You tell them they will die, and they will come back, that it's their mind going through a process and they need to let go. I've got a post from years ago I'll pull up later on with more.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good advice!

[Wierd Logic]

I would stick in that trips are not necessarily continuously bad, but can be traumatic nonetheless. Once saw some poor guy go between laughing and crying within five seconds on a cycle, sometimes for up to half an hour. Very strange and disturbing to watch, and messed him up bad for a few days afterwards. I think it was mainly the extremity of the emotion he just wasn't prepared for.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by Wierd Logic

I would stick in that trips are not necessarily continuously bad, but can be traumatic nonetheless. Once saw some poor guy go between laughing and crying within five seconds on a cycle, sometimes for up to half an hour. Very strange and disturbing to watch, and messed him up bad for a few days afterwards. I think it was mainly the extremity of the emotion he just wasn't prepared for.

That sounds very similar to swim's first bad trip- he was so totally confused as to how he appeared to be able to change the trip with his mind by convincing himself that he was enjoying it that he kept fluctuating between being upset and anxious and laughing at how ridiculous it was...

Anyway whole experience reports would be appreciated
Also, if anyone has any suggestions as to naming different phases that would be cool.

*Note to all (not directed at weird logic) that this thread deals with extremely bad trips only. I am reluctant to define exactly what that is but I guess something that resembles a psychotic episode.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very good contributions across the board for anxiety prevention! Keep it coming. :)

[Potter]

A Doktor of Science once went to a rave planned on doing DXM (unknown amount) and ended up also adding in aprox 4 hits of blotter acid. It was an outdoor venue and everyone was camping. As the night wore on spatial distortions became quite severe with the sky and the ground becoming a violent storm, and the Doktor was forced to make their way back to the their tent. They took a few tries, and luckily didn't intrude on anyone not expecting it and they had quite a few sweet offers, but the Doktor needed none of that. You need to understand this Doktor had some pre-existing neurological conditions, so upon entering the safety of their tent, the falling and thrashing on the ground was hardly unexpected. For quite some time the Doktor was secure in their private bubble to fall between moments of lucidity in between hellish torture for their transgressions. Well the Doktor was not in the right mind, they were well aware that any one entering the tent may freak out that the Doktor was in need of some sort of "medical help" and they frankly did not have a full assessment of their vocal capabilities. As the Doktor had their own troubles finding their own tent that night, there became an ever present fear of discovery. Recollections are hazy, but the Doktor suspect there may have been visitors during the night and they seemed to have been appeased at what ever the Doktor said to them. The Doktor knew how bad they must have looked and was thankful no authorities, those kids either had a lot of trust or a lot of fear, either way, the Doktor lived on and no longer travels alone with strangers.

[DopinDan]

Has the OPSWIY read the Stanislov Grof books on LSD psychotherapy? SWIM recommends them highly to anyone interested in the psychedelic experience.

They are extremely valuable as an insight into the psychedelic experience, as Grof had sit with multiple people, and wrote about what may be going on.

According to Grof, in SWIM's interpretation of the books, people would re-live chains of traumatic experiences, ultimately going through a death/rebirth cycle, reliving ones own birth, that is very realistic.

SWIM doesn't have experience sitting, but has had multiple intense, frightening trips. SWIM believe material from his unconscious that he really didn't want to face was surfacing. Things like concepts of mortality/immortality and other trauma, much of which I no longer remember.

SWIM usually used music, since he knew as long as music (that he could deal with in the altered state..Bartok=NO , Hendrix or JGB or Motzart=yes, each SWIYS taste in music may be different) was playing, indeed time was passing, and the drug effect would eventually pass.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by DopinDan

Has the OPSWIY read the Stanislov Grof books on LSD psychotherapy? SWIM recommends them highly to anyone interested in the psychedelic experience.

Swim is reading them ATM, you will notice a reference to his work in the last section of the OP. Swim is also going through Dr Cohen's reports to find descriptions of psychotic episodes.

[DopinDan]

Originally Posted by Joe-(5-HTP)

Swim is reading them ATM, you will notice a reference to his work in the last section of the OP. Swim is also going through Dr Cohen's reports to find descriptions of psychotic episodes.

Ah yes, sorry, SWIM seemed to have missed that.

Good advice there by Grof, does SWIY know which book, and page, was that from by any chance?

Also I apologize if this is off topic, but SWIM was wondering in SWIY's experience. are the SWIYOs that are having the bad trips just on LSD, or on multiple substances such as LSD+Marijuana? SWIM found smoking too much Marijuana on a significant dose, can make a trip turn bad.

