suboxone is a miracle drug or is it?

[MrPhReeZ]

all swim knows is they havent had a oxy for 3 days with no w/d,s without suboxone swim would not be clean! elow is my story! thank you any feedack would be greatly appreactied!








My first name is tony im 28 years old and swim has been addicted to ROXICODONE (30 MG) FOR OVER A YEAR NOW! They were GETTING 240 PILLS A MONTH FOR A YEAR (WELL OVER A YEAR) anyways swim on second day with suboxone (8mg 4 times a day) 2 whole days with no oxy,s its amazing no w/d,s at all swim feels great they dont have any cravings it truly is a miracle drug! it got to the point with swim's addiction it went from eating the oxy,s to snorting them to iv,ing them (shooting them up) they've been shooting them for 4 months or so and thats when swim realized they had a major problem they was shooting up between 5 to 8 OXY,S (sometimes more) and was running out of script and resorting to buying them off the street (spending about $xx a pill) and was buying 40 or so untill next doc visit major money! so not to ramble on but like i said 2 whole days with no oxy! to anyone who has any doubts about suboxone! IT WORKS! IF YOU WANT TO BE SOBER GET ON SUBOXONE!
THANK YOU ANY FEED BACK GREATLY APPREACTIED!

: vibes:

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I know you are new here, but you're not supposed to discuss prices or self-incriminate. It's all in the rules. You've st...

[tyranny4u]

without suboxone i would not be clean!

you aren't clean while taking suboxone. you are taking buprenorphine,
which is a partial µ-agonist. that means you keep on consuming
an opioide with addictive potential you shouldn't underestimate.

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by tyranny4u

you aren't clean while taking suboxone. you are taking buprenorphine,
which is a partial µ-agonist. that means you keep on consuming
an opioide with addictive potential you shouldn't underestimate.

Clean is a judgement call...Different people have different opinions on what is considered clean. To the OP, good job, keep up the good work. Even though SWIY is on Suboxone which is a partial agonist, that is a hell of a lot better than what SWIY was doing before

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Very true.

[Naked Lunch]

Yep, bupe is an addictive substance, one I cant live without currently. So wath out you don't swap your roxy habit for a bupe habit.

[SuboxDoc]

I look forward to the day when we treat opiate dependence like any other chronic illness. Yes, 'clean' depends on what the person considers to be clean. But Suboxone is more than a replacement opiate; it eliminates the obsession to use in a way that agonists cannot.

Make no mistake though-- you are 'opiate dependent' on Suboxone. But a person on effexor or on a beta blocker will have withdrawal from those medications as well. There is a difference between 'physical dependence' and 'addiction'-- addiction is the obsession to use, and that is exactly what Suboxone eliminates- when taken PROPERLY, anyway.

I use the steps to treat my 16-year opiate addiction, but like other people using that technique, if I stop using the steps I open the door to relapse. Opiate dependence requires longstanding, often life-long management. Now there are two options-- change your personality with some type of recovery meetings, or use a medication (i.e. buprenorphine).

I am not a 'greedy suboxone doctor'-- I am not accepting new Suboxone patients. But in my experience, it is the way to treat opiate addiction in most cases. I wish the stigma would end; so much now comes from other opiate addicts!! If a person is happy with their own recovery, I urge them to avoid throwing rocks at people who are finding a way to survive using a different treatment.
Jeffrey T Junig MD PhD
SuboxDoc on suboxonetalkzone

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good example distinguishing addiction and dependence

[MrPhReeZ]

Well put!` thanks so much!~

MrPhReeZ added 2 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

Thanks nice reply!

