Has anyone ever been prosecuted online for not swimming?

[Synesthesiac]

I think thats its generally a good idea for people to swim instead of incriminate themselves. I do find myself wondering however if anyone has ever reported being prosecuted online due to what they say.

Anyone know of anything thats happened? Have other forums ever got contacted by the law in any way? Have people ever had online forum posts used as evidence in court? Has any agency ever requested information about people who post about drug use?

I'm not saying that I dont agree with the rules, I think its a very sensible rule, especially for the forum admins and to ensure the safety of the site, I'm just curious as to how often internet forums may be used in prosectutions and if this happens regularly.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	first it was the ban of rep. abusers, now you question the selfincrimination policy! why dont you make a €40 donat...
	Interesting question
	Very good question indeed.

[honourableone]

I agree, it doesn't seem to be a very big issue on a personal scale, and I doubt something said on a forum has ever caused an investigation into someone (though online self incrimination could be bad for someone already under investigation).

For the well being of the forum though (as well as in general), I think SWIMming is useful. It could easily (and possibly succesfully) be claimed in court that DF is intended only to expand the knowledge of people who don't take drugs, for the safety benefit of people DF users know that do, and that DF in no way encourages illegal activities (which of course it doesn't).

[Synesthesiac]

Yeah swim does like swimming as he just finds it feels safer.

Some of the other forums are ridiculous, they go around saying things like "yeah just sold a quarter of coke to some dude" and then seconds later post a picture of themselves in another thread smoking a joint to boast about how mashed they were last night. Thats just asking for trouble. And i'm very glad its nothing like that here. This place is a courts and lawyers worst nightmare.

[polidelaiko]

The thing for most "SWIMers" is that SWIM could mean "someone who isn't me" or "Someone who IS me"...

Reputation Comments on this post:

well, swim can actually mean anything, but it is defined on the rules as someone who isn't me so it doesn't matter what ...

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by polidelaiko

The thing for most "SWIMers" is that SWIM could mean "someone who isn't me" or "Someone who IS me"...

lol, never thought of that

Originally Posted by honourableone

It could easily (and possibly succesfully) be claimed in court that DF is intended only to expand the knowledge of people who don't take drugs, for the safety benefit of people DF users know that do, and that DF in no way encourages illegal activities (which of course it doesn't).

Yeah that is a very good point. But what I'm interested in is if there are any known cases of situations like this arrising. I can imagine that if someone gets into real trouble with the law and gets their computer searched, if the police were clever enough to find out their username and what sites they use, then they would have a note by note guide of all their illegal activities, so that does make a very strong case. Open source Truecrypt Encryption on your drives is a must for any drug user that worries about their activities online, swim uses it. But, still, I still have not heard of this happening yet, but really would not be surprised to find a few cases where it has been used as evidence.

[Richi]

Originally Posted by polidelaiko

The thing for most "SWIMers" is that SWIM could mean "someone who isn't me" or "Someone who IS me"...

Originally Posted by Synesthesiac

lol, never thought of that

I always though that was the point...........


Just chiming in... carry on...

[Alfa]

Yes, there have been such cases, where online incrimination or forum posts or even PM's have lead to arrests and court cases. Especially in the USA. Use the search engine for that. Other sites have been contacted, court ordered, raided, shut and members have been raided, arrested, trialled and sentenced as well. Various situations in different situations & countries.

Drugs are mostly illegal. Possession, production, trade, smuggling, etc are breaches of the law. Forums about drugs could be seen as promoting these breaches of the law. This by itself is illegal. In some countries even as conspiracy to break them. Now there's no way that I am going to lay out the full picture here, but any creative mind can catch my drift and understand that in essence a drug related forum is a huge liability in a great number of ways. Not only for someone that is stupid enough to write down that he is breaking the law, but even more so for the person that is stupid enough to host it; i.e. me.

All it takes is one person to get wrapped up in a court case with confessions here, and I'll get a court order to hand over information. Unlike most sites, that has not happened to us. I would like to keep it that way.

[Synesthesiac]

^ Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure. The sites where people upload pictures of themselves and incriminate themselves all the time could all suddenly be picked off by the authorities one by one, that really would cause a stir and the sites in question would probably start to enforce similar rules to here. There could be a sudden internet crackdown like Operation Web Tryp but on forums instead.

Thats good that you haven't been asked to hand over info like most other sites have. Lets try to keep it that way.

[yay, post 600!!!]

[terrapinzflyer]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Now there's no way that I am going to lay out the full picture here, but any creative mind can catch my drift and understand that in essence a drug related forum is a huge liability in a great number of ways. Not only for someone that is stupid enough to write down that he is breaking the law, but even more so for the person that is stupid enough to host it; i.e. me.

