Addiction - Stop cannabis with nootropics...

[Guigz]

Hey everybody,

SWIM is interested by nootropic for repair the dommages of 15 years of cannabis abuse and recover memory and his concentration faculty.

SWIM was already in possession of Oxyracetam, choline bitartrate and dexpanthenol(B5), phenibut, Acetyl L carnitine, Theanine.

SWIM looking for stacks who can help him for this good resolution.

He thought of the following stack:

Oxyracetam 800mg twice a day
Choline bitartrate 1g twice a day with 200mg of dexpanthenol
Acetyl L carnitine.

And phenibut ( 1,5gr at bedtime ) to combat insomnia the first days.

My questions:

Good stack for his resolutions?
Anything to say about the dosage specially for the carnitine?
Where can he slip theanine into this stack?

Thanks.

Reputation Comments on this post:

interesting topic, though you should be more cautious in the way you present subjective experiences such as this. Cannab...

[Systemdoll]

Have you tried anyway?
How it goes ?

[Guigz]

Originally Posted by Systemdoll

Have you tried anyway?
How it goes ?

Humm...SWIM tried this stack, that's help him, no anxiety, good concentration, but he have some trouble with insomnia and phenibut wasn't a good idea because after 4 days of uses the dosage was multiplied by two for similar effect.

So SWIM was an insomniac now.
And he looking's for modafinil, thanks for the tips.

[Snipp]

Cannabis DOES NOT cause brain damage or the death of brain cells. It has actually been found have neuroprotective properties. Seriously, there is no excuse for this misinformation. Use Google please.

Reputation Comments on this post:

True. This thread is ridiculous. Reason appreciated.

[vantranist]

How is this thread rediculus? He has memory problems and concentration problems from cannabis abuse... So does swim any many others from smoking weed.

Its a perfectly fine question. SWIM understands where the op is coming from.

Good luck, and don't let these experienced make you feel stupid.

It doesn't need to cause brain damage to have negative effects on ur health.

I also want to make it very clear cannabis can cause, and has been proven to cause memory and concentration problems, at least temporarily.

[Guigz]

Originally Posted by vantranist

How is this thread rediculus? He has memory problems and concentration problems from cannabis abuse... So does swim any many others from smoking weed.

Its a perfectly fine question. SWIM understands where the op is coming from.

Good luck, and don't let these experienced make you feel stupid.

It doesn't need to cause brain damage to have negative effects on ur health.

I also want to make it very clear cannabis can cause, and has been proven to cause memory and concentration problems, at least temporarily.

Thanks for your help!!

Maybe it's because my english is not fluent but the message wich I tried to write was about a REAL expériences with drugs, particulary with cannabis and his soft addiction. Each times SWIM tried to stop, SWIM succeed, in 3 days.
But SWIM feeling confused, anxious, SWIM have real trouble to focus his attention on something, so he can't read, learn etc...for a long periode after the stop.
In 2 month everything returns to the normal.

But maybe it's not cannabis, maybe i'm really fucking stupid....
Stupid for one reasons, that's sure, post on an english forum with bad level in english, but the information in french about nootropic are scarce.

So if Swim feeling anxious and have problem to focus is attention, can he use this stack ( cannabis doesn't have any impact on his trouble, ok, ok; )?

[psykonaut]

I'm not sure what type of brain damage cannabis causes, SWIY would just have to abstain from doing it for a while and let your receptors bridge back together. Over time your memory will be much better. If possible, get a prescription to the nootropic modafinil.

[Snipp]

OK, lets keep this as science based as possible. If you stop smoking pot, you're brain will return to normal function. Yes, weed does impair short term memory. I'm not debating that. He is referring to long-term use. Here's the proof.

hxxp://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/58/10/909

Neuropsychological Performance in Long-term Cannabis Users Harrison G. Pope, Jr, MD; Amanda J. Gruber, MD; James I. Hudson, MD, SM; Marilyn A. Huestis, PhD; Deborah Yurgelun-Todd, PhD

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001;58:909-915.


Conclusion Some cognitive deficits appear detectable at least 7 days after heavy cannabis use but appear reversible and related to recent cannabis exposure rather than irreversible and related to cumulative lifetime use.

