can't sleep! (won't sleep?)

[jack hdfk]

hello

as i have mentioned elsewhere (tho you prolly dinnunt see it) my dog ralph (there he is, just up there, with his son: storm) is attempting to come off heroin using methadone. he's already come off before using subutex so he's not completely averse to switching to that if push comes to shove (he also has some ibogaine stashed away somewhere - he's a very resourceful little chap). he is on 30mls and is reducing as i type (he started on 80)

anyhoo, enough background. his trouble is he just can't get to sleep, he's sitting here with me now (he is very clever: but dogs can't type!) and it's going on for 2am (still early) and he's not in the least bit tired and he was at work all day and has a full day tomorrow (this is one smart doggie)

he's tried valerian tabs (dinnunt touch the sides), nytol (ditto), melatonin tabs (you guessed it: same again) and is running out of things to try. he doesn't particularly want to start messing around wiv benzo's as the whole idea is to end up clean(ish). just in case you are wondering, he communicates all this to me using intricate doggie eyebrow signals.

can anybody help my poor likkle doggie?

[rhudson]

Originally Posted by jack hdfk

hello

as i have mentioned elsewhere (tho you prolly dinnunt see it) my dog ralph (there he is, just up there, with his son: storm) is attempting to come off heroin using methadone. he's already come off before using subutex so he's not completely averse to switching to that if push comes to shove (he also has some ibogaine stashed away somewhere - he's a very resourceful little chap). he is on 30mls and is reducing as i type (he started on 80)

anyhoo, enough background. his trouble is he just can't get to sleep, he's sitting here with me now (he is very clever: but dogs can't type!) and it's going on for 2am (still early) and he's not in the least bit tired and he was at work all day and has a full day tomorrow (this is one smart doggie)

he's tried valerian tabs (dinnunt touch the sides), nytol (ditto), melatonin tabs (you guessed it: same again) and is running out of things to try. he doesn't particularly want to start messing around wiv benzo's as the whole idea is to end up clean(ish). just in case you are wondering, he communicates all this to me using intricate doggie eyebrow signals.

can anybody help my poor likkle doggie?

If you don't consider zolpidem (generic Ambien) a benzo, then ask for it. It is a z-drug which is very similar to benzos but somewhat less habit forming. They give this out to everyone as it is the first-line treatment for insomnia that doesn't respond to OTC stuff. If your dog can't get a script there, ask elsewhere. Some doctor will provide it. If still no luck, well, there are other sources...

If you can't get the zolpidem or don't want it, then your dog can try something else like Kava perhaps, but SWIM has no experience with that. It is supposed to be sedating at high doses. Also your dog should be aware that he can take quite a bit more of the Nytol than is recommended on the package without any serious issues. Research safe diphenhydramine does (100 mg will not kill him). Mixing melatonin and diphenhydramine is also safe.

Good luck.

[Rainbowzz]

Actually over zolpidem SWIm had good experiences with zopiclone, another z-drug. Its got a short half life, so it helps to get you to sleep in the first place, but only lasts for about four hours, so it doesnt make you groggy the next day. Should still only be taken for short times, but they actually say you can take it as long as you need it, much like ambien.

[oxynomo]

During swims recent withdrawal he tried all of the items listed above [ambien lunesta valerian melatonin l-tryptophan]none worked.At one point around 14 days 5 hours sleep Total.Swim managed work but not much else.He stuck it out then finally started getting little bits of sleep here and there.If he had to do it over he would try and get some sort of benzos.Sleep will come eventually[almost 2 months for swim] Best Luck o

[teddybearpicnics]

Now this might not be the case with your doggie. But for this little teddy bear it is more of a mind game...your little pooch is so used to being opiated and falling asleep like a little baybe, and swim totally used to be in the same boat. This teddy tried everything, alcohol ::fell asleep but woke up the second the alc wore off:: benzos :ure they work but they are just as habit forming:: seroquil ::might as well take a baseball bat to the head:: and wanted to go a route that wasn't as narcotic...

Enter melatonin, this drug does not make you drowsy or feel like you are going to pass out, but if you take it with the mindset that it is going to make falling asleep natural and don't worry that it isn't going to work, it really does. Take it and watch TV for about an hour, then lie in the little doggie bed and just be relaxed, it might take a half hour or more but eventually it works with the natural sleep wake cycle of the brain ::teddy can't believe that he still has one after bombarding his body with heroin all these years:: Now this is just this teddybears experience, he can't say it will work for sure, but give it another go.

