Other - THE 5 MOST COMMON MISTAKES MADE WHEN Cold Water Extracting:

[RoboCodeine7610]

THE 5 MOST COMMON MISTAKES MADE WHEN Cold Water Extracting:

By RoboCodeine7610

1.Not cooling the solution properly:

Cooling the solution as much as possible without freezing is a key step when doing a CWE.Not doing so properly will increase the amount of Paracetamol/Acetaminophen that's left in your solution, and your liver would be too happy with that.If your problem with this is time, Robo tells me that putting the solution in a container with a large surface area like the one below and putting the container in the freezer will drastically reduce the time it takes to cool.Swim sees chunks of ice within 5-10min.




2.Using the wrong filters:

Some coffee filters have holes in them that can let APAP thrugh.These usually come in a red and green packaging and look like these:


The best filters to use are lab filters, but if these are not avaliable, do not use the kind of coffee filters that are cone-shaped.Use the ones that look like this:



These are the lab filters swim uses:


3.Doing only 1 filtration:

Although not harmful to your health, doing only 1 filtration will clog up the filter and make it take forever.The best way to do it, is to filter through something that filters quick.Swim uses tissue paper,kleenex works best, plus it doesn't tear easily.

This will remove the big chunks of APAP, making the final filtration with lab or coffee filters (Never use just tissue paper!) a lot smoother and quicker.This is how swim sets up his first filtration:


4.Not measuring ml.

Measuring how much water you use is very important.If you use too little, the yield will drop drastically and if you use too much,you'll let more APAP in, and doing this regularly could be pretty bad for your liver.In swim's experience, 100ml-150ml for 20-3o pills is more than enough.However, the pills have to be crushed nicely for that much water to be enough.

5.Drinking the liquid when it's cloudy:

If the solution is cloudy, that means there are undissolved solids present.Some people say it's just the binders and fillers but if they were soluble in water, you shouldn't be able to see them.If the solution is cloudy in any way, it should be filtered again until it's clear.

Please feel free to add more

Reputation Comments on this post:

	A good informative thread to further help the CWE process
	helfull to those who have never done a CWE, or those not fully familurized with the method
	Well thought-out and very informative
	good CWE tips, helped me clear up some questions.
	valuable addition to the topic
	Swim had no idea that those brown filters had holes in them.
	Good write up that answers many FAQ and describes the process in detail.

[honourableone]

A good thread to add to the CWE knowledge base. SWIM would say letting anything get around the edge of the filter paper in the funnel is an easy mistake to make, and making sure the funnel is stable above whatever container is being used is important (i.e. the funnel can slip if cups with brims that are too wide for it are used).

[hamsterdam]

swim ordered lab grade filters today.

Qualitative 11 cm filters with 20 - 25 micron porosity.

Quantitative filters are better, but cost double. swim's sure the qualitative ones will be fine, this isn't rocket science we're doing.

[RoboCodeine7610]

A good thread to add to the CWE knowledge base. SWIM would say letting anything get around the edge of the filter paper in the funnel is an easy mistake to make, and making sure the funnel is stable above whatever container is being used is important (i.e. the funnel can slip if cups with brims that are too wide for it are used).

Yeah, swim though about adding those things but thought it would be better to just write "don't drink if cloudy" period.If any APAP had been let through the solution would automatically cloud up, and even if some fell through and it satyed clear,it wouldn't be dangerous since if it dissolved that means that there isn't more than 14mg/ml.

That means that it wouldn't get dangerous till the ~250ml mark, and that would fall under the using the proper amount of water mistake.

swim ordered lab grade filters today.

Qualitative 11 cm filters with 20 - 25 micron porosity.

Quantitative filters are better, but cost double. swim's sure the qualitative ones will be fine, this isn't rocket science we're doing.

Okay, that's good.But don't get the best filters! When swim got the filters with the least porosity avaliable (it said "for fine crystalline") they took more than 3 hours to filter 100ml of liquid!Swim had to throw them away...

[hamsterdam]

Originally Posted by RoboCodeine7610

Okay, that's good.But don't get the best filters! When swim got the filters with the least porosity avaliable (it said "for fine crystalline") they took more than 3 hours to filter 100ml of liquid!Swim had to throw them away...

SWIM realized that.. He realized he wasn't trying to filter out proteins and crap.. and that the majority of people do this with coffee filters..

so he got the Whatman No. 4 filters, which are "fast" filters for filtration of coarse particles.

SWIM will flute the filter and pour the liquid in and see how it goes.


