Journal - Is this guy an alcohol addict? Help diagnose

[Sushi]

My best friend (the guy is of my age) was "accused" by his therapist of having an alcohol problem. He was shocked and denied. He tried to argue reasonably and prove he's not an alcoholic in any sense of that word (poor guy didn't know he scores an own goal that way). But the therapist was intransigent, "you have a problem, you are addicted to alcohol, and if you are not then prove it - do not drink till our next session". Oh well, my friend intended to spend a weekend with his girlfriend, drinking wine, eating and watching movies. So he politely told his therapist to fuck off. Now, let me present you his questionable drinking pattern in time span of last 3-4 weeks, as he was fortunately writing down every occasion when he was drinking and the exact amount he drank (due to his therapist pressure):

-the said weekend comes, he and his girlfriend share 3 bottles of wine in 3 days
-then he takes a break to prove his therapist he can stop when he wants to: no alcohol, no cravings, he's dry for 11 days
-then the guy has his birthday party and drinks 2 bottles of wine in 10 hours, *alone* (he has broken up with the girl in the meantime), he is drunk and suffers from a slight hangover next day
-7 days later he meets with a buddy, they drink 1 litre of wine, but he drinks of it more than his pal does
-5 days later he drinks a bottle of wine, alone (it's mid-week)
-2 days later he buys a litre of wine and drinks it on Friday and Saturday, alone again
-5 days later he drinks a glass o wine in restaurant to the meal eaten at noon with a family member, then 2 beers (0,33 l.) in the evening, at home, alone

It was 2 days ago. Another weekend has just come, he's completely sober and thinks he may buy himself a wine today, even if he is going to be alone again. And that's quite probable he will be - the guy is a loner, once upon a time diagnosed schizophrenic even. Before he broke up with his girlfriend drinking alone was very rare for him but happened sometimes. Sometimes he drank a glass of wine or two before noon but it was very rare too and he never "cured" his hangovers with alcohol. His drinking model was evolving over years towards regular drinking of moderate amounts of wine (during last year it was 1 bottle once or twice a week, sometimes 1 wine+1 beer when really lashing out with his girl). There were times when he drank hard liquor and he was sometimes getting really drunk then, not just buzzing like he does nowadays. Sometimes he was binging on weekends (partying). But this time is long gone. Last time he blacked out while drinking was 7 years ago. Primarily he was a pothead for many years, addicted to cannabis, wake and bake, cannabis and psychedelics lover holding alcohol in a slight contempt and never really considering his drinking to be a problem (or maybe once, 7 years ago).

His therapist's opinion probably was influenced by the fact that my friend got drunk for first time in a primary school and that alcohol was his second drug (after nicotine). He is a so-called polysubstance user, now trying to quit his cannabis addiction (or at least reduce his usage to occasional - last time he smoked 10 days ago) and not really doing well with a prospect a being sober till the end of his days: his current opinion is that he is not going to be a total abstainer, never ever no matter what. His experience with various psychoactive substances is extensive and he considers himself well trained with spotting signs of possible addiction developing. He was binging on cannabis and smoking 7 days a week whenever he had any bud to smoke. It doesn't look to me like he is replacing cannabis with alcohol. He doesn't seem to recreate his cannabis usage model with alcohol; at least this is how I see it. But do SWIY think his drinking may be a problem really? Does it look like he is on a way towards alcohol addiction? My buddy believes that someone who downplays him stopping nicotine, someone who says that it was least harmful of his addictions and easiest to combat and at the same time argues that smoking cannabis kills, doesn't deserve to be his therapist and should return to reading books before attempting therapy of addicts again. So he broke up his therapeutical relation with that guy after just 3 sessions. But maybe my friend is wrong and his therapist is right? Feel free to ask any questions you need to ask.

[cannabis-sam]

Well by my definition of an alcoholic, no, I'm no expert but I've read into it and what I would define as an alcohol is someone who has a physical addiction to alcohol, drinks constantly in the mornings etc. Moderate drinking as described, not on a daily basis etc doesn't sound like a true alcohol. If he is diagnosed a schizophrenic cannabis can make mental health problems worse, so that might be a reason to stop heavy usage or even completely, SWIM wouldn't advise anyone with a mental illness to smoke cannabis, although the same does go for heavy use of alcohol, although if he's not getting properly plastered then I doubt he'll do himself much damage.

All or nothing is easy for drinking and cannabis, smoking all the time or completely abstaining isn't that tricky, the most difficult one is having the discipline to do something occasionally like every week or two, without slipping into problematic use. The guy likes a drink or a smoke so he can let himself have a smoke or drink, he just needs to try hard not to slip into daily use.

[rokman nash]

A doctor friend of mine laid it out like this.