Also...Rameleton :p??:: is another non-narcotic non-habit forming sleep aid that is supposed to work. Swim is in a test experiment with his local hospital to see if rameleton works to help people sleep that have anxiety attacks/insomnia during the night. He doesn't know if he got a placebo pill or not, because it isn't supposed to have any direct effects other than working with the sleep.wake cycle in the brain. But even just taking it and thinking that it could be real has helped with swims insomina. It's amazing what the brain can do, and it is definitly more of a mind game, at least this teddy thinks so. Hope he could help with your poochies problem ;]

.teddy

EDIT: Oh yeah, Ambien is a great sleep drug, and isn't really habit forming other than mentally, once again, the mind will make or break you. There is also an AmbienCR that is supposed to help you sleep better as it is dual layered wim thinks!:

[jack hdfk]

thanks guys, ralphy is wagging his tail for joy from all your help!

thanks for realising that ralphy's problems lie with the grogginess thing, he forgot to mention it, silly ralphy! obviously he can knock himself out (say with enuff nytols, although they got a wicked tolerance) but he needs to wake up the next day!

ralphy recently came home with two peyote cactus. he isn't half a nawty boy! unortunately they'll take about 10 years to grow big anough to do owt (being a doggie he doesn't always think these things through!) still, he'll post if anything exciting happens.

anyone have any other ineteresting hallucinatory suggestions? or shall i tell ralphy to start another thread?

jack hdfk added 0 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

thanks guys, ralphy is wagging his tail for joy from all your help!

thanks for realising that ralphy's problems lie with the grogginess thing, he forgot to mention it, silly ralphy! obviously he can knock himself out (say with enuff nytols, although they got a wicked tolerance) but he needs to wake up the next day!

ralphy recently came home with two peyote cactus. he isn't half a nawty boy! unortunately they'll take about 10 years to grow big anough to do owt (being a doggie he doesn't always think these things through!) still, he'll post if anything exciting happens.

anyone have any other ineteresting hallucinatory suggestions? or shall i tell ralphy to start another thread?

[Dickon]

I'm just wondering how quickly you (your dog) are (is) withdrawing. My cat recently quit 225mg methadone or so, and did it reasonably quickly; he cut down by about 5mg a day, and so naturally towards the bottom end of the taper and after he stopped he didn't get a vast amount of sleep. I have written about this on the "Screaming in the Night Air" thread in this section. I was barking crazy at the time, and certainly the initial posts are hard to read, but it's something to look at if you're bored! I used valerian, chamomile, and non-sedating antihistamines, but nothing really helped that much except for clonidine which helped with the withdrawals but again didn't have a noticeable effect on sleep. Your best bet is to simply ride it out if you ask me.

Sleep will come, eventually. I often propose on here my theory of "sleep gravity". Simply put, eventually the need for sleep will overcome the sleep-deprivation of withdrawal. The body can stand a certain amount of lack of sleep, but eventually tiredness will get the better of you.

Well done getting from 80mg to 30mg. That's more than halfway there! Be careful with the ibogaine. It can be fatal, and you should certainly read up on it and get a medical check (heart especially) if you plan to use it. There's a "how to guide on opiate detoxification" thread I've started at the top of this forum. I included some ibogaine info there, with links to other threads. There's also a list of supplements etc. that might help with withdrawals and detox schedules. I'm not sure if any of that will help, but it might!

One thing my cat tells me is that life is infinitely better the other side of a withdrawal. If you are to come through this it will take some balls, but it's well worth it. You can even try my cat's strategy of trying to enjoy the withdrawal! It wasn't 100% effective, but he tried to laugh even as he suffered!

All best wishes and strength

Dickon

[jack hdfk]

i get ya

ralph usually quite likes withdrawals, believe it or not. trouble is he's working now (in a library of all places) so he can't really 'live and let live' as it were.

still, no need to get too upset, ay?

[rhudson]

Originally Posted by jack hdfk

i get ya

ralph usually quite likes withdrawals, believe it or not. trouble is he's working now (in a library of all places) so he can't really 'live and let live' as it were.

still, no need to get too upset, ay?

Raph has to be kidding me... enjoy w/d? Sadistic. Anyways listen to Dickon about the Ibogaine as it can kill even when taken in a real clinic. This is usually because of pre-existing heart conditions which of course you could have without knowing.