[geezaman]

Snipp states some opinions (even if with reference) as fact. But no one study can be considered conclusive, but instead part of a growing body of evidence supporting a view. Even if everyone agrees, it does not necessarily make it correct. Big instances of this that come to mind are the sun revolving around the earth and the earth itself being flat. both were considered fact until a paradigm shift took place.

To expand on Snipps reference (and Snuffkin is only doing so because he happened to submit a lit review on this topic a few months back, and so has the info to hand)

Pope et al (2001) performed tests on their participants at 0, 1, 7, and 28 days. Their participants were in three groups, "Current heavy users" , "Past users" and "Non users". Non users had used cannabis on less than 50 occasions through life. Past and current users had both used cannabis on 5000+ occasions, but with past users having used it less than 12 times within the 3 months preceding the study.
At 0, 1, and 7 days of abstinence significant differences were found between the "current heavy user" group and the "non user" group. BUT from the testing done at day 28 no significant differences were found.

As this study used a repeated measures design learning and practice effects may have effected pope et al's results. A criticism of Pope et al (which they accept) was that their testing methods were not sensitive enough to show the differences that existed between the two groups (Babor 2002).

Babor's own study used more sensitive testing methods, and found significant difference between users and non users, BUT the abstinence period prior to testing was (median) 17 hours. So Babor's findings were likely due to hangover effects or cannabinoid activity at the point of testing.

Few studies into the effects of cannabis can compare pre-drug performance with post-drug performance. One exception Snuffkin found to this is Fried & Gray (2005). Fried & Gray's study had a longitudinal design. As part of other research they tested children yearly from birth to 7years old and at intervals to the age of 21. Their study found that current cannabis users had significantly worse overall IQ, processing speed, and immediate & delayed memory than non users. BUT that 3 months after cessation of use no deficit could be found in past heavy users (5+ joints per week) compared with non users. Fried & Grey's (2005) sample although including heavy users, did not include users who could be considered long term users as the studies of Pope et al (2001) and Babor (2002) had. Some of Fried & Gray's Heavy users had only been using cannabis for a period of 3 months prior to testing.

Fried, P., & Gray, W. (2005). Neurocognitive consequences of marihuana- a comparison with pre-drug performance. Neurotoxicology and teratology 27,231-239.

Babor, T. (et al) (2002). Cognitive functioning of long-term heavy cannabis users seeking treatment. JAMA, 287,1123-1131.

From those studies mentioned above we can see that;
A) Each study had significant benefits: use significantly more sensitive testing, Greater Abstinence/wash out period, Longitudinal design allowing within participant pre and post drug comparison.

But also that;
B) Each study had weakness when compared to each of the others.

When Snuffkin performed his literary review studies in support of there being no long-term detriment from cannabis use did seem to be in the majority... BUT over the past 8 or so years (within the UK at least) the composition of cannabis (cannabinoid ratio THC to CBD etc) has changed and the majority of research out there has occurred prior to the past 8 or so years. So may not be relevant or accurate in relation to today's cannabis users.

Please do not take this as an insult Snipp, My post here is simply to try and dissuade people from reading your post and taking it as a conclusion to the much still open debate on the effects cannabis has on cognitive performance.


Peace,
Geezaman

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Excellent references. Balanced post
	Great debate-stimulating contribution

[Snipp]

Fair enough, I do respect your usage of abstracts. It is important for everyone referencing studies that the experiemnts were performed adequately.

Remember the old study from the 1970s that concluded pot kill brains cells in monkeys? It sounded probable, considering the amount of disinformation that was propagated. The monkeys suffered brain damage because they were deprived of oxygen. My point is that I do agree, most studies should be taken with a grain of salt.

It should be noted that Alzheimer patients showed reduced signs of dementia with THC use. This gives some credence to the theory that marijuana does not cause permanent loss in brain function.

Yes, the jury is still out on conclusive proof. I'd wager though, that even heavy canabis use is not detrimental to one's IQ.

Personally, some dude at my University has improved his GPA vastly, even while using cannabis frequently.