1-Have you ever felt the need to cut back on your alcohol intake?

2-Do you get annoyed by people who tell you that you drink to much?

3-Have you ever felt guilty about your alcohol intake?

4-do you ever have a drink upon waking(an eyeopener)?

If the answer is yes to one of the above it could indicate a problem.
If you answer 2 or more yes you probably do have a problem or will in the near future.

At some point my friend has answered yes to all 4 questions(# 4 was a yes, but only on the golf course)lol.

Good thoughts

Reputation Comments on this post:

	These points can be a very useful tool for estimating an addiction level
	SWIM can vouch for the addiction questions being standard in addiction assessments. Good call!
	Good questions for OP to ask.
	gives OP some solid points to consider.well done

[dadrone]

rokman nash,

SWIM answers yes to 1 emphatically, about everytime he gets a hangover.

2 is mysterious - SWIM catches hell from the lady when he drinks, at the bar (without her). SWIM never catches hell from the lady when he drinks at home or around her at the bar. So is this being annoyed that the old lady bugs SWIM about drinking or is it being annoyed because SWIM's old lady only nags when he drinks away from home?

Whatever - call it a yes, on those specific occasions.

3 - No. Never felt guilty becuase it has never affected SWIM's work of educational activities. Well... maybe SWIM skipped some classes in college but he did that plenty sober also.

4 - Yes... on the golf course. Never had an eye-opener at home.

Maybe SWIM has a problem but he is still a responsible and productive member of society. SWIM never drives also.

dadrone added 0 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

Woops - to answer that last question, no SWIM does not think your friend has a problem. Non-drinkers think that anybody who gets drunk ever is a raging alcoholic. Fuck 'em. There's a such thing as responsible drinkers, even if it entails responsible binge drinking from time-to-time.

[yaba]

Oh no !! My dog answered yes to all 4..
Think he needs to pack it in soon, hope he can..

He now drinks 8-16 cans of stella a day.

[dadrone]

yaba,

SWIM enjoys sobreity as much as he enjoys inebriation after periods of their respective opposites.

When you enjoy sobriety, for all its respectable reasons, it's really not that hard to refrain from abusing.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thanks swim will think about it when he is ready to quit
	I agree with the last sentence. SWIM finds it to be a valid point in SWIM's experience.

[Sushi]

Thanks a lot for your input and support. Especially for reminding my pal that this is the kind of question that one should really answer himself. That compact questionnaire proposed by a friendly doctor is actually very useful, as it appears to capture subsequent stages of addiction, not only defines its symptoms. Thinking about my friend's situation we came to a conclusion that one point/stage/symptom could be legitimately added, namely "do you ever drink alone?".

1-Have you ever felt the need to cut back on your alcohol intake?

2-Have you ever drank alone?

3-Do you get annoyed by people who tell you that you drink too much?

4-Have you ever felt guilty about your alcohol intake?

5-do you ever have a drink upon waking (an eyeopener)?

How do you like it now?

Now an update on my friend's situation. He performed "tactical reassessment" and came to realisation that the only efficient way of neutralising trauma caused by his would-be therapist is to remove all symptoms of risky drinking, i.e. drinking alone in his case. And if a rashly judgement of his therapist really bothers him, then negating it would be quite simple as my pal would answer yes to just 1 (long ago, short period) and 2 (yes, unashamedly until not so long ago). He says that knowing himself he probably checked once just how good is alcohol at "curing" hangovers. And if he says it happened once, it means that he could do it twice and not more.
So he stopped drinking alone - no more sipping wine while writing posts and letters and no more alcohol while surfing. And this reduced his intake to once a week in a company. He even kept an unfinished bottle of a "Galician Mulled Wine" (Grzaniec Galicyjski if you ever come to Poland) to see how hard will it be to refrain from draining it. The test was passed with little effort. Putting his drinking under control turned out quite easy again. But controlling his approach to cannabis is totally different story. This one requires either quitting completely (hardly conceivable, would like Mary to be his friend) or rethinking his use altogether and designing it anew, from scratch. Is it possible for addict to regain control of his favourite drug? Or is he just deceiving himself?

[ex-junkie]

the people swim knows who have alcohol problems, get the shakes when they go long periods without drinking. they drink when they wake up in the morning, and sometimes their drinking sessions last for days on end without sleep.

also they all state that alcoholism can sneak up at you out of nowhere. its good that swiy is taking steps to cut down, etc, because if swiy continued down that same route, the alcohol intake would have surely increased and swiy would have been heading closer to having a problem.

when swim says problem, she means its interfering with your everyday life/relationships. though swiy did mention his gf being funny about drinking at the pub, swim cant help but think this is because she doesnt trust him.