One way all swiy swimmers can say thank you to Alfa DONATE

[cra$h]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Yes, there have been such cases, where online incrimination or forum posts or even PM's have lead to arrests and court cases. Especially in the USA. Use the search engine for that. Other sites have been contacted, court ordered, raided, shut and members have been raided, arrested, trialled and sentenced as well. Various situations in different situations & countries.

There's been two or three people who have tried to get sources from me, or trying to get me personally to get them drugs. Sounded too much like a cop so I just reviewed the rules with them and told them that I'm not involved with that kind of activity. Kinda scary, but I'm not a law-breaker so what do I have to worry about?

And I'm sure it was said before, but swim isn't really for you, it's for the site. As long as we keep everything as knowlage and story, we're gonna be around a lot longer than the sites that have members boast about how they can make a shitload of meth or anything of the like.

[Toma]

I think the SWIM rule works mainly for the protection of the forum rather than the poster. All I've read on other forums of people having on-line activity used against them by law enforcement was either them posting pictures of themselves with drugs, police using info on forums to bust parties or festivals or online drug transactions. Basically what you have to worry about is your big mouth, just like in real life.

[Alfa]

Off topic posts have been moved to: security of unmounted partitions?

[RadioHead]

Aparently on another forum (which i'm not allowed to mention the name of) a person talked about growing weed i think, they asked him if he had posted on a certain forum under his name, he only got done for a bit of possession though.

This could all be bullshit though, but i'm sure its possible if you mention the cops could turn up if you brag how you have this huge meth lab under your house, using child slaves to make the meth lol.

[bcubed]

This really is two questions in one:
1. Has anyone been prosecuted for what they said online? (Yes)
2. Of those people, would any of them "gotten away with it" if they'd used SWIM?

Nobody knows the answer to 2...LEOs might know if it makes a difference as far as seeking a warrant, but they aren't going to be sharing their knowledge...and, at any rate, LEOs can only make an educated guess if SWIM would have swayed a judge to grant/not grant the warrant.

So, use SWIM, keep the forum safe, and (IMO) don't SWIM anything you wouldn't use "I" instead.

[Alfa]

Use creative writing instead of SWIM. I expect that SWIM is indeed is a very thin protection for forum members. Pink elephants bathing in soup while they hand over a note with a dream written on it, is less likely to become the basis of a prosecution.

[Richi]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Use creative writing instead of SWIM. I expect that SWIM is indeed is a very thin protection for forum members. Pink elephants bathing in soup while they hand over a note with a dream written on it, is less likely to become the basis of a prosecution.

Would posting such a suggestion compromise this method of protection against prosecution as well?

[Valseedian]

we don't use swim to keep from incriminating ourselves, we use swim to keep johny-law off Alfa's back.

as he explained, just hosting this site, and 'owning' the information makes him liable as a conspirator... even if he isn't aware that the content is being sent through, hosted on, or veiwed from his server, the 1's and 0's are still on a drive he owns, and 'ignorance is no excuse'...

and I'm sure 'not knowing' is only a reason to ask to troll through all of the data that makes up DF, hence the full PM monitoring system and other such security features.

This site is set up to stick around for a very long time, the rules are the way they are for this very reason. Don't break them...

and remember, this isn't the government... alfa really is out to help us, the individual user.. but not at the expense of his own freedom, or the privacy of DF's vast userbase.



I do, however, completely agree with the stance of not banning 'rep-abusers'... (tho I'm a bit biased, just coming back from a 1-month ban for just that reason...)...
the 'rep rules' of this forum are very different from those found on most forums, and people like me are given very little warning as to what's not acceptable before a hefty infraction is placed... I agree, ban those trading rep, or (god forbid) selling or farming rep.. but is there really a need to infract people for rep that they think was honestly deserved?

[Alfa]

Please keep the thread on topic.

[Dickon]

I just wonder whether anything said here would be admissible in court, with or without SWIM or pink elephants. Presumably it would be at best corroborative, and I doubt could have much bearing on the outcome of a case.

What I think is far more likely is that if someone is posting in the chemistry section that their pink elephant is making kilos of methamphetamine, especially if there are photos, is that law enforcement will want to start knocking on doors. The question becomes one of in what circumstances can law enforcement force this site (i.e. Alfa) to reveal information about who posted. This is clearly a somewhat technical question, although I'd be quite amused by someone going to a judge requesting details be disclosed based on a story about a pink elephant.

May all your pink elephants bathe regularly in soup

Dickon