[Naked Lunch]

Suboxone/Subutex has never eliminated my urge to use, I'm still as obsessed with it as when I'm not on the program. It holds me to a certain extent but I still get the feeling that I'm hanging out sometimes. Its a good drug to withdraw from H with but its no wonder miracle cure for addiction.
Methadone holds me way better, I actually feel I can not use for certain periods of time on methadone but methadone doesn't agree with my digestive system and causes major constipation, much worse than H so sub is my compromise.
Even though I'm on the program I still live a junky lifestyle, i do nothing, have poor self hygeine, have no interests in anything other than opiates and books about opiates etc, suboxone has only given me one thing, the ability to not get sick regularly, thats it and I'm really starting to get fed up with the program.
In australia we have to go to the pharmacy to pick up our sub from 3 to 7 days a week, we are virtually chained to the pharmacy on the program here. It costs AU$42 (some pharmacies charge up to AU$84 per week!!!) per fortnight where I am dosing and I am required to attend the pharmacy for dosing 3 days per week, the other four days I get take away doses to take home. The thing about the cost of it is that the government gives sub and methadone to the pharmacies free of charge and they charge us a "dispensing fee" which is from $3 to $12 daily, thats ridiculous money for a 1 minute job and considering we users, once on the program, are meant to be leading straight crime free lives the money is hard to come by for the sub payment for some of us as living on unemployment benefits or a pension is hard, we get hardly enough to live on yet we are expected to pay out up to 1/3 of our payment on damn suboxone/subutex/methadone.

I've kinda gone off track a bit here but my point is, suboxone/subutex are not miracle cures, not by a long shot!

[SuboxDoc]

'Miracle drug' is a bit strong, but I have dealt with my own addiction for 15 years-- and I have watched as people in 'good recovery' stop the meetings and relapse. Before or without Suboxone, that is opiate dependence; periods of use interrupted by periods of sobriety. Many people boast about not using Suboxone, but I am most interested in talking to the people who have been dealing with their addiction for over 5-10 years; those people know what I am talking about. It is easy to hold a recovery program together for a few years; it is much more rare to hold one together for a lifetime. So there have never been great options for opiate addiction; I am happy to have one more.

The biggest benefit to having Suboxone, though, is for the addicts who have their life generally together, so far anyway-- who before Suboxone would get worse and worse before finally going into treatment, usually after losing many things in life including career and family. Those people come to my practice and do very well on Suboxone; I tell them up front that it is NOT a cure, and if a person stops taking it, they will be at risk of relapse. In spite of not being a cure, for most of them (if not all) it is a heck of a lot better than the life they had when they were using. One nice thing is that if a person does want to stop Suboxone, and he/she DOES relapse, I make it clear that I will take them back without delay and get them stabilized again on Suboxone-- that way if they want a trial off of it, they are welcome to try. And the withdrawal can be reduced using a number of meds for the short term-- such as neurontin for the sweats, clonidine for the agitation, a benzo for sleep... the risk of a new addiction when using a med for the short term in this way is minimal.

I can't speak to 'naked's' experience, but it is not similar to the effects that Suboxone has had for the couple hundred patients I have treated over the past few years. The best thing about prescribing the medication is seeing people who thought life was essentially over come in for follow-up appointments, and talk about how appreciative they are. That is not common in a psychiatry practice-- but it is very common with Suboxone treatment!

I do some things a bit differently than other docs, such as emphasize dosing no more than once each day, always in the AM, to extinguish the conditioned behavior that is part of addiction.

I never get the anger people have toward Suboxone; it is their opiate dependence that is the problem-- not the Suboxone! For a new generation of medication, the side effects are few-- I remember the first antihypertensive meds, that caused impotence, depression, fainting spells... as time passes, better bupe analogs will be developed.

As I said before, being on Suboxone is not as good as being a 'non-addict'-- but I don't see that as an option for most people. Opiate dependence tends to last a lifetime. And for people who can't stay clean any other way, Suboxone works darn well most of the time.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting info about your prescribing experiences, and the general absense of long-term abstinence. I'd say it was the...

