"What Happens When We Die" by Sam Parnia

[pinholeburn]

I heard this guy on NPR last week and afterward had to read his book, which I managed to do and ended up reading it almost non-stop in one day.

All I can say, as it relates to why anyone here might be interested, is that the book examines near death experiences and the associated philosophical and metaphysical consequences to man's understanding of the mind-body relationship, reality, God (or nature), physics and the Universe, if one were to accept the data from NDE "survivors" as truthful proof and in this case this data having been compiled using the scientific method.

As anyone here may have concluded through personal observation or experience while on various "drugs", while the mind (consciousness) certainly can and does reside in the physical brain by default, we know it can also roam and go elsewhere and in inexplicable or indescribable ways.

Parnia likens the brain to a TV set that functions as an instrument that receives signals. We're all born with a TV set (a physical brain), sometimes some work better than others and by different measures. Sometimes they break down or become faulty. But when the TV finally turns off (when you die) what happens, metaphorically speaking, to the signal that made use of this instrument?

Here's one passage from the book, a NDE experience as related by a survivor:

"At that instant I was in a different level. Here all was soft gold, including me...All of life's fears and worries seemed so unimportant, so absolutely nothing to worry about, and all our fearful fretting seemed so unnecessary...I was aware that behind me stretched infinity, that all the people I'd ever known, knew now, and even would know were there, all made out of this golden 'light,' all made of the same stuff, and so truly we are all one. I saw this liquid-golden ocean out of which each person rose, made of the ocean, in their own individual shape, but all one originally, basically."

And below is a small portion from a woman who was clinically dead and came back after suffering internal bleeding from an ectopic pregnancy:

"I was told by those in spirit that I had been pregnant. I did not know that I had been pregnant before this; I just had abdominal pain. I was also told that the sprit of the child had initially consented to be born and then changed its mind...that it had experienced a very traumatic life before and just could not face life again just yet."

When I read these passages I was totally blown away. Through the use of various "means" over time I had achieved the same vision or understanding and knowledge as described above about these exact aspects relating to the nature of life and the state of consciousness in both the pre and post physical manifestation of a human life. I think one can achieve this knowledge through the prolong practice of meditation, but certain drugs seem to act like a shortcut.

At any rate, we all have different levels of education and knowledge of vocabulary. This means we may have a feeling about certain knowledge, but not the ability to articulate it well to other people verbally. Or one has the ability to articulate it, but depending on the level of one's education and knowledge of vocabulary, perhaps the meaning being expressed is similar, but the description varies.

Personal pre-conceptions related to one's belief systems, to a religion for example, will of course further color ones interpretation and description of these kinds of visions or knowledge.

But getting back to the book, it goes places that are really on the fringes of commonly accepted, conventional wisdom. So like many fringe notions it may at first sound out of the ordinary, but eventually becomes part of the common wisdom or knowledge. People are always more accepting of an idea when more people subscribe to it. That's just human nature. But when it's new, it takes courage to accept.

Has anyone else read this book?

[thirteenthfloor]

I haven't read that book, but i've seen some like it. If you are really interested in the subject you should definetly read DMT the spirit molecule by Rick Strassman. It deals mainly with DMT and other hallucinogens, but it has ties to many of the same subjects, it shows the simularities of DMT(which naturally occurs in the body and spikes near the time of birth and death) and NDEs. It is well written and is the only legal current clinical studies being done on DMT. (there is a movie that goes with it too, but im not sure if it is out yet). But you're right the whole subject NDEs and everything is really interesting, in my opinion this is exacly where science should be heading.

[ATWA]

Look. Nothing happens when you die. When you die you become dead. There is no you left. It is over.

[thirteenthfloor]

I mean thats possible you know its materialism, but dismissing everything else so blatently is just fucking ignorant. The point is no one knows anything about what happens after we die, anything anyone says is just speculation. Materialism may be the most probable idea, but dismissing everything else is just as bad as saying we go to heaven to live with a old man with a white beard named god.

[oggy]

Originally Posted by ATWA

Look. Nothing happens when you die. When you die you become dead. There is no you left. It is over.