Reputation Comments on this post:

"Alcoholism can sneak up at you out of nowhere"-this deserves highlighting.Worthy input to discussion.

[Dickon]

I think addiction and alcoholism have a lot more to do with a state of mind than physical dependence. My cat has spent extended periods of his life drinking heavily and daily but never experienced physical withdrawal symptoms on quitting. The fact is, that to get to a point where you actually suffer physical withdrawals requires an awful lot of drinking over an awfully long time. To put it in perspective, when my cat went to (first-stage) rehab, of all the, I'm guessing about 30, people who came in as alcoholics, only one showed physical problems. He had been drinking about 2 bottles of vodka a day for 30 years. He had to be rushed to hospital, and from a harm reduction point of view, I think it's important to mention that withdrawal in such a case should only be done with medical supervision. It can be fatal, and in fact is so in an alarmingly high percentage of cases.

My feeling is that as far as Sushi's friend goes, he has got an addictive nature. I think it's good that he's trying to stop drinking alone. I also think it's not so much the amount and frequency of drinking that should be looked at, but more the attitude to not having it. I know that when I was drinking heavily I could go a day or so without at times, and although I'd not feel physically wrong (probably better if anything), there'd be a sort of small frison of something in my mind. It would not feel quite "normal". It was rather subtle, and nothing like a crack craving or a benzo or opiate withdrawal! More like an "I'd like a cup of tea" right now feeling. Sure I'd not melt down if there was no tea available, but I could do with one.

Anyway, I think we're missing the point somewhat worrying about the specifics of the alcohol issue. The "elephant in the room" is the cannabis. It's good that you've been upfront about this, and are not trying to say you don't have a "problem" with it, at least insofar as you feel you need it in order to function.

There is no universal answer to whether you will be able to change your pattern of use, except that in general it is not something most people seem able to do. There are exceptions, and I tend to think that those exceptions are the ones who make serious life changes. Problematic drug and alcohol use (and gambling, sex addiction, etc. etc.) are best seen as symptoms of underlying problems. Of course there is often a symbiosis between the problems and the drug/alcohol use: drug use can cause more problems which can lead to more drug use, etc.

I'd suggest, if this is possible, a period away from cannabis and alcohol. Don't see it as a permanent cessation; it doesn't have to be that. I'd say categorically that if you feel you need drugs to feel normal you have a problem. Also, whatever the underlying issues might be, it's hard to assess them when you're on drugs or drinking. A diagnosis of schizophrenia seems to suggest to me cannabis is probably not the best thing to use heavily here.

Well, I hope things work out well. If you do try this experiment, you could use DF to write about how you're getting along, which can be really helpful, and you'll be able to get feedback and advise from the rest of us.

All best wishes

Dickon

Reputation Comments on this post:

Insightful and helpful, some very valuable observations.

[purplehaze]

IMO to be an alcoholic you must drink everyday. Phaze has seen many alcoholics and thinks that the OP more likes to spoil himself rather than has to have alcohol at any time. Relaxing with a glass of wine on the weekend can be healthy as it relieves stress of everyday work. But again this is all IMO. I don't think OP is heading toward disaster by drinking wine once a week. If they feel that once a week is morally incorrect set standards they feel comfortable with. Phaze knows alcoholics who drink alcohol like water and wake up and drink.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Apt observations and good input all in all.

[bcubed]

SWISushi, understand that the prevailing view in the medical community (even though a therapist's "not a real doctor," as I love telling mine) is abstinance-based recovery for drug abuse AND that all drug use must be curtailed ("a drug is a drug").

Given that, and given that SIWY's therapist knows of his attempts to quit/moderate his cannabis use, I would expect most therapists to be extremely skeptical about "recreational" use of anything.

I'm unsure why convincing SWIYs therapist holds such importance. I, of course, don't know the backgorund here, or if there are certain "strings" attached to a clean bill of health from him or her. If not, and SWIY's use of therapist is volunatry, why not agree to disagree on this issue and focus on other life issues where you might be more amenable to help.

I can think of three reasons why one would need to re-think their relationship with alcohol:

1. One has a tedency towards chronic, heavy use, resulting in addiction and/or health problems,
2. One has periodic "binges" during which one behaves in a potentially unpredictible, insane manner,
3. One's drinking, while within certain social limits, causes psychic or physical distress, but one can't seem to quit in spite of problems.

I haven't seen evidence that any of these apply here (though I suppose one could call the friction with the shrink "psychic distress" if one stretched a bit).

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very true and interesting observations.

[Sushi]

Just a short update because all is down today:

@exjunkie

its good that swiy is taking steps to cut down, etc, because if swiy continued down that same route, the alcohol intake would have surely increased and swiy would have been heading closer to having a problem.

