Opinions - What are the 5 best strains of papaver somniferum? Questions on indoor lighting too

heroin_ed · #1 18-02-2009, 21:03

SWIM has looked and looked but has not found a definitive answer. His question is this: What are the 5 best strains of the opium poppy and why? Which strains give the most opium yield? Which strains give the most potent yield? Thanks in advance for all of SWIY's answers.

UPDATE:
Swim found and bought some hungarian blue papaver somniferum seeds. Please tell SWIM this is a good strain. Also, SWIM looked at some lights for planting indoors. The garden shop had both incandescent bulbs and fluorescent tubes priced at $9.99, will both work? SWIM remembers people he knew buying plant lights that cost around $250 so he is a little wary about the efficacy of the cheapy plant lights.

samuraigecko · #2 19-02-2009, 02:29

1] Tasmanian purple.
2] Burma White.
3] Indian White.
4] Afghani.
6] Hens and Chicks.

The top will always be Tasmanian purple. Its morphine to alkaloid ratio is 30%, hard to beat. SWIM has never heard of the Hungarian blue.

Peace

heroin_ed · #3 19-02-2009, 03:40

Thanks for the reply, SWIM has googled and looked everywhere over the net and can't find anything about alkaloid content of the Hungarian blue strain. Any others out there with info on this damn Hungarian blue strain and/or the question on lighting?

In case anybody wonders why SWIM is so worried about the Hungarian blue strain is because he heard that there are strains of papaver somniferum that have like, .5%-1% morphine content and he doesn't feel like putting his heart and soul into growing these things only to find out that it was a waste of time, he has no credit or debit card so can't buy off the net and the only thing around where he lives is Hungarian blue. And considering that he was able to purchase it at his local gardening center he is just a little paranoid that it will have low alkaloid content.

The company who manufactures it is Botanical Interests and the packaging says "Poppy bread seed" and "Heirloom" on it. SWIM doesn't know if that means anything he just wants answers.

joshua666 · #4 19-02-2009, 05:24

U can order off the net without a credit card,try cod or money order,theres alot of places that only take paypal but there are still some that take the above payments...

samuraigecko · #5 19-02-2009, 06:35

cheap lights are cheap for a reason. One gets exactly what they pay for generally.
HID lights are the best. Probably an agricultural HPS lamp with extended blue spectrum.

Peace

heroin_ed · #6 20-02-2009, 20:25

Thanks for all the info so far guys. Anybody got any info on the hungarian blues?

Phentasies · #7 20-02-2009, 23:08

SWIM's grown what were likely Tasmanian Giganthemums, and Persian Whites.

The tazzie gigs had white flowers with 4 dark purple swipes in them and the petals would fall off within just 24 hours of appearing. swim's largest plant produced 36 or 37 pods, with the "crown pods" being the size of a tennis ball. The foliage was moderate to dark green. These plants had very large leaves, the largest leaf was 10 inches in width at its widest point. The stalks of the pods had "hair" or soft-spikes on them. When they got mature the part of the leaves closest to the stalk developed a powdery-blue/lavender "haze" or frosting on them that could be wiped off with your finger. They also would develop a tourquoisey ring just below the pods crown during maturation, once this ring faded and was no longer visible or very faint, they are ready for harvest.

When lanced, they secreted either a white or light brown latex that would then dry into a moderate to dark brown material.

swim's persian whites never got more than 5 or 6 pods per plant. The flowers were a yellow-white cream color, with no swipes, and would remain on the plant for 7-10 days before falling off. However, flower color has NO relevance to the strain. If you have TRUE persian whites, they will have a white frosting or "haze" on ALL of the foliage, pods, and stalks, THIS is how you know its a persian white. The stalks of the pods had no hair/spikes on them.

When lanced, they secreted a light pink (muave) colored latex and would then dry into a dark-maroon colored material.

You cannot identify a strain by its flower colors. This has no relation to anything, it really doesnt.

The way to identify giganthemums (and hybrids) aside from the large pod size (tennis ball sized crown-pods), is:

- Hairs/spikes on the stalks of the pods (not the plants trunk/branches)
- A tourqoise ring forms just under the crown of the pod when its maturing and disappears/fades when theyre ready for harvest
- A blue haze/frosting forming at the inner-end of the leaves during mid-growth

The way to identify persian whites (and hybrids);

- A white frosting/haze over the entire plants foliage/leaves, stalks, pods, etc.
- When lanced, secretes a light pink (muave) colored latex that then dries into a dark-maroon material.

For sheer quantity of latex, gigs are the way to go. If you grow them right, you should be getting over 30 pods per plant over its lifetime. Potency wise, its virtually impossible to tell the difference between the ones swim grew, opiums so weak as is its very hard to guage any potency differences.

samuraigecko · #8 21-02-2009, 04:33

That is a Misnomer . .
They are not gigs, that is just what Tasmanian Purple is. It is the stabilized strain used for the medical industry from Tasmania, a small island at the bottom of Australia.

