Health - Creatine Monohydrate Max Out?

[Akashik]

Swim has taken creatine monohydrate before to help with Gym work.

Though he's wondering if there will ever be a point in time were his body WONT absorb anymore OR benefit him anymore.

Swim is worried a point in time will come were he will be stuck after a creatine stacking month and then wont be able to push more weight because its not effective anymore the next month.

Any possiblity this can happen or similar?
Swim hates getting stuck, its discouraging!! and then he ends up getting lazy!

Swim knows a basic rule with Creatine is that you have to use it every other month. So one month on , one month off.

Please dont advise swim to take steroids or anything of that nature!! *thats later on down the road! * maybe...

Anyways is there anyway this "scenario" can happen?
( i hope this is in the right thread )

[snapper]

SWIM has never found creatine to make a whole lotta difference, and everyone gets "stuck" eventually. Some people's body types prevent them from continuing to build muscle after a certain point. This is the biggest reason why people use anabolics. Theoretically all supplements need to be cycled since the body grows accustomed to them and the edge will be gone. Same with lifting weights - it is important to vary one's routine to keep muscles from adapting to one or there will be no more gains. SWIM has been lifting weights along with running for 5 years now and has not gained much if any strength in the last 18 months. SWIM does not care because SWIM is not a weight lifter and exercises for health reasons, but noticed the difference nonetheless. This has not made SWIM lazy. SWIM looks at the purpose of exercise is to maintain what SWIM has gained and keep SWIM healthy.

[Yetti]

You know when you've been on Df too long when... You use "SWIM" as to not self-incriminate about working out. lol

SWIM (who knows he is still a noob)...has noticed before that when he hit a plataeu using creatine, drinking more water helped. He does not know whether or not water had anything to do with it, but it seemed to help.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Yetti

You know when you've been on Df too long when... You use "SWIM" as to not self-incriminate about working out. lol

...or when you say to your mom "Swims not going back to uni for another week"

Now that was an odd situation to explain

[snapper]

SWIM is technically supposed to be used for everything, legal or otherwise. SWIM just always uses it, though it is true that SWIM spenda a lot of time on drugforums.
Drinking lots of water helps and should always be done as part of any comprehensive workout routine.

[Potter]

Lord if I can find it, but there was a story a few years back about someone growing new "bones" possibly as a result of long term regular ingestion of this stuff. They had to have these shards removed surgically leaving massive scars not to mention LOTS of pain.

OK here's the text

Bigger, stronger ... but at a terrible cost: Bodybuilder undergoes battery of surgeries to save life, legs
2004-04-02
by Mike Archbold
Journal Reporter

A deep blue and red scar carves the skin on the outside of both of Travis Starkovich's legs, from his hips to his ankles.

Orthopedic surgeons' scalpels have sliced them open again and again over the past five months to save his life and legs.

The 22-year-old would-be bodybuilder has endured 15 operations on his legs in the past five months. There could be three or four more to come. He can stand and walk although he tires easily. Falling over can be a sudden and painful mishap.

The good news is that he didn't lose his legs, but he knows he will never have full use of them again. His kidneys and liver also failed, but now are on the mend.

What happened to Starkovich last fall might have overwhelmed a less strong-willed young man.

He has endured because he is stubborn, he said, and now wants to bring a message to anyone who will listen, particularly young athletes and their parents about the dangers of creatine, a popular over-the-counter muscle-building supplement.

``I hope to tell my story as much as possible,'' he said last week sitting in the living room of his mother's home in Selleck, a small community east of Covington. ``If I save one life, I've done my job.''

Training aimed at show

Last summer, the Muckleshoot Casino security guard began seriously training as a bodybuilder. The Washington State Figure Fitness and Bodybuilding Championships were scheduled for Oct. 23 in Auburn and he aimed his training at the show.

At the Auburn and Kent fitness centers where he trained, other bodybuilders took creatine and other supplements as well as steroids to obtain the finely sculpted bodies they sought. Everyone did it, he said. He got a personal trainer to help advise him on nutrition and supplements.

Starkovich said he never took steroids and no one ever recommended he take creatine. But he remembered from high school when he took the creatine for a month, how much it helped develop his muscles and increase his performance at cross country running.

Each morning and evening for three and half months leading up to the bodybuilding competition he took the recommended dose of 5 grams. A month's supply cost him about $50.

He took other supplements like the other bodybuilders: glutamine, a thermogenic and a high protein shake.

He trained hard: two hours each morning and then again in the evening. The regimen was working. At one point, the 5-foot 9-inch Starkovich weighed 215 pounds with 2 percent body fat. His biceps had grown by nearly three inches. When he flexed, the striations in his muscles where visible. He also was dieting hard to bring his weight down and further sculpt his body.

Legs started cramping

Then about a week before the competition, his urine suddenly turned very dark and his legs started cramping. He thought his electrolytes were screwed up. The urine cleared up.

Then three days before the competition, his urine again turned black. He felt weak and tired. The cramping became worse. He went to Highline Community Hospital in Burien on a Thursday to find out what was wrong. No one knew, but they told him his creatine level was at 3,500; the normal level in a human body is 50 to 100. He came back for blood work the next day. His creatine level hit 9,000.

``It scared the hell out of me,'' he said. ``The cramping was like someone on each side of me hitting my legs with a sledge hammer.''