Roger that.
Pefectly valid point.

@Dickon

Well, I hope things work out well. If you do try this experiment, you could use DF to write about how you're getting along, which can be really helpful, and you'll be able to get feedback and advise from the rest of us.

Thanks a lot for encouragement, it was needed. Just like support my friend already felt and received from all of you. I will continue to share on his behalf.

@purplehaze

Phaze has seen many alcoholics and thinks that the OP more likes to spoil himself rather than has to have alcohol at any time.

Oh, this is so very true...


@bcubed

I'm unsure why convincing SWIYs therapist holds such importance. [...]
I can think of three reasons why one would need to re-think their relationship with alcohol. [...] I haven't seen evidence that any of these apply here (though I suppose one could call the friction with the shrink "psychic distress" if one stretched a bit).

Yes, we will elaborate on it - it requires some clarification.
Thank you all for confirming doubts about alcohol addiction diagnosis.

[Sushi]

First let me commend my buddy for progressing nicely with establishing control of his alcohol usage. And he’s doing really well indeed – good old times are back - he keeps alcohol at home and drinks it when he feels like. No disturbing urges, no cravings, it’s just fine. Ho got drunk once at the home party with his long not seen friend, but no mindless self-indulgence on his part since then, he stores alcohol and uses it when needed. It was needed once when he mixed wine+water as a sleep helper. And couldn’t sleep because he is to work again soon and it made him really uneasy.

Yes, he finally decided to step out from under protective umbrella of health & social care. Also too step out of the shell of social withdrawal. And his failed therapy –the one that gave birth to this thread- had as its set goal helping him with achieving this.

And it went almost well initially. Would-be therapist listened to his story and to his story of drugs abuse. Declared help with "improving quality of his life, knowing himself better and facing his personal monsters”. My friend was seeing a glimmer of hope. His therapist declared also that he sees total abstinence (sobriety) as an expected final achievement of the therapeutic process. My friend very openly warned his therapist then that it seems impossible to him and that he can’t even imagine himself as a total abstainer. Therapist didn’t seem discouraged and just urged him to promise that he will not come to him inebriated in any way. My buddy promised it solemnly.
But when he met his therapist for a second time, first question asked was “Have you been sober?” – “Then what are you doing here if you haven’t been completely sober between sessions?” My pal’s jaw dropped seriously down and stayed on the floor. It was not supposed to be like this. It was actually changing game’s rules after it has already started. And this focusing on alleged alcohol problem, not on cannabis addiction. Confusing, unexplainable and hurtful. Same scenario repeated itself at the start of their third session, but this time my buddy’s patience was pretty low, so he stood up and just left.

Now, my theory is that my buddy can be pretty hard to manage as a patient – he has a set opinion on many things, is somewhat educated and well read and his tolerance for scare tactics bullshit is rather low. And they (he and his would-be therapist) already had some clashes before parting their ways. When my pal heard a scary story on marijuana-the-killing-drug he just couldn’t help and laughed at the guy. Also, underestimating him quitting smoking after 19 years of heavy addiction is something he couldn’t forgive. Why are therapists specialised in helping addicts doing things like that? Is it just a lack of proper knowledge? Are they smokers themselves? Or maybe they feel expendable when addicts cope with their addictions without “professional” help?

Anyway, now he has only me (and I am just a home-grown psychologist) – and you, at the DF – to talk about his drugs abuse problems. Fortunately it turned out that he’s not so lonely as he thought, outside the Net I mean. There are actually people wishing to help him. And he seems determined to try and do something with his life. He told me many more things he would like to share -on his addictions, on sobriety, on dubious schizophrenia diagnosis, etc - but for now I decided to shed some light on his current situation and on reasons why he felt so devastated with a failure of his therapy.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Extremely well written and insightful posts, which will be helpful to many here

[jj lyons]

Honesty plays a big part in alcohol addiction;when swim first relised there was a problem with alcohol the damage was already done. Denial at the early stages was the major factter;not beliveing there was a problem.Once swim started to be honest then the change came;it seems that swiy knows theres isues with addictions my be not alcohol but its best not to be complacent

[purplehaze]

My opinion with the therapist situation is this. Each therapist has there own tactics with "helping". Most are assholes because they believe they have everything figured out. Or how else are they going to help you "the fucked up one"? They want you to stick with it and work on issues that they believe is the problem, obviously this doesn't mean that you think that anything they go on and on about to piss you off has anything to do with the real problem. Most therapist want you to stay with them and work with them regardless of how much they piss you off. Having a therapist is like a headfuck really. They want to screw with you and see how you react to basically every situation and then check mark shit until they figure out what's wrong with you.