I really wish that was true but unfortunately I think your wrong.

[abraham]

Originally Posted by ATWA

Look. Nothing happens when you die. When you die you become dead. There is no you left. It is over.

Unfoutunatly swim wish's that were not true but swim is afraid it is.

[Decstar]

Originally Posted by abraham

Unfoutunatly swim wish's that were not true but swim is afraid it is.

You must seek your own path to gnosis (enlightenment). When you have found it, you will know that there is nothing to be afraid of.

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

[seeingred]

Originally Posted by ATWA

Look. Nothing happens when you die. When you die you become dead. There is no you left. It is over.

It's hard to think like that when there's more and more actual evidence of life after death. EVP's aren't the most reliable source although I have heard some and it seems there could be an otherside. Also, astral entities seem to exist. OBE's and astral travel and the ability to dreamwalk. I guess basically all the paranormal and supernatural phenomena couldn't ALL be explained. I think accepting something as an entire truth is impossible. Just because man hasn't attained enlightenment doesn't mean it's not acheivable. I also wonder about other paranormal phenomena such as levetation, Ouija Board's do seem to bring about Ghostly visitors. Telekinesis & telepathy is starting to get easier it seems for the avg. person. Just thinking, there's a lot to take into account before you write all of it off as 'Facts'. I've been contemplating theories such as that we create a good amount reality and that a lot of it is in fact subjective.

[pinholeburn]

Originally Posted by thirteenthfloor

I haven't read that book, but i've seen some like it. If you are really interested in the subject you should definetly read DMT the spirit molecule by Rick Strassman. It deals mainly with DMT and other hallucinogens, but it has ties to many of the same subjects, it shows the simularities of DMT(which naturally occurs in the body and spikes near the time of birth and death) and NDEs. It is well written and is the only legal current clinical studies being done on DMT. (there is a movie that goes with it too, but im not sure if it is out yet). But you're right the whole subject NDEs and everything is really interesting, in my opinion this is exacly where science should be heading.

You're exactly right. Parnia agrees. He also talks about the role of the NDMA receptor in neurons. If you know what that does already you can guess where he goes with it.

Anyway, as for the skeptics, all I'll say -- to use a cliche -- is if you've never "seen the light" then you won't get any of this.

Unfortunately, many of us are either born into or later choose to live within a false and narrow belief system, which while providing comfort and solace in life, a diminished fear of death, as well as a structure to live by, never actually exposures one to reality through greater awareness.

I agree with many Christian morals, and certainly there is wisdom in many Biblical parables, but everytime some prays to Jesus, for example, they just cemment in their minds harder and harder a falsity that will only ever become stiffer and more solid, making a breakthrough and seeing actually reality and truth impossible in their lifetime.

[Decstar]

"At that instant I was in a different level. Here all was soft gold, including me...All of life's fears and worries seemed so unimportant, so absolutely nothing to worry about, and all our fearful fretting seemed so unnecessary...I was aware that behind me stretched infinity, that all the people I'd ever known, knew now, and even would know were there, all made out of this golden 'light,' all made of the same stuff, and so truly we are all one. I saw this liquid-golden ocean out of which each person rose, made of the ocean, in their own individual shape, but all one originally, basically."

I think that this person is describing a gnostic experience or gnosis. The realisation that we are all one and we are all divine and part of an elaborate drama which is played out for eternity. We are all actors in this drama, but we get so drawn in to acting this role that we forget who we really are and we begin to believe that we are that isolated ego locked up inside a bag of skin. A new born baby can't tell the difference between the world and the way it acts upon the world, which of course is the way it really is. I know very well that Decstar is just a big show and an act. Gnosis is the recognition of the devine within oneself. That is good news that Jesus tried to tell us. This is the true gospel. But this knowledge has been surpressed by tyrants who created a monarchy in the church and wouldn't allow democracy in the Father's Kingdom. You should read the gnostic gospels. I would recommend the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Philip. It is a very different account of the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you." Gospel of Thomas, verse 3.

[Heretic.Ape.]