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by SuboxDoc

Opiate dependence tends to last a lifetime.

swim strongly disagrees with this statement. swim is living proof it doesnt.

getting off heroin/methadone was easy as shit. the only difference between swims final detox, and the 7 years of failed attempts beforehand, was FRAME OF MIND.

it really is that simple. if you really want to get off it you will. however, if you cant come to terms with saying goodbye to your opiate lover, or you want to revisit her just one more time, then youre screwed pretty much.

one thing that concerns swim, is that people dont seem to understand the simple fact that if an opiate addict in recovery uses opiates/turns to benzos/meth/etc, they gonna get hooked all over again! of course there might be the 0.001% of people who defy their addiction, but generally the addiction will resume.

went a little off topic there, but fuck it.



dont take it, and you wont have a problem.

[Naked Lunch]

Getting off H is easy (providing its not cold turkey), its staying off for the rest of ones life that is near impossible. Especially when staying off leaves a giant void in ones life which tends to happen to almost everyone. Heroin fills that void with the rituals and routines that Heroin brings the user. Abstinence is hard for a lot of people because they don't want to abstain in the first place.

Buprenorphine is a good medication for opiate dependence but I only wish its agonist properties where a little stronger, that's its downfall compared to Methadone for example.

I'm on 32mg of subutex and most days I still feel like I'm hanging out to a certain extent, not full on like with a full agonist but I do nonetheless and it shouldn't be happening being on it.

I've heard smaller doses are better but as soon as I try to reduce to a smaller dose in an attempt to feel better my cravings go thru the roof so I'm stuck on 32mg. I used to be on a smaller dose though and to be perfectly honest, it was no different.

I've been a Heroin addict for 14 years (drug user for 17 years) and I've been on and off the programs for about 8 years, always relapsing. The longest period of time I've gone without using Heroin or Morphine etc is about 6 months, life gets to full on being a square all the time, the stresses and strains of things like tying your shoes, shaving, showering, cooking a meal and getting dressed all becomes too much in the end and I relapse.

My problem is I like the junkie lifestyle, I'm in love with Heroin! My childhood and adulthood hero's in life are junkies like William s Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, all my interests in life are Heroin related. It makes me happy and my life is complete on it but it has some downfalls to it like, hanging out and the possibility of arrest and re-arrest for various reasons.
I'm not a good candidate for successful rehabilitation in my opinion.

I see no long term abstinence for my self to be honest and I know I'll be on one opioid or another till the day I die. Maybe some day there will be a more suitable answer to the drug problem, maybe I'll see it in my lifetime, maybe not but I would hope that the so called "civilized" governments of Australia and America make laws to allow doctors to prescribe Diamorphine to us long time heroin addicts, it would solve a lot of social and health problems associated with being a junkie. Can you imagine...crime would drop to an all time low over night!!!

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by Naked Lunch

My problem is I like the junkie lifestyle, I'm in love with Heroin! My childhood and adulthood hero's in life are junkies like William s Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, all my interests in life are Heroin related. It makes me happy and my life is complete on it but it has some downfalls to it like, hanging out and the possibility of arrest and re-arrest for various reasons.
I'm not a good candidate for successful rehabilitation in my opinion.

I see no long term abstinence for my self to be honest and I know I'll be on one opioid or another till the day I die.

in the nicest possible way, this frame of mind is your problem, and swiy wont escape with this. swim used to think like this herself, and thats why she wasnt successful for so many years.

tbh it was the positive affirmations that saved swim. the change of thought patterns. you dont need anyone around to help you, you can do it all on your lonesome. every living minute, believe you can do it, and you will. during every testing moment, believe you can do it, and you will.

swim couldnt imagine taking any opiate ever again. in fact, swim has even gone as far to request alternative pain relief for surgery. swim knows if she puts any opiates inside her body, something in her brain will twig, and she will be off again on the moonlight express.

swim thinks the same applies for anybody. all you need is a strategy in place to remove other addicts from your everyday life, and the will to go it alone, without the loving comfort/escape of drugs.