My advice is just change therapist until you find one that you feel comfortable working with. But like i said most therapist are going to butt heads with you sooner or later just to see how you react when put in a certain situation. That's really what there job is.

Also next time you go to a therapist try to think a lot about what is said and why it's said before you react. Keep in mind, they don't know the answer to everything or really have the world figured out. They read body language and tone of voice to test the waters on different subjects. A therapist IMO is just a trained conversationalist. They pick up on things. Find one you feel comfortable with and try to be friends to work on issues.

[Sushi]

My friend thinks it is a good occasion to mention his little achievement because not so long ago he got rid of most harmful of his addictions. Let me share his success with you. And mention his other habits too. So...

...it's 150 days since he stopped nicotine (heavy addiction)

3 years since his last exposure to amphetamine (periodical binging, injecting and tendency to abuse)

6 years or so since his last exposure to opiates (never endangered)

9 days since last DXM. Ingested 7 times so far (about 520mg being average dose).

Few hours since last alcohol. Consumed regularly in small to medium amounts.
Habit is controlled. But it is habit and something to be controlled.

Few hours since last cannabis. Consumed regularly in small amounts. Heavy addiction. Ongoing process of regaining control. Smoked once a day in the evening recently. It means no more wake and bake. 300-400mg a week.
There is one thing my buddy's would-be therapist was quite right about: my friend is addicted to being high. He is juggling substances, switching habits, doing this and doing that, but when left for a week completely sober he gets frustrated and uneasy, he feels like there is something missing. And I really can't blame him. He knows well there is some obvious weakness and self-deception in all this. I only expect him to seek moderation and self-control in his insanity. And I keep telling him, "if you managed to quit cigarettes there is no addiction you can't quit; if you were able to do heroin a few times in a controlled manner and able to stop amphetamine abuse, and if you are able to refrain from drinking, then addiction to cannabis is a piece of cake, you can do with it whatever you want, quit or control, anything is possible".

[Ilsa]

so the therapist was helpful in the sense that she/he helped your friend define the overall pattern: switching around substances, just "staying high" basically.

i know i'm coming in a bit late on this thread, but i read most of it, and my question would be this: is your friend using out of boredom, depression.....both, or is it recreational? my cat has found that the motive behind use is a good way to guage where one is at emotionally with their use or addiction, and often it is a combination of boredom/depression, recreation and just plain old habit. when use become a way to escape the 'uneasiness' or boredom, there is danger ahead. i'm not saying that purely recreational use can't end in addiction, just that 'avoidance' use is more likely to end in it.

your friend has raised his self-awareness (writing down use is an EXCELLENT idea, imho) and is taking steps to reduce his use to a level that he personally finds acceptable and allows him to function in society. it's tough to find one's own way through an addiction/abuse experience, and society mandates an all-or-nothing approach that can make it more difficult and stigmatizing to even admit abuse issues to begin with--i hate this type of negative conditioning, as it basically undermines the courage one must find to admit to someone "hey, i think i may have a problem" which is often one of the more difficult parts of addiction.

overcoming problematic use on one's own requires a significant level of dedication and self-awareness. your friend deserves credit for that, and as you told him: if he's quit cigarettes he really CAN quit anything else. figuring out why he needs that high would be a significant hurdle to overcome, as often the feelings we try to ignore with use only come back and make themselves known in ever more dramatic ways.

tell him to keep up the self-monitoring, he's doing great there, and as i said, deserves credit for it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

This post contains some very wise thoughts and valuable observations

[Sushi]

Originally Posted by Ilsa

so the therapist was helpful in the sense that she/he helped your friend define the overall pattern: switching around substances, just "staying high" basically.

Yes, this was the only thing the therapist actually managed to do successfully - he helped my buddy to see his need to get high in a broader context and notice the possibility that he is a "dopamine junkie". And it's not like that he's staying high all the time. Not anymore, at least. But otherwise that guy was an epic fail. He created an illusion of hope, then destroyed it with deliberation and by making a hasty diagnosis of alcohol addiction caused more trauma than any good.

Actually some psychologist (or "almost psychologist" like the therapist my buddy met) can be very self-conceited. And careless. They throw their judgements not caring for proof, verification or consequences and are convinced they are holding keys to human soul and that their expertise is invaluable. For example, many of them are convinced everyone's problems would be solved if only every troubled human being had his own psychologist and could attend some therapy. You do drugs? You do it because you have mental issues and self-medicate. The idea that doing some drugs from time to time can be fun and beneficial is unimaginable for many (most) of them. They are products of their time and mainstream culture, trained to think a drug is a drug is a drug and they are all devilish killing brain-frying deadly chemicals. Aside form alcohol, nicotine and tranquillisers they are using themselves, of course. These are ok, government-approved, "part-of-the-culture" ways to fiddle with chemistry of a brain. They are deadly too but can be used in a reasonable way somehow. But say "LSD" in their presence and they got tremors.