Phentasies · #9 25-02-2009, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

That is a Misnomer . .
They are not gigs, that is just what Tasmanian Purple is. It is the stabilized strain used for the medical industry from Tasmania, a small island at the bottom of Australia.

Uh no offence but thats an unbelievably ignorant statement.

You have no way of knowing what any strain of poppy is. Anyone who pretends they know what a poppy strain is because of some descriptor is speaking pure ignorance.

SWIM gives the characteristics of the two trains SWIM grew, if someone sees all the EXACT same characteristics in their strain, then its likely closely associated to those SWIM grew. Wether theyre technically a "persian white" or a "tasmanian gig", no one knows for certain, and SWIM only uses those names as reference to the particular strain SWIM grows, but doesnt necessarily believe thats what they REALLY are because theyre certainly a unique hybrid of many strains over thousands of years.

The color of the flower HAS NO RELEVANCE to anything. You think because it has a white flower with purple swipes that is suddenly a "Tasmanian Purple" stupidest thing ever.

There is no such thing as a "purebred" poppy, every poppy is a mutt of thousands of years of cross-pollination, and each has its own unique mixture of cross-polination giving each unique characteristics.

If two people have poppes that have white flowers with purple swipes, but one of the persons poppies dont have hairs on the pod-stalks but the others does, guess what? Theyre NOT the same poppy.

If ones poppy has oval leaves and the other has long-spikey leaves, theyre not the same poppy.

If ones secretes brown latex and the other secrets pink latex, theyre not the same poppy.

If EVERY characteristic except for one, are the same, theyre NOT the same poppy. 1 differing characteristic indicates differing hybridization down its genetic line.

If you have a dog thats part labrador and part golden retriever, but looks like a labrador, do you call it a labrador? If your ignorant you do.

I laugh when people try to say "Oh ya thats ____ strain because its flowers are _____". What about all the other charactseristics? I guess those have no relevance to anything.

Your statement reminds me of a seed supplier who said "I have afghani poppies, you know theyre afghani cause they have fuscia flowers and barrel-shaped pods". SWIMs poppies had EVERY shape of pod imagineable all on one plant (sphere, barrel, squished sphere, subtle-pear-like).

Also, google images of afghani poppies, not only are there flowers of every color of the rainbow and pods of every shape possible, but some crops have white-hazed foliage and others do not (another major characteristic).

Flower color means absolutely nothing. If SWIM crosses a "tasmanian purple" with a "persian white" and the flower remains white with pruple swipes, do we call it a tasmanian purple? Sure, if we're ignorant.

Face it, no one knows what any strain is except for maybe hens & chicks but even though, what defines what a hen and chick is? There could be thousands of hybrid-variations of hen and chick that will have the ring of mini-pods but every other characteristic is unique.

In SWIMs experience, the following are all characteristics of relevance that are unique to each strain;

- Flower color
- Flower/Petal shaping
- Mini-pods around major pod (H&C)
- Duration of time petals remain on plant after flowering
- Style of branching
- Shape of leaves
- Foliage color/frostings/hazes
- Vibrant colored ring/no-ring right below crown of pod
- Wether crown rises during maturation or remains flat
- Spikes/no-spikes on stalk of pods
- Latex color
- Black-spot bruising or no bruising on pods
- Color of seeds
- Speed of plant growth
- Pod size
- Leaf size
- Stalk thickness
- Plant height
- Number of pods

Those are just SOME characteristics that are UNIQUE to each hybrid. Just because two strains have one characteristic the same, doesnt mean theyre the same strain whatsoever and anyone trying to state so is just flapping their lips with no fact behind it.

If one can match EVERY SINGLE one of the above characteristics from two different batches of poppy, then theres a FAIR chance they might be the exact same strain.

Reputation Comments on this post:

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samuraigecko · #10 25-02-2009, 05:19

Um . . .yea thanks for calling SWIM ignorant.
If one was inclined to have a look one would see exactly what SWIM means and that he KNOWS what he is talking about.

SWIM did not assume anything. . . .
SWIM said that the Tasmanian GIGS was a Misnomer (mis-named) because there is no such thing as Tasmanian gigs unless someone else has bred them (doubtful) and just decided to call them that.

SWIM constantly grows Tasmanians and they are exactly as SWIY has described. And since SWIY says that they are Tasmanian then logically that is what they would be. So unfortunately it is not SWIM whom is ignorant. . . but perhaps other people whom read more into a statment than is actually there.

Remember SWIM is here to help and was only trying to offer information which may have helped SWIY understand what SWIY has more completely. Tasmanian Purple is actually one of the best varieties to have. And if someone else has bred it personally and called it that just for the hell of it, then SWIM does concede that he is incorrect. However if they are known to be Tasmanians, and just Tasmanians, then Tasmanian Purple is what they are because Tasmanian Gigs are not a known or established variety.

