UK - Codeine and DXM laws on extractions?

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Ok, so Swim has recently done some CWE extractions of codeine from OTC painkillers and has a neat 10g bag of codeine phosphate powder. Swim has also done some DXM extractions from OTC cough syrup and has 2g of dxm crystals. Is swim breaking any laws possessing these? could swim be prosecuted for using or possessing them under any circumstances?

thanks.

[davestate]

Pure codeine is a class B drug. Risks are obvious, and since it's an opiate, prosecution would be very likely. They could even argue intent to distribute or morphine manufacture

DXM in powder might fall foul of the medicines act 1968, as DXM preparations are Pharmacy only medications

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by davestate

Pure codeine is a class B drug. Risks are obvious, and since it's an opiate, prosecution would be very likely. They could even argue intent to distribute or morphine manufacture

DXM in powder might fall foul of the medicines act 1968, as DXM preparations are Pharmacy only medications

It is not pure codeine, sorry i should have mentioned: it is about half codeine half paracetamol... would that be illegal?

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by Joe-(5-HTP)

It is not pure codeine, sorry i should have mentioned: it is about half codeine half paracetamol... would that be illegal?

I'd love to see this defence used by someone caught with a big stash of cocaine: "But m'lud, at least half of it's powdered milk, give me a break!".

I think the way UK law is codified, it's illegal to possess (without a prescription or medical licence) codeine other than in the form of pills that contain another painkiller as well (paracetamol/aspirin/ibuprofen) and no more than 12.8mg of codeine per unit. At least, this SWIMmer's never seen pills containing more than this available OTC.

Seems to be backed up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine#United_Kingdom

I suspect SWIY is technically breaking the law as soon as he starts to mess around with OTC codeine pills in any way, so yes, he's probably guilty of possessing a Class B controlled substance. But who's gonna know? Enjoy SWIYour codeine, SWIM's well jealous.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Reliable information and sensible advice given

[honourableone]

Routemaster flash is right about everything, and you could easily get done for manufacture of a class B/class A substance, but codeine seems to be a very personal thing for everyone - ie. it stays at home and isn't spread about, so unless you have special circumstances you aren't going to get caught.

You may or may not risk getting into trouble for the DXM, because it isn't technically illegal, but wikipedia seems to say that all arrests regarding this were were when it was being sold, for reasons such as "such as resale of a medication without proper warning labels". While this in a way seems to be a good thing, it does show that you can never know what laws it can be claimed that you are breaking.


A bit off topic, but I have some advice for dosing your powdered codeine. You don't know the exact ratio of codeine, paracetamol and binders, so you should work out your dose as a fraction of the the codeine you put through the CWE, so that way the only dose insecurity you have is how much codeine actually got through the CWE, like you would have anyway. I.e. you want 300mg, overall you put 1200mg through the CWE, so have a quarter by weight of the powder. Sorry if that was being obvious or anything, and have fun .

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by honourableone

Routemaster flash is right about everything, and you could easily get done for manufacture of a class B/class A substance, but codeine seems to be a very personal thing for everyone - ie. it stays at home and isn't spread about, so unless you have special circumstances you aren't going to get caught.

Prezactly - who's gonna set themselves up as a 'codeine dealer' when there's some guy down the street selling skag?

Good advice on the dosing, btw.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Sensible point.

[ConcertaXL]

The Medicines Act does not prohibit any possession of drugs (either P or POM)... It is a crime in the UK to sell Pepto-bismol, Bazuka for verrucas, Tixylix Cough & Cold, Piriton or 32 packs of paracetamol/aspirin outside of a pharmacy, but there is no possession offence committed if you bought a bottle of Tixylix for your 4 year old from a drug dealer... LOL. As dextromethorphan is not a Controlled Drug under the Misuse of drugs act as amended, it is not illegal to possess under any circumstances. The same applies to modafinil, tramadol, Viagra and other Prescription Only Medicines which are not controlled drugs. To supply is illegal with max penalty of only 2 years jail/fine (far less severe than penalties for even class C.) To possess is legal. Even Benzo's used to be legal to possess (except temazepam and rohypnol) but this changed and you can now be busted for having them without prescription.

Codeine in an OTC product (or even a POM such as Kapake, Tylex or Solpadol or pure Codeine Phosphate pills) is schedule 5 CD therefore possession is legal without exception. Once it is made into a powder it becomes schedule 2 class B, while an injectable codeine solution is schedule 2 class A. Therefore this is an offence to possess without authority, however prosecution is unlikely. The SWIMmer who suggested "morphine manufacture" or supply charges is misinformed, no way would Police attempt this charge and the conviction would simply not happen.

[davestate]

Originally Posted by ConcertaXL

The Medicines Act does not prohibit any possession of drugs (either P or POM)... It is a crime in the UK to sell Pepto-bismol, Bazuka for verrucas, Tixylix Cough & Cold, Piriton or 32 packs of paracetamol/aspirin outside of a pharmacy, but there is no possession offence committed if you bought a bottle of Tixylix for your 4 year old from a drug dealer... LOL. As dextromethorphan is not a Controlled Drug under the Misuse of drugs act as amended, it is not illegal to possess under any circumstances. The same applies to modafinil, tramadol, Viagra and other Prescription Only Medicines which are not controlled drugs. To supply is illegal with max penalty of only 2 years jail/fine (far less severe than penalties for even class C.) To possess is legal. Even Benzo's used to be legal to possess (except temazepam and rohypnol) but this changed and you can now be busted for having them without prescription.