[Naked Lunch]

Originally Posted by ex-junkie

in the nicest possible way, this frame of mind is your problem, and swiy wont escape with this. swim used to think like this herself, and thats why she wasnt successful for so many years.

tbh it was the positive affirmations that saved swim. the change of thought patterns. you dont need anyone around to help you, you can do it all on your lonesome. every living minute, believe you can do it, and you will. during every testing moment, believe you can do it, and you will.

swim couldnt imagine taking any opiate ever again. in fact, swim has even gone as far to request alternative pain relief for surgery. swim knows if she puts any opiates inside her body, something in her brain will twig, and she will be off again on the moonlight express.

swim thinks the same applies for anybody. all you need is a strategy in place to remove other addicts from your everyday life, and the will to go it alone, without the loving comfort/escape of drugs.

Yeah I know but all that makes up who I am, remove it and I'm just an empty shell. The H culture gives me identity, its been that way since I was 16 years old (I'm now almost 31). Like I said, I'm not a good candidate for successful rehabilitation.

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by Naked Lunch

Yeah I know but all that makes up who I am, remove it and I'm just an empty shell. The H culture gives me identity, its been that way since I was 16 years old (I'm now almost 31). Like I said, I'm not a good candidate for successful rehabilitation.

swim disagrees. swiy is an excellent candidate for successful rehabilitation. people who have been using for many years stand more chance of success than say someone whos only been using for 1-2 years.

the H culture isnt an identity. its just a mask that covers the fact you dont have an identity. its up to swiy to find himself.

never give up yo!

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Greta advice given

[roberto1888]

SWIM's got boxes off untouched subby's after a failed atempt on them last year. swim's back on the juice though after relasing fairly badly and cxan't get motivated enough to try bupe again.

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by roberto1888

can't

biggest mistake ever. you CAN. remember that.

[thebige]

Swim will use subbies to stave off acute withdrawal and if used that way you can quickly come off even high amounts very quickly....in 3-4 days with little or no discomfort..........and then he can pull a few weeks of clean time .......just trying to keep something in perspective
........if swim wanted to solely use Subbies to get a little high............he would use small amounts intranaseley........using to much up the nose seems to give swim the opposite effect.......and a headache fairly quickly.......
Q. for the SubDoc........has he ever had any reports from pts........saying less is more with Suboxone.Or has he ever heard of this concept???
Swim will weigh in with a miracles vote
I mean if you are going to continue to use to avoid the discomfort of withdrawal........and this solves that problem.........then take it for what it is and so be it.......
Swim is giving medicinal marijuana serious consideration

[Naked Lunch]

Swim has no identity other than Heroin, swim identifies with no one or nothing other than Heroin and Heroin related stuff. Its been that way for more than half swims life.
Its a hard habit to change considering swim doesn't really want to change. When swim makes efforts at getting clean and staying clean its more to please swims family than anything else but these days swim doesn't bother trying to please anyone other than swim. Swim is currently on subutex, again, swim was one of the first patients on subutex when it was released in Australia, swim was even one of the first to use Temgesic all those years ago so swim is very experienced with Buprenorphine and knows what it is and isn't capable of doing. See, swim needs to feel high a lot of the time, swim cant cope with being a square all the time, its just too much to bare.
Really, Swim doesn't think swim will be successful because of one reason...swim doesn't want to be successful in more ways than one because that would mean leaving Heroin behind swim and not living that lifestyle which swim loves so much.
Its very hard for swim to be clean when swim doesn't really want it. Although... a very small part of swim does want it in a way, the part of swim that wants it is the same part that hates being broke and hanging out.
See, everytime swim gets clean swim is left with a giant void in swims life, swims tried filling it with lots of different things and in the end they all fail miserably.

Swim agree's that subutex/temgesic/suboxone are all fantastic to get clean with but they aren't much good for maintenence in swims opinion as they aren't full agonists which a lot of people really need.
Then there's the definition of "clean", in swims opinion you really aren't clean unless you are opioid free and swim hasn't been opioid free in over 14 years so swims never really been clean at all. Swims tried it but craves 24/7 and doesn't last more than a couple of weeks before swim gets a hold of something to relieve the preassure of life, not even long enough for the opioids to leave swims system.