The Holographic Universe has an interesting section and explanation of such phenomenon if you are interested in other scientific paradigms that are attempting to integrate those areas that fall outside of current materialist scope. A very good read. I'll be interested to read the book you're talking about.

[Heretic.Ape.]

Originally Posted by ATWA
Look. Nothing happens when you die. When you die you become dead. There is no you left. It is over.

It's kind of like reading lots of peoples trip reports, which together form a very consistent picture of similar experiences, and then saying "I've never taken that drug, but I know nothing happens if you do."
I know you're hell-bent on staying within your nihilistic paradigm, and that's fine whatever floats you boat, but to simply make definitive statements on something that there is no definitive information on is just deluding yourself into believing you are just so damn smart that you know what nobody can possibly know for sure.

There is no philosophical standpoint more boring than pop-nihilism, seeking not even to explain itself but mumbling over and over like some morose mantra "there is nothing". At least expound on what leads you to that conclusion. Until I see a nihilist actually explain the tenants of their nihilism--something none ever seem to do--I will assume they are just bitter and are taking refuge in a laziness that affords them an unearned sense of mental superiority.

I don't mean to be inflammatory, I'm sorry if it seems I'm picking on you ATWA, I just want to goad you into thinking about this mental/emotional dead end you've found some cold comfort in. In my experience, nihilists simply haven't thought things through.

Maybe I'll start a thread on what I will deem the Leap of Faith from Existentialism to Nihilism.


h.a.

[Nature Boy]

Originally Posted by Heretic.Ape.

It's kind of like reading lots of peoples trip reports, which together form a very consistent picture of similar experiences, and then saying "I've never taken that drug, but I know nothing happens if you do."
I know you're hell-bent on staying within your nihilistic paradigm, and that's fine whatever floats you boat, but to simply make definitive statements on something that there is no definitive information on is just deluding yourself into believing you are just so damn smart that you know what nobody can possibly know for sure.

In defence of ATWA, I would say that there's plenty of evidence for his/her claims. Human consciousness is a product of the living brain. Once the brain stops working, it would be most reasonable to think that consciousness ends. From a logical or scientific standpoint, you're the minority here.

Perhaps ATWA's words may have seemed blunt but sugar-coating it isn't easy. Personally, I don't understand why people think of this kind of ending as being negative. It's neither negative or positive. It is just is.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well argued.

[oggy]

Sometimes I wish I took the simple path of a nihilist or an atheist but I think I'm in too deep now.

[pinholeburn]

Originally Posted by oggy

Sometimes I wish I took the simple path of a nihilist or an atheist but I think I'm in too deep now.

Well related to expanding on the topics covered in the Parnia book, another that just came out this summer from Oxford University press, and which is also written for the layman, is called "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness".

I have it, but have not started to read it yet. Basically the study of quantum level physics and the study of conciousness are at this very present moment being interlinked by many scientists and the realization seems to be occuring that consciouness exists at the quantum level. Once you understand some basics of quantum mechanics, to me, it sure explains a hell of lot about the mind and some of the so called "gnostic" experiences I've had when partaking in certain susbtances!

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by pinholeburn

Well related to expanding on the topics covered in the Parnia book, another that just came out this summer from Oxford University press, and which is also written for the layman, is called "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness".

Uh oh...a book with the words "quantum", "enigma" and "conciousness" in the title...bullshitometer needle rapidly heading into the red...

Routemaster Flash added 993 Minutes and 42 Seconds later...

Right, well I got a rep-neutral comment about this in my CP, so maybe I should expand a little...

Something I've noticed is the rather unfortunate tendency of a lot of people who publish pop-science, or pop-pseudo-science, books to use quantum mechanics as a black box out of which can be pulled explanations for, well, virtually anything you like: ESP, ghosts, past lives, religious experiences, coincidences and indeed consciousness. This stems from the theory's reputation as a theory where "anything goes", "anything is possible"...which in turn comes from some of its predictions, which can be counter-intuitive, and some of its ontological interpretations, which can sound quite 'far out'. But there are certain very specific circumstances where these 'weird' behaviours become manifest...I mean, we don't diffract when we walk between two lamp posts, and at any given time you're either at home or out, you don't exist in some shadowy superposition of 'at home' and 'out'.