I think the problem is that too many cannabis users let their brains atrophy. Instead of challeging their minds with complex ideas and concepts, they stare at the TV and munch on Cheetos.

[geezaman]

Originally Posted by Snipp

I think the problem is that too many cannabis users let their brains atrophy. Instead of challenging their minds with complex ideas and concepts, they stare at the TV and munch on Cheetos.

Snuffkin thinks you have hit on a key factor there. Cannabis users may suffer reduced or impeded IQ, but rather than cannabis directly causing this it seems much more plausible that it would relate to the; attention, motivation, and memory issues, of cannabis use.

Even if say Snuffkin were to smoke for three months and then stop. It seems most studies report that functioning would be back to normal after 1 month. However in the 3 month smoking stage Snuffkin would perhaps have been unable to take on new knowledge to the same level, or recite and maintain existing knowledge, thus leaving him (in very broad terms) with three months less knowladge and mental development than a non smoker. ... this is all hypothetical of course

Maybe a feasible way of legalizing cannabis would be to first ban Cheetos?

Peace
Geezaman

[EscapeDummy]

I'd be willing to bet that if a psychologist did a "double blind" study of 100 individuals in college, 50 of whom smoked cannabis, he'd be unable to distinguish with any accuracy the smoking from non-smoking individuals purely on a cognition/performance basis. There is no brain damage from your long term cannabis use.

However, if you've been drinking, or indulging in other drugs over the years, that may be a factor. Or maybe you just aren't challenging your brain enough. Methinks try a few crossword puzzles before you slam the brain stacks.

[psykonaut]

Well, fact is, long term cannabis use decreases the blood flow to the brain, which is what causes the memory impairment after a while. If I were you, I would just supplement with ginkgo biloba, which does the opposite effect. Ever since I started taking alot of it, my memory has increased and my mind is sharper. If you start taking it, the negative effects should slowly go away and you should feel better.

[EscapeDummy]

Long term cannabis use decreases brain blood flow? Source please?

[liventruth]

If anyone is trying to reduce their cannibis use, SWIM has found that phenylethylamine does wonders in this area when used as the water mixture method... mixing the powder in the water and drinking a paint-thinner-esque liquid... works wonders, says swim

[snapper]

how often does SWIY drink phenethylamine, (what dose in mgs?) and does it help with the withdrawal effects or cognitive problems like memory loss?

[liventruth]

DISCLAIMER: Anyone with a heart condition should NOT attempt the following method for curbing withdrawals and successfully beating an addiction....

SWIM takes piracetam with the phenyl...
Here is SWIMs regimen for debasing an addiction

upon awakening:
3 Grams phenylethylamine mixed in 30 oz. warm water
then adds 1-1.5 grams of piracetam

This should give a good euphoric and cognitive buzz for at least 3 hours...
after 3 hours or when the euphoria subsides:

2 grams of phenylethylamine in 20 oz. warm water
1-1.5 grams of piracetam mixed in after the phenyl is mixed well

... repeat throughout the day until 4 hours before sleeping....

t-minus 2 hours before bed, regardless of the euphoria being experienced, SWIM takes 300-500mg picamilon mixed well in warm water...

SWIM finds that by the time he wants to go to sleep he is able to lie down and fall asleep within 3-5 minutes...

SWIM is not on any other medications or drugs... IF CESSATING FROM ANY DRUG AND USING THIS METHOD, PLEASE CONSULT A KNOWLEDGEABLE NEUROPSYCHOPHARMACOLOGIST IF YOU ARE ON ANY MEDICATION WHATSOEVER. Also, DO NOT MIX ANY STIMULANTS LIKE RITALIN, ADDERALL, ETC. WITH THIS METHOD... CAN CAUSE SERIOUS HEART PROBLEMS...

SIDE EFFECTS OF THIS METHOD: You will notice an increase in heart rate. Flushing WILL occur. Do not worry, this should only last 15-30 minutes at most... if at any time you feel uncomfortable with the process, proceed to dose with 300-500mg of picamilon... this will almost instantly lower your heart rate and stop the euphoria...

SWIM has had amzing results with this method and after day five... the method becomes an option, not a necessity... seriously.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thank's for sharing...