On Saturday, he went by ambulance to Harborview Medical Center. He was in a fight for his life. He would stay at Harborview for 5½ weeks.

By then his legs were so cramped up, he was put on morphine. They began to swell. His heartbeat climbed to 120 and stayed there for a week. His kidney and liver began shutting down.

``I don't remember much the first two weeks,'' he said.

The only way to find out what was wrong with his legs was to look inside. What they found, he said, was decaying muscle.

``After the fourth day they wanted to amputate both legs at the hip,'' he said. ``They were afraid the decay would spread to my lower intestines.''

Cutting out dead muscle

The surgeons began cutting out the dead muscle out of his legs. In its place, new bones began to grow. That, too, had to be cut out, he said.

Even now a second femur bone lies close to the skin in his upper left leg. Rapping it with his knuckle, it sounds like a piece of hard wood. It has to come out. There are other bone growths, too. One almost poked through his skin before it was removed.

What caused all the problems?

``The doctors (at Harborview) told me it was the creatine,'' he said. ``My body wouldn't process it.'' It ended up poisoning him.

The process was quiet and insidious. ``It came on so quickly, I had no idea what was going on,'' he said. ``If it can happen to me it can happen to anyone.''

That's why he wants to warn people about the dangers of supplements, especially creatine that can be taken like candy without a doctor's guidance.

``Those taking the stuff right now they may be fine but in three years or 10 years, they will have problems,'' he said. ``Most of your teenage guys don't know the physiology of how the body works, how creatine works and protein works in the body.''

Danger to young athletes?

Like many creatine users, he heard about it at the gym. The nutrition stores that sell it issues warnings, he said.

``I know high school athletes are taking it.'' he added.

He said his doctors at Harborview want him to talk to the University of Washington Sports Medicine Clinic about his case and the consequences of his creatine use.

What happened to him may not happen to everyone. But Starkovich is convinced that creatine use will lead to physical problems later on.

In a Journal report last summer on teenage athletes and use of supplements, most Eastside coaches said they don't endorse players' use of creatine.

One athlete said he and his teammates don't take creatine simply because there are too many things they don't know about its side effects.

There are no long-term studies on creatine but there have been complaints about dehydration, cramping and nausea as well as kidney problems.

Starkovich's case is rare but no one disputes the possibility of damage to the body from the use of creatine and other supplements.

He can stand and walk now though he tires easily. He can't fully bend his legs. New bone growth has locked his knees. He still doesn't know yet how much use of his leg he will have in the future.

Praise for Haborview staff

He praised the Harborview physicians and staff who never gave up on him. His employer has also been supportive, extending his health insurance to cover the cost of his medical care that already is near $500,000. He also thanks God and the prayers offered up by fellow Mormons for his ongoing recovery.

His plan once his operations are over is to begin a nursing course at Green River Community College this fall, even if he has to do it in a wheelchair.

And he will continue to speak out about creatine to whomever will listen.

Starkovich's struggle is far from over but he said it is getting better. ``You have good days and bad days,'' he said.

Yes there's lots of issus here "what the doctors told me" being the biggest. At the same time this isn't exactly a common thing and it's hard not to blame the massive creatine doses. Sorry but the original story is gone.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good harm reduction in an unexpected situation!
	great info about creatine i use it and didn't know about all of this !

[mashed]

thats scary!
thats me put off taking creatine

[snapper]

SWIM thinks the above account is anomlous. Many people use creatine and this is not what happens to any SWIM has known. SWIM hs taken creatine on and off for over ten years and is needless to say fine. This individual must have a genetic predisposition to this condition.

[Potter]

Snapper: You specifically mention you were taking it "on and off", I can't imagine that massive continuous dosing of this stuff in place of normal diet. There is little doubt that this is HIGHLY anomalous, but you have to admit that in "bodybuilding culture" condones if not out right encourages such abnormal activities (see The Man Whose Arms Exploded for evidence) and being able to buy that stuff in giant buckets certainly doesn't seem to scream of responsible use.

No I can't imagine that this stuff is THAT risky, but it shouldn't be considered utterly harmless just because it's legal and sold in huge amounts. Like anything you can not live on it alone (though people seem to do so).

If this happened more then a few times, I'm sure the FDA would have stepped in. I'd really love someone with journal access to see if there is any peer reviewed evidence for this case. I'll go post it in the Medline access thread and if we hear anything it'll get back here.

[runitsthepolice]

If swim's diet contains any red meat then his muscles are already 99% saturated with creatine. Any additional creatine is excreted in the urine. Talk about literally pissing money away.

This stuff MIGHT be useful for increasing creatinine levels in the urine when one is diluting for a drug test. The only things that make a difference in strength training is maintaining a healthy diet, working hard, and illegal drugs (steroids actually work, but they have side effects and dangers). Taking a multivitamin couldn't hurt.

[snapper]

SWIM takes creatine due to being a vegetarian. Theoretically it is supposed to boost creatine little bit when needed during exercise, therefore improving muscle development.

[SunMoon]

Creatine works by pulling water into the muscles. You should do a load phase where you take 20 grams for 5 days, and then keep taking 5 grams a day to mantain the muscles loaded with creatine and water. You should then cicle off (go for a month or 2 at most) and stay off for an equal amount of time, to prevent any kidney damage.
Cheers.