So I said what I said because there are a lot of writers out there that, frankly, mis-used QM to sell books about mumbo-jumbo to people who don't know any better. I don't mean stupid people (necessarily), just people without much knowledge of QM, which is nearly everyone, since it's such an abstruse and mathematically difficult theory.

I dunno, I've not read this book, maybe it's not the kind of book I've talked about above. There are serious thinkers trying to apply QM to how the brain works and how consciousness arises (among them Roger Penrose, one of the world's greatest mathematicians and theoretical physicists) but it's still very, very tentative. Could whoever mentioned the book give a quick summary of it (if you're read it yet)? Ta.

Reputation Comments on this post:

No qualitative or informed reason given for criticism.

[Decstar]

Well I haven't read the book, but it seems to have some good reviews by some very distinguished people including Nobel Prize winner, Charles Townes

"A remarkable and readable presentation of the basic mysteries of science, our universe, and human life. Critically important problems in our understanding are interestingly discussed with perception, depth, and careful objectivity."

Charles Townes: winner of the Nobel Prize in Physics, inventor of laser, Templeton Prize recipient

Decstar added 1 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

Btw I got this from the website http://quantumenigma.com/

[Decstar]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

But there are certain very specific circumstances where these 'weird' behaviours become manifest...I mean, we don't diffract when we walk between two lamp posts, and at any given time you're either at home or out, you don't exist in some shadowy superposition of 'at home' and 'out'.

Yes, but isn't that because you, as a conscious observer, having made an observation, e.g. whether you are home or not, that the probability of you being at a certain location becomes a certainty? Until a choice is made, an object exists across all space. How is it that when you take two entangled particles, and you send them to opposite sides of the universe, when you do something to one, the other reacts instantaniously? Is it not that they are still in reality, connected? And since everything was entangled at the moment of the big bang, then everything is still connected, and space is just the construct that gives the illusion that there are seperate objects.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting.

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by Decstar

Yes, but isn't that because you, as a conscious observer, having made an observation, e.g. whether you are home or not, that the probability of you being at a certain location becomes a certainty? Until a choice is made, an object exists across all space.

Hmm, this is the so-called 'Copenhagen interpretation' of QM, which is regarded these days as being very out-of-date, and is generally replaced by more sophisticated interpretations based on whether or not a system can interact with the outside universe, and don't rely on conscious observers, which is uncomfortably anthropocentric. But the older interpretation does raise some fascinating thought experiments and questions about conciousness, even if it's not taken seriously as a physical process these days.

Originally Posted by Decstar

How is it that when you take two entangled particles, and you send them to opposite sides of the universe, when you do something to one, the other reacts instantaniously? Is it not that they are still in reality, connected? And since everything was entangled at the moment of the big bang, then everything is still connected, and space is just the construct that gives the illusion that there are seperate objects.

Two things are worth noting here: 1) that although it does seem that some sort of influence can 'travel' instantaneously between the two particles, it's impossible to use this to send any kind of signal from one particle to the other, and 2) that if one particle interacts with the rest of the universe, its special connection to the distant other particle is destroyed. Entanglement seems to be very 'delicate'.

[ATWA]

Well I understand that you want to have existence of the self after death but it just does not happen. Now the point is that "we" or "you" is gone after death. But that does not mean that components of you do not continue that are universal. But that is not "you". It would be part of you.

[oggy]

Originally Posted by ATWA

Well I understand that you want to have existence of the self after death but it just does not happen. Now the point is that "we" or "you" is gone after death. But that does not mean that components of you do not continue that are universal. But that is not "you". It would be part of you.

So you've gone from being a nihilist to being a spiritualist? What components are you talking about, the spirit/soul?

[ATWA]

Originally Posted by oggy

So you've gone from being a nihilist to being a spiritualist? What components are you talking about, the spirit/soul?