Well, ok, enough of venting my anger and disappointment. I neglected this thread a bit lately while actually I should elaborate on true and complex reasons my friend does drugs. At least "true" in the sense "how we understand it" as neither him nor me are claiming to know for sure what those reasons are.

So, to answer Ilsa's question:

is your friend using out of boredom, depression.....both, or is it recreational?

It clearly depends on a substance, first and foremost. After talking with my buddy for many, many hours I came to believe that at the root of his need to ingest psychoactive substances is the very humane need to change his state of mind. Curiosity too, of course. The need of adventure and exploration, too. And the need to experience things that are "otherworldly", "supernatural", even "spiritual". Yes, the way I see it it's also an expression of some primitive spirituality - not evaluative term at all, my friend consciously and deliberately detached himself from all organised religion and religious systems and he happily admits his own "religion" is primitive and syncretic.

Psychological explanation would be that certain people (oversensitive, introvert, escapist, etc.) are more drawn towards satisfying their needs with drugs. The are others again who are attending churches and ceremonies, exploring the world and the universe, travelling, sailing, climbing, piloting spacecraft and so on. I admit, quite likely piloting a spaceship is not worse a trip than taking magic mushrooms. But not everyone will ever be allowed to do it. What's more some people actually are more inclined to explore their inner-cosmos and they will do it, will always feel the need to do it and will be interested in new ways and methods of doing this. You can't change it, that's the way that world goes round. And here's where virtually all of his experiments with psychoactives belong.

Yes, psychoactives fascinate him, beckon him, they are his passion and a hobby. He thinks about them a lot, reads and talks about them a lot, especially since he joined DF. People calling him addict because of this only prove their bias and prejudice and nothing else. Saying that all his experiments come down to self-medicating his depression unresolved traumas and mental instability is just an ignorant simplification.

Ok, I've started bitching at shrinks again, enough of that. Love to all psychologists and psychiatrist.

Then there comes another layer, when experiments become habits and ultimately addictions. My friend knows both and he knows very well that he is/was addicted and to what. When addiction starts the reason to use a drug not exactly change, rather it multiplies and gets complemented by more reasons. Drug is taken to feel good, too often, to pacify depression, for a time, out of boredom, to kill some time, out of habit, because one has no idea what else to do, etc. And because one is helplessly hooked - this was the case of his nicotine addiction. He chain-smoked because he couldn't find the will to resist his addiction and he had to stop altogether because he was not able to control his habit anymore. As for now, he stopped (nicotine, amphetamine) or avoided (opiates, alcohol) most harmful addictions. He tries hard to stabilise his cannabis addiction. And to control everything else.

But he has to cope with his need to experiment and explore too. And with an urge to get some mind-fuck from time to time (excuse me, but this word seems really appropriate). What happens when resisting this need? His current stance (and mine, based on experience) is that resisting and suppressing his urges make him only tense, frustrated and generally unhappy. There always comes that moment when an urge arises and dominates the landscape of his mind and ultimately obstructs everything. When he felt the urge to get high in past (alcohol sometimes would do, most often would not) he did nutmeg, deleriants, painkillers stolen from medicine cabinet, tranquillisers, you got the idea - basically anything at hand). Who knows from where these urges stem? I can only speculate.

Anyway it's part of his nature, and he doesn't want to fight himself, to be someone else. He would like to be able to function and utilise what he has at his disposal, his unfulfilled potential. So instead of trying to be an abstinent to satisfy ideology of some guy I suggest him to do research prior any forays into the land of psychedelia. I've been always persuading him to go for something possibly safe and funny, prepare his set & setting, ritualise the use. There shall be no disaster if he ingests LSD, MDMA, DXM, ketamine, psilocybin or mescaline once a month. Or anything else for that matter. "Everything in moderation, including moderation itself" was always the motto we shared.

This is why I'm fiercely against prohibition and the war on drugs. There are many people out there just like my friend and they will do ANYTHING to change state of their minds. They will take Datura, inhale gasoline, shoot up heroin, smoke meth or eat a pile of sleeping pills. Maybe their urges are something "abnormal" in nature, maybe they are the result of unresolved mental issues, maybe so what? Fortunately I have always been interested in drugs and I know my friend for decades so he's always been able to ask me and in result never got addicted to opiates or inhaled neurotoxic vapours. But he too had his share of sheer folly and prohibition is the sole reason he ingested some awful, adulterated and harmful black market shit.