Dissolving pills is fine. SWIM drops 4 of his 7.5/750 hydrocodone/apap pills into a cough syrup bottle with 30 mL of water and leaves them in the fridge overnight. Saves a lot of effort. If swiy wants to do it faster, get a magnetic stirrer and stir at like 1000 RPMs for an hour.

[Tussipax]

Is SWIM right or wrong to dissolve pills in the water around 25°C instead of crushing up ?It gets on her nerves to crush them with a spoon, it's bored to crush sometimes over 30 pills.

[jon-q]

The main reason people do CWE’s is to remove the APAP, so it stands to reason the most common and harmful mistake that’s made when doing a CWE is ending up with a lot of (APAP) in the final solution. There can be several reasons why this happens including ~ Using to much water, poor quality filters, filter splitting when being squeezed, water not cold enough when being filtered, leakage around the filter, and the list goes on.
There is a very simple way to check for any remaining APAP} However you do your CWE (And there are many variations) the finished solution can simply be put back into the freezer, chilled to around 1c and providing you haven’t used a stupid amount of water in the initial CWE, any APAP that would be considered harmful will be visible in the bottom of the glass.

Try it, Dissolve 500mg of APAP in 200ml of water and chill it.
Which leads to the last point, practice on plain old Paracetamol tablets until you fell comfortable doing CWE’s. When Swim is experimenting with different methods he uses plain old Paracetamol tabs.
This is how swim got his new method of “siphoning and suction filtering” down to a tee, I will get him to post the details somewhere.
Q

[hamsterdam]

SWIM recommends splitting your water too.

If the intention is to use 100mL of water, DON'T dissolve the tablets in 100 mL of water. Dissolve them in 80 mL, filter, then use the other 20 mL to get what's left.. the reasoning is simple:

Say the residue absorbs 10 mL of water..

100 mL in, 90 mL out.. 10% loss

instead..

80 mL in, 70 mL out.. 12.5% loss

remaining 12.5% in 10mL water + 20 mL water = 30 mL water.. 20 mL back out thru the filter.. now it's down to a 4.17% loss.

[RoboCodeine7610]

Is SWIM right or wrong to dissolve pills in the water around 25°C instead of crushing up ?It gets on her nerves to crush them with a spoon, it's bored to crush sometimes over 30 pills.

Swim has found through trial and error that crushing the pills does make a considerable difference.So crushing is definitely recommended.

SWIM recommends splitting your water too.

If the intention is to use 100mL of water, DON'T dissolve the tablets in 100 mL of water. Dissolve them in 80 mL, filter, then use the other 20 mL to get what's left.. the reasoning is simple:

Say the residue absorbs 10 mL of water..

100 mL in, 90 mL out.. 10% loss

instead..

80 mL in, 70 mL out.. 12.5% loss

remaining 12.5% in 10mL water + 20 mL water = 30 mL water.. 20 mL back out thru the filter.. now it's down to a 4.17% loss.

That's true.Swim does this too, it's a pretty effective way to reduce the amount lost.But when you put the water through, make sure that you make it go through all parts of the filter and not just the middle.

[hamsterdam]

Why does crushing make a difference?

swim dissolved his hydrocodone/apap pills and they were just as good as when they were crushed.

(unless you're talking about the amount of time it takes to dissolve.. swim let them sit in the water overnight)

[RoboCodeine7610]

Well if you let them sit overnight then it's more than enough.But soacking them in water for 10-20min. is never as good as crushing.

Swim used to leave them to dissolve but one day he decided to give crushing a try, and it made a HUGE difference, 40% at least.

[hamsterdam]

Originally Posted by RoboCodeine7610

Well if you let them sit overnight then it's more than enough.But soacking them in water for 10-20min. is never as good as crushing.

Swim used to leave them to dissolve but one day he decided to give crushing a try, and it made a HUGE difference, 40% at least.

Ah.. well, as the top post says, patience is a virtue

[Censor]

Man, SWIM was using those exact red-and-green filters pictured above. It seemed to go OK and his liver didn't pack in but he's still relieved to get that heads up. TQ.

[Razorbladekiss]

Originally Posted by Censor

Man, SWIM was using those exact red-and-green filters pictured above. It seemed to go OK and his liver didn't pack in but he's still relieved to get that heads up. TQ.

My Dalek uses those exact filters too, he cant quite seem to find lab grade filters but will defently make it a prioirty.

However my Dalek would like to add hes been using those filters for over a year and had minimal problems with obvious pains and OD's. He also had a blood test looking for ACAP poisoning even doing a CWE of 32 8/500mg's THE NIGHT BEFORE - Stupid yes but hes sure of his method.

