Extraction - Average mescaline yield from San Pedro

[69Ron]

SWIM has extracted from San Pedro many times and almost always gets very poor yields. Is this typical? What’s the average mescaline (including other alkaloids) yield you get from extracting from San Pedro using your tech?

[1108]

SWIY seems to know what he's doing most of the time, so it's confusing that SWIY hasn't gotten it to work well.

What is the exact procedure SWIY followed? Has he tried a few independent sources of cactus?

[comrade_christophe]

to many variables with it, the cacti, your procedure, is the finished product HCL, Citrate, acetate... how clean is your final product?

first place to look at getting better yeilds would be at the cacti and your procedure (ratios solvent to basic liquid, when you basify what ph are you going up to, all that jazz)

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by 1108

SWIY seems to know what he's doing most of the time, so it's confusing that SWIY hasn't gotten it to work well.

What is the exact procedure SWIY followed? Has he tried a few independent sources of cactus?

SWIM has tried cactus from many sources, and has tried many different techs. All yeilds were very low, with the average about 0.06%.

[1108]

SWIM has tried cactus from many sources, and has tried many different techs. All yeilds were very low, with the average about 0.06%.

Well, since most people seem to succeed, getting a string of failures in a row is very unlikely if the probability of failure is conditionally independent ( Pn = P^n, where Pn is the probability of n consecutive failures for a conditionally independent chance of failure of P ). This is strong evidence that they are dependent - you've got a problem.

It is possible that the cactus you bought all came from one bad batch that got split to different distributors and then funneled back to you, or something strange like that.

I'm thinking it is much more likely that you are repeatedly doing something wrong without knowing it's wrong.

If you can give us details of exactly what you did (including many seemingly irrelevant details, since those are the ones that go under your radar), we may be able to pick it out.

In some other thread somewhere, I think I recall reading you say that you dislike NaOH and well not allow it in your house. Perhaps you aren't getting the PH high enough? I also remember something about you not liking xylene, but I'd have to find the exact thread.

On a separate note, I'm pretty sure the lowest number on the poll (0.03-0.039%) was made by someone that fucked up his calculations (twice), and that the vote should go in the 0.5-0.59% group

[69Ron]

YOU DO NOT NEED SODIUM HYDROXIDE. That’s complete nonsense. The pKa of mescaline is 9.56. To freebase 90% requires only a pH of 10.56. At pH 11.56 99% is freebased. So sodium hydroxide is not needed! If it was needed, the professionals would use it and most documented reports use ammonia or sodium carbonate to extract mescaline form cactus. The professionals using sodium carbonate or ammonia as the base report yields in the 1-2% range. The recommended pH is 10-11 according to the pros. So sodium hydroxide is just not needed. I hate how this nonsense topic always pops up about how sodium hydroxide is needed. It’s not based on the facts at all.

I’ve done a lot of research on mescaline extraction. SWIM gets the pH high enough, pH 11 is his usual target (though he’s gone all the way up to 14 before). So pH is not a problem. SWIM is very successful at extracting all sorts of alkaloids from other plants. He’s used literally hundreds of different kinds of extraction techs on different plants. He’s on the border of being a professional himself.

SWIM has tried every base including sodium hydroxide. Long ago he tried sodium hydroxide and got the pH up to 14. It didn't make any difference. The yield was 0.01%.

SWIM has used all the different solvents recommended except chloroform and benzene. So, yes he’s used xylene many times. He’s also used dichloromethane. He even used acetone once in a special tech SWIM designed for it and actually got the best yields ever using that tech (still only 0.19%). Next he'll try d-limonene and see how that goes.

SWIM’s cactus that was used was from many different vendors spanning over 20 years of time. He’s never got any potent San Pedro. He’s eaten them fresh, made tea out of them, extracted them, etc., etc., etc., and still only gets very little from them.

SWIM sees others report by the pros of yields in the 1-2% ranges and is totally jealous. SWIM is either just extremely unlucky in always getting weak cactus, or something else is wrong. Even eating 12 inch cuttings of fresh San Pedro have always produced almost no effects at all.

Maybe somehow SWIM is doing something that is destroying the mescaline without knowing it. Maybe something in the water where SWIM lives is destroying it? What sorts of things can destroy mescaline?

69Ron added 7 Minutes and 22 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by 1108

On a separate note, I'm pretty sure the lowest number on the poll (0.03-0.039%) was made by someone that fucked up his calculations (twice), and that the vote should go in the 0.5-0.59% group

The highest SWIM ever got was 0.19%, but 0.06% is typical for SWIM. The lowest yield SWIM got was 0.01%.

Who voted 0.030-0.039%? Was that a mistake?