Codeine in an OTC product (or even a POM such as Kapake, Tylex or Solpadol or pure Codeine Phosphate pills) is schedule 5 CD therefore possession is legal without exception. Once it is made into a powder it becomes schedule 2 class B, while an injectable codeine solution is schedule 2 class A. Therefore this is an offence to possess without authority, however prosecution is unlikely. The SWIMmer who suggested "morphine manufacture" or supply charges is misinformed, no way would Police attempt this charge and the conviction would simply not happen.

Medicines Act 1968 (c.67)
58
(1B) Where an order under this section includes provision by virtue of subsection (1)(e), the order shall specify such conditions as are necessary to secure that any person who is an appropriate practitioner by virtue of the provision may prescribe, give directions or administer only in respect of human use.]
(b)
no person shall administer (otherwise than to himself) any such medicinal product unless he is an appropriate practitioner or a person acting in accordance with the directions of an appropriate practitioner. Possession of Prescription Only medicines without a prescription is a serious offence

F4S. 58(1A)(1B) inserted (6.3.2002 for certain purposes and 1.4.2002 otherwise) by 2001 c. 15, s. 63(3); S.I. 2002/1095, art. 2(1)

Hardly seems irrelevant

Also, codeine is NOT OTC, it's pharmacy only. OTC sale is illegal

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by davestate

Also, codeine is NOT OTC, it's pharmacy only. OTC sale is illegal

So what's the definition of "over the counter", then? You can buy codeine products without a prescription in the UK, it's just that they're only sold in pharmacies - they are literally kept 'over the counter' and you have to ask for them, unlike (say) aspirin which is kept on the shelf for you to pick up yourself, on the basis that no-one's going to steal or 'abuse' aspirin.

It says here that tablets containing small amounts of codeine along with paracetamol/aspirin/ibuprofen are available "behind the counter" in the UK - this is the same thing as "over the counter", surely? SWIM buys them all the time without prescription, you just have to not look or sound like a junky when you ask for them.

[davestate]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

So what's the definition of "over the counter", then? You can buy codeine products without a prescription in the UK, it's just that they're only sold in pharmacies - they are literally kept 'over the counter' and you have to ask for them, unlike (say) aspirin which is kept on the shelf for you to pick up yourself, on the basis that no-one's going to steal or 'abuse' aspirin.

It says here that tablets containing small amounts of codeine along with paracetamol/aspirin/ibuprofen are available "behind the counter" in the UK - this is the same thing as "over the counter", surely? SWIM buys them all the time without prescription, you just have to not look or sound like a junky when you ask for them.

That's the definition, "P" medicines can only sold under supervision of a Pharmacist. OTC can be sold anywhere, they are two legally different catagories. Perhaps I'm being pedantic lol, but I thought it was relevant

[Dickon]

To clarify about Codeine being OTC in the UK: yes and no. No, you can't buy codeine pills OTC, but you can buy paracetamol (APAP) and codeine pills with a small amount of codeine in them (12.8mg of codeine phosphate hemihydrate in Solpadeine Max Strength is I think the upper limit - I see Routemaster has posted this above!), and codeine linctus (100ml or 200ml bottles containing 15mg codeine phosphate/5ml i.e. 300mg/600mg codeine phosphate per bottle) which is only available from the pharmacist him/her-self. As this contains no other active ingredients it is easy to consume a maximal effective dose. My cat says it's not even that icky.

As an aside: there are o.t.c. preparations containing morphine. The strongest containing 1mg/5ml anhydrous morphine, available in 100ml bottles, i.e. 20mg of morphine. The only other "active" ingredient is peppermint oil, but the stuff, so cat tells me, is not particular palatable, however 2-4 bottles are fairly easy to gobble down, but because the stuff contains sorbitol, one can get the runs, odd considering the stuff is market for diarrhoea!

For the last poster: nearly right. OTC, just means over-the-counter. P items - you correctly note are available only from a pharmacist. The other category is GSL items - i.e. general sale items available from shops other than pharmacies.

Dickon

[ConcertaXL]

davestate, quoting an irrelevant section of the Medicines Act 1968 does not impress me. It clearly refers to ADMINISTERING not possessing a medicine. It means to give a script-only medicine to someone else you need to be a medical professional. For example, paramedics can inject morphine into a car crash victim as they are "appropriate practitioners" and a mother giving her baby a doctor-prescribed antibiotic syrup is "acting under the direction of an appropriate practitioner" . The words "otherwise than to himself" means it is not illegal for any person to consume medicines themselves, with or without a practitioner's direction! So possessing a POM is NOT an offence.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great attitude and informative post.

[crunkgotti]

I'm curious as to why there is still paracetamol in swiyour codeine powder after doing a CWE.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by crunkgotti

I'm curious as to why there is still paracetamol in swiyour codeine powder after doing a CWE.

Inadequate filters. Not a problem swim has anymore, but back then he made a whole load before realising his filters were the wrong kind when he looked over robo's cwe thread.