For all the reasons above, swim knows he will be on opioids for the rest of swims life, which is fine by swim, it beats being a miserable square in swims opinion!

[ex-junkie]

^@naked lunch:

has swiy considered going to see dr rhys henning in willunga? swims detox was over and done with in 9 days, and shes been clean ever since.

she was on opiates for a good 7/8 years of her life, and was just as delusional as swiy until she changed her mindset.

swims detox lasted 9 days, and on day 10 she went into hospital (covered by medicare), dr rhys henning medicated her with promethazine, chlonodine, temazepam, and started dosing her with tiny amounts of naltrexone every couple of hours. swim slept the whole day, had no withdrawals apart from feeling cold/the runs, and she went home the next morning and started a new life. this was october/november 2005.

the buprenorphine when used over a short period of time seems to add to the enthusiasm of staying clean/changing the mindset.

[Leftöver Crack]

not that this has anything to do with this thread but i had to comment, to the poster with the death's head skull...swim being an ARA skinhead wasn't surprised to see "northeast USA". guess drugs do bring all walks of life together...

[Naked Lunch]

Originally Posted by ex-junkie

^@naked lunch:

has swiy considered going to see dr rhys henning in willunga? swims detox was over and done with in 9 days, and shes been clean ever since.

she was on opiates for a good 7/8 years of her life, and was just as delusional as swiy until she changed her mindset.

swims detox lasted 9 days, and on day 10 she went into hospital (covered by medicare), dr rhys henning medicated her with promethazine, chlonodine, temazepam, and started dosing her with tiny amounts of naltrexone every couple of hours. swim slept the whole day, had no withdrawals apart from feeling cold/the runs, and she went home the next morning and started a new life. this was october/november 2005.

the buprenorphine when used over a short period of time seems to add to the enthusiasm of staying clean/changing the mindset.

Swims been seeing Rhys Henning for 10 years, in fact swim just saw him 2 days ago. Swims been on and off Bupe for about 5 years now.

Naked Lunch added 1 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

5 years is how long swims been trying at it this time, before that in 99 or so swim was taking Temgesic.

[ex-junkie]

Originally Posted by Naked Lunch

Swims been seeing Rhys Henning for 10 years, in fact swim just saw him 2 days ago. Swims been on and off Bupe for about 5 years now.

Naked Lunch added 1 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

5 years is how long swims been trying at it this time, before that in 99 or so swim was taking Temgesic.

swim knows people might disagree with this statement, but people are better off going onto methadone until the bupe is out of their system, then using bupe for a detox off of methadone, because methadones half life is half that of bupe- this in effect makes bupe twice as hard to taper off/cold turkey detox than methadone.

swim never had any success with buprenorphine maintenance tbh. she was using methadone intravenously when she quit too btw.

next time you see rhys, say a mysterious swimmer said to say hello. swim should really write him a letter. he was always encouraging her to get into music production back in the day, and now swims been studying since end of 2007, and even won a scholarship this term!

[Sib]

One thing is for sure sub detox is way worse then oxy detox.

[wazawaisuru]

Oh, don't do it. Just go through the w/d. Going on Suboxone is just out of the frying pan and into the fire. It seems like a miracle when you're in w/d, but then you realize that you're still an addict, just to a different thing. Just Swim's humble opinion, but...yeah, no--Suboxone is just as bad as all the other drugs.

[MrPhReeZ]

Originally Posted by wazawaisuru

Oh, don't do it. Just go through the w/d. Going on Suboxone is just out of the frying pan and into the fire. It seems like a miracle when you're in w/d, but then you realize that you're still an addict, just to a different thing. Just Swim's humble opinion, but...yeah, no--Suboxone is just as bad as all the other drugs.

i dont agree with you at all!!!!!!!!!!! who agrees with this guy?

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if swiy doesn't agree with OP it would be better to explain 'why' swiy doesn't agree;add swiy're own opinions next time

[Naked Lunch]

The only reason I take bupe is to combat cravings, it works sometimes but a lot of the time I feel I would be better being on Methadone maintenance.