Of course, there are dangers involved, inherent to this kind of hobby as his. It's possible psychedelic drugs stirring his psyche and waking up some latent psychotic process caused a mental breakdown he suffered when he was 21. He was diagnosed as paranoid depression then. But then again this is not something he could prevent, there was no history of mental illness in his family, no warning signs he's susceptible other than he was oversensitive, introvert and sometimes pathologically shy. But even now psychiatrist he meets is convinced he is not only a schizophrenic but also not even his depression is psychotic. He is indeed depressed, fucked up and has a pathological personality but I would look for the causes in pathological relations in his family rather, pointing especially at destructive and hostile father and overprotective possessive women.

Anyway, fiddling with psychoactives cannot be called "safe". But quite recently I heard the news about our common acquaintance that fell in love with climbing, was climbing and while climbing he fell and killed himself. Well, my friend is alive. Sure, when he's depressed he often tells me he would like to be dead but the fact is he is still alive. Depressed, immature and fucked up. But healthy otherwise and still alive. Call him cynic but for him this proves some "normal" hobbies are clearly more dangerous than doing psychedelic drugs.

There is more, I wanted to expand on some uneasy issues but it's already a very long post and I would actually really like you to be able to read it. The full moon is coming, soon after that I will write down his current state of usage/addiction meters.

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by Sushi

For example, many of them are convinced everyone's problems would be solved if only every troubled human being had his own psychologist and could attend some therapy. You do drugs? You do it because you have mental issues and self-medicate. The idea that doing some drugs from time to time can be fun and beneficial is unimaginable for many (most) of them. They are products of their time and mainstream culture, trained to think a drug is a drug is a drug and they are all devilish killing brain-frying deadly chemicals. Aside form alcohol, nicotine and tranquillisers they are using themselves, of course. These are ok, government-approved, "part-of-the-culture" ways to fiddle with chemistry of a brain. They are deadly too but can be used in a reasonable way somehow.

i understand the frustration here....dogma seems to reign over individual analysis of each patient. por ejemplo: when i was in undergraduate and went to the student health services, i barely got two sentences out before i was pronounced "bipolar II" only to find out from my therapist (at the school also) that TEN, count em, TEN other 19-23 year old females had received the SAME diagnosis that week......it was the diagnosis du jour and took YEARS to find a psych who would listen to my entire HISTORY and not just my current symptoms to diagnose ptsd.

So, to answer Ilsa's question:
It clearly depends on a substance, first and foremost.

oh, absolutely, but with the alcohol specifically, is it about recreation or numbing out?

Psychological explanation would be that certain people (oversensitive, introvert, escapist, etc.) are more drawn towards satisfying their needs with drugs. The are others again who are attending churches and ceremonies, exploring the world and the universe, travelling, sailing, climbing, piloting spacecraft and so on. I admit, quite likely piloting a spaceship is not worse a trip than taking magic mushrooms. But not everyone will ever be allowed to do it. What's more some people actually are more inclined to explore their inner-cosmos and they will do it, will always feel the need to do it and will be interested in new ways and methods of doing this. You can't change it, that's the way that world goes round. And here's where virtually all of his experiments with psychoactives belong.

this is not so much problematic....if anything, people trying to numb out want drugs that will do that: downers like alcohol, opiates, etc. the last thing i ever wanted when depressed was to trip!

Then there comes another layer, when experiments become habits and ultimately addictions. My friend knows both and he knows very well that he is/was addicted and to what. When addiction starts the reason to use a drug not exactly change, rather it multiplies and gets complemented by more reasons. Drug is taken to feel good, too often, to pacify depression, for a time, out of boredom, to kill some time, out of habit, because one has no idea what else to do, etc. And because one is helplessly hooked - this was the case of his nicotine addiction. He chain-smoked because he couldn't find the will to resist his addiction and he had to stop altogether because he was not able to control his habit anymore. As for now, he stopped (nicotine, amphetamine) or avoided (opiates, alcohol) most harmful addictions. He tries hard to stabilise his cannabis addiction. And to control everything else.

But he has to cope with his need to experiment and explore too. And with an urge to get some mind-fuck from time to time (excuse me, but this word seems really appropriate). What happens when resisting this need? His current stance (and mine, based on experience) is that resisting and suppressing his urges make him only tense, frustrated and generally unhappy. There always comes that moment when an urge arises and dominates the landscape of his mind and ultimately obstructs everything. When he felt the urge to get high in past (alcohol sometimes would do, most often would not) he did nutmeg, deleriants, painkillers stolen from medicine cabinet, tranquillisers, you got the idea - basically anything at hand). Who knows from where these urges stem? I can only speculate.

but this does look problematic, as you've explained, you and your friend have had to exercise keeping this under control, which is not an easy talk when painful emotions underlie the urge to use.


overall, imho, you're doing a good job of looking at the root causes in depth. keep thhinking and asking yourself and your friend questions when urges come up and what the motivation is for using.