Great thread.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by DopinDan

Ah yes, sorry, SWIM seemed to have missed that.

Good advice there by Grof, does SWIY know which book, and page, was that from by any chance?

Also I apologize if this is off topic, but SWIM was wondering in SWIY's experience. are the SWIYOs that are having the bad trips just on LSD, or on multiple substances such as LSD+Marijuana? SWIM found smoking too much Marijuana on a significant dose, can make a trip turn bad.

Great thread.

They were both on LSD only, dosage approx 200-400mics.. I will add that to the OP.

Source for Grof: http://www.psychedelic-library.org/grof2.htm
The whole thing is a good read and very relevant to this topic, I recommend it !

[DopinDan]

The experience from LSD therapy and the new experiential psychotherapies clearly indicates that exposure to another person's deep emotional material tends to shatter psychological defenses and to activate corresponding areas in the unconscious of the persons assisting and witnessing the process, unless they have confronted and worked through these levels in themselves. Since traditional psychotherapies are limited to work on biographical material, even a professional with full training in analysis is inadequately prepared to deal with powerful experiences of a perinatal and transpersonal nature. The prevailing tendency to put all such experiences into the category of schizophrenia and suppress them in every way reflects not only a lack of understanding, but also a convenient self-defense against the helpers' own unconscious material. -Stanislov Grof from article/link posted by OP

The above passage from the Grof article SWIY linked, is very interesting.

Peter, at the end of the article, is a fortunate guy to have a guy as experienced as Grof come help him through his bad trip.

It is unfortunate that the political climate is as it is, and that Grof can't teach apprentaces, that teach others, the mastery of LSD Psychotherapy, to form a new paradigm, and understanding of ourselves.

[Durd1e]

Just a quick note on the use of benzos - this should be avoided until you are sure it is a very bad trip as (in the case of swim and the others that he knows) it reduces the ability to differentiate between hallucination and reality and does not give any mood lift. This can lead to a long uncomfortable 'mashed' trip which removes any chance of salcaging and enjoying it. I have to agree though that it is probably necessary for very very bad trips to prevent harm to the tripper or those around him/her.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Useful input of experience and knowledge.
	Good input of the use of benzos

[Richi]

I have added a lot of the content from this thread to the Panic Attack wiki. Thank you to everyone who contributed thus far, it is growing to become a very important and useful article on Drugs Forum. If you have time, please review and add information at will.

[VitaminK22]

Swim has posted this before in another thread, but i guess it wont hurt to put it here too.
About a year ago swim was at a house party where everyone was taking LSD, ket and XTC, the LSD was very strong in swims experience.
Someone swim didnt know (friend of a friend) started having a bad trip, which turned extremely bad. At first, the guy started shouting things (swim was too mashed to understand what was happening at the time) Swim remembers turning around and seeing a very worried look on the guys face, it looked like he was crying too. The guy then stood up, walked over to the CD player and put some heavy metal on full volume (over existing music which was being played through a PC), this pissed alot of people off cos non of swims friends like that kinda music and death metal/rock isnt nice to listen to on acid (god knows where he got the CD from). 1 of swims friends jumped up and quickly turned it off, this upset the guy having a bad trip cos he ran into the kitchen and wiped all the glasses off the side and table onto the floor, smashing the majority of them. A few of swims friends rushed into the kitchen and the guy was standing there with a knife screaming he was going to stab everyone, after everyone heard him, they all rushed into the kitchen. The guys friends tried to calm him down and got him to put the knife down, but then he ran upstairs, barging past everyone on the way, which pissed people off even more cos someone could have fallen on the glass. the guys friends chased after him and everyone else went back into the main room.

After about 20 mins of the normal LSD atmosphere (the kitched had been cleaned up too), the guy came running back down, went into the kitchen and threw some wine bottles off the wall then locked himself in the bathroom, this worried everyone cos they thought he might have taken a knife in there with him so someone had to kick the door open, the guy was in there with no trousers on and his head and shirt were drenched in water(he didnt have a knife), as he walked out of the bathroom he slipped and fell down and couldnt get back up, swims friends lifted him onto his feet and helped him into the main room and tried to calm him down, and told him if he carries on they are going to throw him out of the house. The guy seemed ok for a bit but then he ran into the kitchen and smashed some more glass items (glass figures and such).
This caused swims friend to lose his patience and he went into the kitchen, grabbed the guy and punched him once in the jaw and once in the side of his head, the guy fell to the ground looking very scared, the guys friends took him back upstairs while swims friends were trying to get him out of the house, swim said they cant throw him out cos he will do something stupid and that could cause a visit by the police (which is the last thing anyone wants when on LSD). Swims friend then locked the guy in a room with 2 of his friends taking it in turns sitting with him. The party continued and the atmosphere returned back to normal, the guy didnt come back downstairs until a couple of days later when the party had ended and everyone had woken up after being mashed for days.