He also wants to say he puts 2 of the filters together and places a sheet of kitchen towel in there too. He repeats this method a second time. Better safer than sorry.

Too the OP - Awesome post cheers.

[RoboCodeine7610]

Man, SWIM was using those exact red-and-green filters pictured above. It seemed to go OK and his liver didn't pack in but he's still relieved to get that heads up. TQ.

Well when you look at the box closely, there's a circle with part of a filter drawn.And then you see little holes and a drop of coffee, which is actually meant to be like that so that the coffee gets a stronger flavor.

[RadioHead]

I use 2 cone coffee filters, it works fine, there is only a slight amount of APAP that makes it to the second filter.

RadioHead added 26 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Did i say I? i mean swim uses 2 cone coffee filters

[darkglobe]

Interesting thread. I've written about CWE techniques before, perhaps the two threads could be merged and someone (maybe robocodeine?) write one long, exhaustive CWE thread to be stickied?

Just a thought.

[RadioHead]

Sounds good to both me and SWIM.

[RoboCodeine7610]

Interesting thread. I've written about CWE techniques before, perhaps the two threads could be merged and someone (maybe robocodeine?) write one long, exhaustive CWE thread to be stickied?

Just a thought.

Yeah, why not? Post a link and I'll add them here.

[cra$h]

swim's used the same exact coffe filters as above, and has gotten pretty damn clear solutions. a little bit of APAP isn't going to kill you, a lot will. But the other day swim got a murkey solution, and this was the same set up, just the water wasn't as cold, and it took a while, and there were some filter problems (swim had to do this as discretely as posible, for he was near family, and, ya know...) but out of the 3000mg of APAP, the amount left in wasn't going to hurt. It was no more than maby 500mg, which is an extra strength dose if you take a tylenol. Point being is that this fear we have over APAP is a little over the top. Of course the whole puking thing is cut down with less APAP, but counting ml and using lab grade equipment is a little much. But I still like the advice, don't get me wrong!

[honourableone]

For some people, the threat of APAP is greater than others. From what you are saying, it sounds like you live in America and have access to Tylenol 3s, but SWIM doesn't have access to such good tablets and has a natural tolerance, so often has to filter out at least 10 grams of APAP (only pills SWIM has access to are 500mg of APAP with either 8 or 12.8mg codeine, and the onely one's with 12.8mg he has found have red colouring).

[RadioHead]

As the old saying goes: better safe than than dieing from a fucked up liver.

[RoboCodeine7610]

swim's used the same exact coffe filters as above, and has gotten pretty damn clear solutions. a little bit of APAP isn't going to kill you, a lot will. But the other day swim got a murkey solution, and this was the same set up, just the water wasn't as cold, and it took a while, and there were some filter problems (swim had to do this as discretely as posible, for he was near family, and, ya know...) but out of the 3000mg of APAP, the amount left in wasn't going to hurt. It was no more than maby 500mg, which is an extra strength dose if you take a tylenol. Point being is that this fear we have over APAP is a little over the top. Of course the whole puking thing is cut down with less APAP, but counting ml and using lab grade equipment is a little much. But I still like the advice, don't get me wrong!

Well an extra 500mg might not make a difference now, but if you do CWEs regularly it will end up affecting your liver.

As the old saying goes: better safe than than dieing from a fucked up liver.

Hehehe, yeah exactly.If you have better filters, why not use them???

[hamsterdam]

swim already has 700 - 770mg of junk dissolved in his 60 mL solution (swim have another post w/ the data), and that's with lab filters. Of course, that might be mostly fillers, who knows. But swim doesn't have a $100000 GC/MS lab to know for sure.

Counting mL is also important if you're making more then 1 dose. SWIM always makes a .5mg / mL hydrocodone solution (if the end product is slightly short on water, swim will add a squirt to make it even). The reasoning behind this is just for consistency. If you're making .5mg / mL this time, and 1 mg / mL next time and forget that you doubled the strength... well, you get the idea.

[smeghead]

SWIM's always used tissue paper folded over itself a few times, put inside of a plastic funnel.
SWIM's always had good results, clear liquid left over (practically like water), good amount of Codeine in the solution.

It does take a little bit of time however. (using generic 8/500 codeine and paracetamol tablets, such as the Winthrop Pharms ones...)
SWIM did this for a month or two, using 64 tablets daily.

Don't know how much paracetamol is left in this mixture, but SWIM has been off it for 9 days anyhow and is giving it (and his liver) a rest for a month