[1108]

YOU DO NOT NEED SODIUM HYDROXIDE. That’s complete nonsense. The pKa of mescaline is 9.56. To freebase 90% requires only a pH of 10.56. At pH 11.56 99% is freebased. So sodium hydroxide is not needed! If it was needed, the professionals would use it and most documented reports use ammonia or sodium carbonate to extract mescaline form cactus. The professionals using sodium carbonate or ammonia as the base report yields in the 1-2% range. The recommended pH is 10-11 according to the pros. So sodium hydroxide is just not needed. I hate how this nonsense topic always pops up about how sodium hydroxide is needed. It’s not based on the facts at all.

I understand the basic chemistry behind it, and agree; it doesn't look like it's necessary. However, in SWIMs extraction, he was getting poor yields even using KOH though not the rediculous amount called for in most teks. Since this was the one thing he could finger as being different, he tried adding more and started getting much more coming out. The amount per pull was dropping as if it was almost out of mescaline, but upon adding more base, SWIM got twice as much as the first pull, and it decreased from there.

Maybe SWIM didn't have the PH high enough in the first place (though he did use a pretty good amount of KOH and the pool PH tester said "too high to read"), or maybe something more complicated and weird is going on that I don't understand.

The point is that when someone repeatedly fails - even an otherwise expert- it's strong evidence for them doing something wrong, and should raise your priors up to where it's worth investigating. If you can defend all your steps equally well, then you aren't ever going to catch a mistake if you're making one. To find mistakes, you have to start questioning *somewhere*.

As a though experiment, pretend god (not that I'm actually religious) visited you and handed you a paper on a silver platter that said "Your mescaline extractions are giving very poor yields because ________" where the blank could be "your PH was too low" or "you heated for too long" or anything. What could he tell you that would make you the least indignant?

For example, if god told me that if I understood macroecon better, I'd follow political party x instead of y, I'd say "OK, didn't see that coming". In another example, I could be told that GR is flawed, and newtonian gravity is correct. "In a case like this, I would be highly indignant and would probably sue Reality for breach of contract."

SWIM is very successful at extracting all sorts of alkaloids from other plants. He’s used literally hundreds of different kinds of extraction techs on different plants. He’s on the border of being a professional himself.

Believe me, I know. When I read through forum posts, I generally don't read it unless it was by one of a handful or so of people that seem to really know what they're talking about. You make the cut, which is why I'm interested. If you hadn't made that impression on me, I'd blow it off as some idiot that doesn't know how to follow directions, and move on.

SWIM has used all the different solvents recommended except chloroform and benzene. So, yes he’s used xylene many times. He’s also used dichloromethane. He even used acetone once in a special tech SWIM designed for it and actually got the best yields ever using that tech (still only 0.19%). Next he'll try d-limonene and see how that goes.

Hmm... Doesn't seem like it could be the solvent then.

SWIM’s cactus that was used was from many different vendors spanning over 20 years of time. He’s never got any potent San Pedro. He’s eaten them fresh, made tea out of them, extracted them, etc., etc., etc., and still only gets very little from them.

How many different batches of cactus are we talking? 5? 50? I was going to suggest eating them fresh, since that doesn't give you chance to screw it up and should test for potency. Since you have done this and still gotten poor results, that's some evidence for the "bunk cactus" hypothesis. How many different batches did you try this on?

Maybe somehow SWIM is doing something that is destroying the mescaline without knowing it. Maybe something in the water where SWIM lives is destroying it? What sorts of things can destroy mescaline?

I can't think of any specific ideas (I thought mescaline was a fairly hardy bastard?) but I'd think hard for even seemingly minute details that separate you from everyone else.

Who voted 0.030-0.039%? Was that a mistake?

Perhaps I was a bit too subtle last time. SWIM did it :P

Reputation Comments on this post:

very good suggestions

[69Ron]

SWIM has had maybe a total of 25 batches of San Pedro over the past 20 years or so. Not that much. SWIM normally gets interesting in cactus after Christmas when he has time for the long mescaline trip. Maybe that has something to do with his low yields? Maybe it’s seasonal?

Well, SWIM is extracting a new tech today using San Pedro green outer flesh. It’s from a completely new vendor. He’s doing some extraction tests on it. This time he’s doing an STB tech he just came up with. This one is based on calcium hydroxide. He basically mixed 100 grams of powdered cactus with 25 grams of calcium hydroxide and 300 ml of water. This was just enough water to make it wet, but not watery. This got the pH up to 12.4.

Then he attempted to extract with 300 ml of d-limonene. That was followed by two 200 ml pulls with xylene. The two solvents were processed as two different batches. They were both filtered. Then he used a 20 ml 5% hydrochloric acid solution to salt out the mescaline from the two separate batches. Both of them produced precipitates caused by the calcium hydroxide after salting which needed to be filtered out. After filtering out the calcium junk he separated the 5% hydrochloric acid solution from the two solvents.