[xxdan123xx]

Seems like swiy are justifing swiy addiction by saying that swiy are a productive member of society yada yada. Swim is in the same boat, you wont think so but in his opinion..w.e. ... any way swim is a functioning heroin addict. He can go some time without though he gets sick, he supports his habbit and his life and is happy has a sgnificant other whom he uses with and although right now he is trying to kick his life with heroin has notbeen terrible. He is still an addict. The question is are you willing to say fuck it im an addict i get by or will you make a big thing of it. Or swiy can quit.

[Sushi]

Originally Posted by xxdan123xx

Seems like swiy are justifing swiy addiction by saying that swiy are a productive member of society yada yada.

Quote please.

[judemchugh]

Base on the days of interval of your friend's drinking habit, yes it is confirmed that he is an alcoholic. Talk to him and give advices regarding the harmful effects of alcohol to the body. Introduce him to groups which can give him counseling. Also, you can give to him the details of this forum in order to be aware of the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption.

[Sushi]

The full moon came and is slowly passing away. My disturbed friend didn't do anything crazy even though he had certain plans but ultimately it turned out he doesn't need any particularly intensive experiences at the moment. Then let me present you how do his addiction/usage counters look like now:

- 197 days since he stopped nicotine, it's over 6 months now

- 3 years since his last exposure to amphetamine, about 4 years since he stopped abusing it

- did codeine twice recently; was it worth it? not really; opiates in general are not his favourites and his exposures to them still count less than 10 times in total (his first time was morphine injection in 1991)

- did DXM two more times (525 and 555mg), in total: 9 ingestions since January

- cannabis: what he managed to achieve is a transition from a full-blown addiction to smoking a pinch once a day, in the evening or late afternoon. Not that he always has anything to smoke, so "a day" is not exactly daily. Anyway, more than a month has passed and he still manages to keep his usage at the same level.

- alcohol: he got drunk on 1.04, then on 26.05. Attended one small party in May too and was a little tipsy after drinking some vodka + juice there. At the moment he buys one bottle of red wine a week and drinks 50-70ml a day, usually after a hot meal and sometimes after a supper too. He met with a girl 3 times and every time they were drinking wine (one bottle for each of them).

I talked to him today and told him that his drinking is excessive and that alcohol is harmful to his body and mind. He was grateful.

oh, absolutely, but with the alcohol specifically, is it about recreation or numbing out?

Yes, Ilsa, I remember about your question and soon I will elaborate on reasons why my buddy is using alcohol and why he has to monitor his appetite for it.


PS.
I'm afraid there is some poor grammar in this post. It's early morning and I'm bit tired after sleepless night. Sorry.

[Sushi]

My friend had today a little glimpse into addictive potential of benzodiazepines.
Yesterday, an overflow of negativity, hate, frustration and despondency almost choked him after a little family reunion. Today before entering the same environment he decided to test 0.5mg of Alprazolamum (Xanax).

Oh, well, during the meeting, for about 2-3 hours he was calm and laid back and, believe me, for him being like that is the most unnatural condition. His mind remained very clear though, not clouded in the slightest bit.

Then he became a little sleepy, drank one gin with tonic and after returning home smoked a pinch of cannabis and drained an energy drink. Very nice day, actually. His mind is not giving him a hard time today at all, no obsessive thoughts, no destructive feelings. What a relief...

Actually this is the reason there is no clear-cut demarcation line between numbing out and recreational drinking in his case. His social phobia and free-floating but constant anxiety are the reason that drinking with other people (recreational and socialising) is always sedating AND fun, hand in hand.

Paradoxically, when he was drinking alone it was generally more recreational in nature because there was no anxiety related to encounters with other people. Actually even meetings with people that are close to him & very friendly are sometimes making him tense, so sipping alcohol with them is not lacking this need for suppressing his nervous system's over-activity.

And this is the reason why he has to watch his alcohol usage closely. He simply can't allow himself to rely on alcohol while dealing with stressful conditions and deficiencies of his nervous system. However I got the feeling he is very aware of his condition making him vulnerable to addictive properties of CNS depressants.

He must be vigilant against their temptations because he likes to drink and would like to be able to drink for a foreseeable future. He lost control over nicotine and he will never be able to smoke a cigarette again without the risk of a full-blown relapse. Loosing control over alcohol would mean the same. He doesn't want it and I don’t want it either because I really like to have a drink with this guy, from time to time.

[ex-junkie]

dont swap the witch for the bitch.