punching and locking someone in a rooms probably isnt the best way to treat a bad trip but it certainly worked in this case. Swim will never forget an experience like this, it just goes to show how differently LSD reacts on different people, swim knows something like that will never happen to him or his friends

Reputation Comments on this post:

	please go back and add paragraph structure to your post, it will make it much easier to read.
	Very useful report. Just what the thread starter was requesting.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

^^ That was a very interesting report Vitamin K. That report, and others I have come across while looking for examples of extremely bad trips, has lead me to see that my listing of 'phases' lacks an important category: self destuctive and/or voilant behaviour. This state of mind seems to me to be very different to the other 'phases' I described because, in some sense or other, the person is aware of their surroundings. Anyway swim hasn't personally dealt with any self-destructive or consciously voilent behaviour with anyone having an extremely bad trip so if someone who has wants to write a section on it, describing it and giving advise, that would be a very significant addition.

[rhcpeppers1234]

God swim remembers one time at a music festival called WAKARUSA, he was having a great trip until someone offered him 2c-i which swim had never taken. Swim had heard of it before and the people giving it to him related it to MDMA, and swim loves candyflippin! so swim thought what the hell. Swim had to leave the concert area and was roaming around a festival when it was pitch black. This place was huge! Swim had no idea where he was or where the path was to get back to his tent. Then with some "DIVINE" intervention one of swims friends saw him and guided him back to his tent. Swim spent the rest of the night Curled up, just like swiy listed, and holding his legs against his chest. Swims GF was there trying to help him out but swims GF said swim did not even lock eyes with her for like 2 straight hours.

Finally swim was convinced to go to the tent with his GF. There it progressivly got less and less stressfull and scary. NEVER again will swim ingest 2c-i. F that s*it

(swim forgot to mention that he thought he heard people pointing and whispering bad things about swim. To this day swim doesnt know if they were or not but he believes that it was prolly just swim being paraniod and crazy.)

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

^^
Thanks for the report rhcpeppers1234, it is good to hear that certain features of extremely bad trips which I have described here are corroborated as typical features.

Also, I have significantly expanded the OP.

S Cohen's paper, which is the paper quoted in the OP many times can be found here:
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...tid=32&id=1088

More extremely bad trip reports are welcome. Also, suggestions for the 'aftermath' period would be great as I will attempt to write a section on that.

Reputation Comments on this post:

great contributions to the wiki joe

[Richi]

Originally Posted by VitaminK22

Swim has posted this before in another thread, but i guess it wont hurt to put it here too.
About a year ago swim was at a house party where everyone was taking LSD, ket and XTC, the LSD was very strong in swims experience.
Someone swim didnt know (friend of a friend) started having a bad trip, which turned extremely bad.....

Thanks for the write up Vitamin K.
Do you know how many doses of LSD this individual took?
Also, do you know if they were under the influence of any other drugs?

[VitaminK22]

Swim isnt too sure what the guy took before the lsd (think it was xtc) but swim knows he dropped 3 tabs, started going a bit mad(saying stuff you dont wanna talk about on lsd, we didnt think nothing of it) , then took 2 more without anyone really noticing until afterwards.

Swim would also like to point out that the guys friend told swim that the guy went mad once before but it wasnt as bad, his friend just thought he had an ordinary bad trip. It was probably the second dose that caused him to freak out so badly the second time.

The guys friend said hes never taking lsd with him again after that night

Reputation Comments on this post:

very good information, thanks for the follow up

[shwinehund]

SWIM would like to say that he finds people get highly sensitive to suggestion (amongst other things).

SWIM has had people tell him that they smashed a glass, then proceded to go "like this" and started trying to smash the glass on his head. Also, writing on things in deco markers, throwing glasses at the wall, taking off clothes, insisting on smoking ALL the weed, when it is suggested.

Hyper suggestive/impulsive. So suggesting that one is "having a bad trip" only reinforces the bad trip.

Oh, one more note, SWIM found that if he got his breathing to match the rhythm of their breathing, he could slowly reduce his pace, and they would follow. This works for chickens, cats and (relatively) sober women too!