The xylene batch was evaporated first (even though the d-limonene batch was actually extracted first). It produced only mescaline HCl crystals. No other crystal formations were present. The crystals were slightly amber. They were scraped up and washed with 15 ml of acetone. After washing the crystals were nearly white with a slight pink hue. It came to a total of 164 mg (0.164 % yield). Judging by the crystal formations viewed under a microscope, the near white color, and the taste, SWIM would say its about 98% pure mescaline. It’s possible that it has other compounds in it that have crystal structures that are identical to mescaline, in which case SWIM’s 98% purity estimate would be incorrect.

The d-limonene batch is still evaporating. There ARE mescaline crystals present. He viewed the crystals under a microscope and they are indeed mescaline HCl crystals with no other crystal formations present. It’s looking good so far. SWIM doesn’t know how much yet. He’s going to sleep. He’ll see tomorrow. It’s nice to know that d-limonene can actually extract freebase mescaline. With d-limonene being non-toxic, food grade, and 100% natural, it’s always the best solvent to use WHEN it works right for the tech. In this case it works. NICE TO KNOW I hope the yield from it is better than the yield from the xylene. That would be awesome!

69Ron added 446 Minutes and 57 Seconds later...

Ok so the yield so far is quite good.

The single d-limonene pull actually pulled 274 mg, more than the two xylene pulls.

In total, so far, SWIM’s calcium hydroxide STB tech pulled 438 mg, for a yield of 0.438%. SWIM will make more pulls, so that number is not final. But so far, that’s the best yield SWIM ever had.

I think it’s just that SWIM has been unlucky in getting weak cactus in the past. The San Pedro he has right now is pretty decent. SWIM IS A HAPPY CAMPER

I like this new calcium hydroxide based STB tech, it’s very simple, and I like the fact that d-limonene works to extract mescaline. SWIM will be using that instead of xylene from now on. The only downside to this tech is the reliance on hydrochloric acid. SWIM cannot get food grade hydrochloric acid. But since the mescaline crystals are washed with acetone at the end, whatever impurities are present were probably washed away.

...

EDIT: SWIM pulled an additional 335 mg using d-limonene. His total yield is 0.774 % so far. He believes there is still more to pull and will do more pulls later.

[1108]

o
SWIM has had maybe a total of 25 batches of San Pedro over the past 20 years or so. Not that much. SWIM normally gets interesting in cactus after Christmas when he has time for the long mescaline trip. Maybe that has something to do with his low yields? Maybe it’s seasonal?

That's quite a few times. I don't know anything about cactus growing, but sounds plausible...

Well, given that you got nice yields this time, you weren't doing things *consistently* wrong. I don't know what to think of it, since getting really bad cactus 25 times seems very unlikely, but then again, so does a skilled person screwing up 25 times and then succeeding without finding an error.

Either way, congratulations! Good luck with further pulls!

If you're want to use food safe acid, there's a tek out there about using citric acid and freeze precipitating mescaline citrate.

[69Ron]

SWIM has since been able to extract 3.5% mescaline from San Pedro dried green outer flesh using his new tech found here Non toxic food safe extraction of mescaline using d-limonene (orange oil). It works much better than any other tech he's tried.

With his new tech he's now averaging about 3% mescaline from San Pedro dried green outer flesh.

[CrookedEye]

SWIM extracted 1 kilo, of dried torch skins from a peruvian vendor, in four batches of 250g per batch. 1 lb of lye was added slowly and mixed to a half gallon of water and the 250g of dried, ground cacti skins were funneled into the solution and shaken well. The excess lye helps to break down the plant material as well as make the mescaline a freebase. He added a nice layer of xylene, not measured, but enough to make decanting it off the jug easy.

He shook the heck out of it, and placed into a hot water bath, and he had separation in under 30 mins. He repeated this two more times with fresh solvent and combined them, each time leaving about an 1/8 inch or less of solvent on the solution, to avoid getting any of the lye/cacti solution. He then added HCl water to the jug. He evapped in a baking dish in the oven set at 225, and it never boiled.

He tested various concentrations of acid to see how much color he got versus how much yield. His first batch came out the cleanest. 2.5 grams from the first 250g, and 3.2g of brown crystalline substance from the dirtiest. The acetone wash made this a light tan, and the weight of the light tan, was 3g. He tried lighter concentrations of acid to get light tan, and perfomred acetone washes to get it white. The average yield was about 2.5-2.6g of white HCl crystals per 250g of cacti skins.

500mgs of the white crystals was a nice trip, but not too intense. SWIM is a hardhead with most psychedelics, so his next journey will be with a gram. Tonight he thinks..

He also saved the lye/cacti solution to try another solvent pull, to see if he can yield any more. If he gets to it, he'll report the results.

CrookedEye added 679 Minutes and 24 Seconds later...

1 gram was much more enjoyable to SWIM, much more visual.. SWIM think's next dose will be a gram and a half for breakthrough experience..