Please read up on all of the Papaver Somniferum Botany, selective breeding, genetics, Opium production and General information SWIM has provided. He would not intentionally steer ANYONE on this forum wrong.

Peace

Phentasies · #11 25-02-2009, 09:11

It is ignorant to say you KNOW something is such and such strain, cause theres no way you can know that for certain or even remotely certain.

You can read all the books you want. Its common misinformation that if a poppy has white seeds and white flowers than its a "persian white". Its rediculous.

SWIMs more inclined to believe the name persian white is derived from the color of the foliage rather than the flower as SWIMs seen many photos of white-hazed foliage poppies with flowers in all colors of the rainbow.

Most wouldnt realize that there are poppies with very white-haze covered foliage that is MUCH different from normal poppy foliage, unless theyve seen the two foliage colors side by side, then it becomes very apparent how white the foliage looks.

Unless there is a classification guide somewhere that lists each strain name and then identifies each of the characteristics I listed that-that strain must have to truly be that claimed strain, theres no way anyone knows what any strain is.

SWIM doesnt believe for 1 second ANY supplier selling poppy seeds really knows the strain they have, unless they somehow traced back its unique cross-polination over thousands of years, they cant possibly know.

Most just look at the color of the flower and say its such and such strain because it has a flower that color. This is rediculously misleading and serves no purpose other than to give people a feeling of "coolness" because they can say "Im growing AK-47-Bazooka-Boom-Boom strain, I feel so awesome".

SWIM has this same issue with marijuana strains. Whenever some dealer says "Ya this is _____ strain" SWIM just rolls eyes.

And as to "gigs" or not "gigs", SWIM believes a gig means nothing more than that any strain has been selectively bred to be as large as absolutely possible. Thus any strain thats been bred that way, is a "gig". SWIMs poppies grew rediculously huge, and would be as gigantic as a poppy can be.

Note the foot long ruler dwarfed in the foliage in the bottom photo. This is just 2 "tasmanian giganthemums" plants before they began bolting, full vegetative state still. Notice how large the leaf on the right plant is compared to the ruler, thats 10 inches across in width at its widest point, if thats not "gig" then nothing is.

Also for others heres some latex comparison shots between "persian white" (left) and "tasmanian giganthemum" (right).

The other photo shows maturation "ring" identification for knowing when to harvest. Ring only existed on the "tasmanian giganthemum" strain, the "persian whites" have no ring that forms and fades.

Phentasies · #12 25-02-2009, 09:49

SWIM also forgot to add another defining characteristic in poppies.

Its apparent in the latex comparison photograph, notice the crown of the poppies. The "persian white" crown is smooth-edged and circular at the end, whereas the "tasmanian giganthemum" is jagged edged and square at the end.

Phentasies added 35 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

Samurai,

Is there any books out there that actually list all the "claimed" strains and provide a LIST of ALL (and more) of the characteristics ive listed and state which each of those strains has?

Because if not, then I dont know how anyone can ever say they know what any strain is.

Someone needs to take the time to grow many strains with a checklist of all the potential characteristics that can differ between poppies and develop an in-depth explanation of them.

ALL the suppliers ive seen, im almost positive alls theyre doing when they say what strain theyre selling, is basing this on the color of the flower, which is absolutely rediculous.

Flower will differe based on whatever its been crossed with over thosuands and thousands of years. You can have 5 different poppies each with the same flower color, yet each have other characteristics that are different, and thus, they are NOT the same strain, they might contain the same relative strains in their genetics, but somewhere along the line each got crossed with a different strain than the other that resulted in various characteristic differences. Yet 99% of ignorant fools will say theyre all the same strain cause they all have the same flower color.

Hell, I dont even think 99% of poppy growers realize there are even 1/5th as many unique little characteristics as those I listed. For example I dont think many people know that certain strains of poppies will hold their petals longer than others, and if two poppies had the same flower color and everyother characteristic, but ones petals would falloff in just a day and the others wouldnt fall off for days or even weeks, that would be a strong indicator theyre not identical and have different genetics.

SWIMs "tazzy gigs" would hold petals for just 24 hours, the longest was 48 hours. SWIMs "persian whites" would hold petals for at least 7 days, even in a strong breeze or heavy rain.

Jonro · #13 26-02-2009, 03:58

Phentasies i don't know if your new round here or not but if anyone should know what a strain should look like or not it would be the samuraigecko. Read through his stickies and threads.

samuraigecko · #14 26-02-2009, 05:52

Papaver Somniferum Botany and Selective breeding.
Mauve Madness.
These are just a smalll sample of SWIMs extensive knowledge. This is no "i just read a book" knowledge . . . This is 20 years of pratical experience and a Masters Degree in Org Bio. Please actually read those thinks, SWIyou WILL learn a lot.

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