Oh certainly not. There is no sou and there is no spirit. And I said "this does not mean". I did not say that it was true. But since you ask I was alluding to the base of the universe having intelligence in some sense. I did not say that I subscribed to this but I can respect the position. I was speaking in the hypothetical sense.

But I think people are being condescending to me. Trust me I am not into "Pop" anything. I am way too old for that. I never ever read anything about "nihilism". I formulated my opinions and then went looking for the closest word to describe my position. Now I do not want to sound "condescending" but I would wager that I am much closer to death than you guys barring you getting fast moving disease or getting in a major accident. I am closer to the edge of the horizon. And as I look over it there is nothing there. I realize you are afraid to die and I am sorry. But you are going to and you will be no more. And after you die you can remember I told you so. Oh wait..That does not work.

[Decstar]

Originally Posted by ATWA

Oh certainly not. There is no sou and there is no spirit. And I said "this does not mean". I did not say that it was true. But since you ask I was alluding to the base of the universe having intelligence in some sense. I did not say that I subscribed to this but I can respect the position. I was speaking in the hypothetical sense.

But I think people are being condescending to me. Trust me I am not into "Pop" anything. I am way too old for that. I never ever read anything about "nihilism". I formulated my opinions and then went looking for the closest word to describe my position. Now I do not want to sound "condescending" but I would wager that I am much closer to death than you guys barring you getting fast moving disease or getting in a major accident. I am closer to the edge of the horizon. And as I look over it there is nothing there. I realize you are afraid to die and I am sorry. But you are going to and you will be no more. And after you die you can remember I told you so. Oh wait..That does not work.

Absolute nonsense. Of course there is such thing as a soul. We are not isolated egos inside a bag of skin. When you see people like Jesus making great unselfish sacrifices with their lives for the rest of humanity, you know there is something which binds us together and is eternal. We are intricately connected with the universe and the species. The human spirit lives on from generation to generation. It is, in fact, the physical world which does not exist. Even what we percieve to be solid objects are actually immaterial when you look at them at the sub-atomic level. The physical world that we see around us is just a construct of our imagination, and it is the spiritual world which is real and is all around us, but we just don't see it. As Jesus said,

"Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not worthy."

Life is just like a virtual reality video game. But you have been playing the video game for so long that you have just forgotten who you are, where you have come from, and where you are going. So instead of saying things like 'Hey, this video game is pretty serious; I've got a lot invested in this video game, look at my house, look at my car...', you need to start enjoying your life and not only recognise the divine within yourself but also in others around you.

By the way, why do you say that people of faith fear death? Most people of faith that I know do not need to fear death, and those that do, their faith isn't strong enough. In fact I find it is the opposite. I really don't know many atheists who aren't truely afraid of death. You don't get many atheists who are prepared to sacrifice their own lives for the lives of others, like Jesus did. Such courage only comes about with faith.

And why do think that just because you your age you have better insight as to what lies beyond? As Jesus said,

"The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live. For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

[lostmente]

I've seen references to NDE having pretty much no detectable brain activity for the time in question, so classically speaking the brain is not experiencing what the being is during that time.
Also, there have been times while high on things like salvia that swim found much more experience to be crammed into the short period than time could make room for. As an opposition, a friend once had visions on laughing gas while in hospital...the staff tried to get the mask off him for 15 minutes and he laughed the entire time but he can only recall maybe a minute.

In the movie what the bleep to we know, they talk about there being no delay between the brain having the sensation of touch and you actually being touched, but direct stimulation of the the area associated with the same touch there was a delay. This was put down to the counciousness of the touch being projected back in time to when you were actually touched.

I really love the ideas about counciousness being feasiblly quite loosly bound to physical reality...especially how intergral it is to the concept of time

[WTF O_o]

Originally Posted by lostmente

I've seen references to NDE having pretty much no detectable brain activity for the time in question, so classically speaking the brain is not experiencing what the being is during that time.

'Pretty much' no detectable brain activity, or completely no brain activity at all?

See i always imagined these afterlife insights from NDE are just the result of the brain being starved from oxygen for a brief period of time and hallucinating