rate wd in intensity

[VSOP~on~tap]

hello.
im 22, and have been taking opiates dailey since I was 13 years old, due to injuries and autoimmune problems.
i just wanted to compare wds.
in my opinion the WORST WD, and I will go in that order from worst 1 down to least painful as # 10 etc. and I am also posting this because so many people think that suboxone is a ticket out of addicion with no wd. but to me it has been the worse of them all.

1-BUPE/MDONE (TIED) dont fool yourselves people. if you let it, bupe will become a worse monster than you EVER could have imagined you will wish you woudl have stuck with heroin. in lasts Months and months. for the first 4-5 days you feel almost fine. and you think....Am I REALLY in the Clear?!?!? YES!!!!!!!! then day 6 hits you. then life is hell for another full year at least. It does NOT start getting better after a week or even a month. its also JUST as intense as heroin wd. of course, I used the bupe for over a year so that could be why. DO NOT MAINTAIN on this drug. becasue it sso expensive and I got cut off my drug assistence so all the sudden I went from 24 mg down to being able to affor MAYBE 1-4 mg a day. Ive found once your addicted to this drug, any dose cut is complete hell. even a regular dose is unpredictable, and after 6 hours I might be sick again. or I might feel fine for 18 hours. its so unpreditable. ive heard though that if you JUST use it to taper for 2 months TOPS that it works great. I wouldnt know.
Mdone is very comparable in wds, thats why i put them together.

#2 Poppy (pod tea, seed tea, raw opium, etc) resembles mdone and bupe wd. it LASTS forever. again you DONT start feeling better after a week like you do with short acting opies. with this shit you will wd for weeks and weeks straight and its probably a more intense wd then bupe, however it doesnt last quite as long. but they are pretty compareable

#3 Tramadol-THIS IS WAY worse than heroin wd. it feels like wd from an SSRI, Meth, AND oxy all at once. trust me dont go their. I would rather wd from straight heroin any day of the week. the depression is UNBELIEVABLE. the brain zaps are fucked up. trust me this is no kiddie drug. ever wd from effexor? imagine wd from effexor, ritilan, and oxy all at once, and thats tramadol wd.

#4 Heroin/Morphine- THe Origional intense wd. this shit is mean. MEAN. however, You DO start to feel better after a week or 2. though it still takes a year or so to start getting back to normal, and though it IS one of the most intense fast sharp wds that kick in HARD and fast, you do start to feel better pretty soon. thats why its nowhere near the above drugs whenit comes to wd.

#5 Hydrocodone-in some ways this wd is worse than morphine wd. it is HARDCORE, however again you start to feeel better after a weak. its WAY easier to kick hydros than bupes. the wd resembles heroin wd to me, infact almost identical.

#6 oxy-not too bad. nothing that scary and can Definatly be done by anyone, even if you are taking 600 mg a day or more. you crash kinda hard, but its so short lived that you get feeling better quick



Ok if anyone woudl like to share THEIR opinions, and their lists/ratings of wds PLEASE DO!!! I want to hear what other people have been through and what they have experienced. i KNOW that people will laugh at me for putting tramadol above oxys and hydros and other shit but this IS my experience. i want to hear yours. THANK YOU!
peace

[Songcycle67]

SWIM agrees with this list, especially the bit about hydrocodone. And he would probably put codeine above that. It's interesting how many people think that codeine is a relatively safe medicine as far as withdrawals are concerned. SWIM found it to be hellish...hydrocodone addiction times 5. It lasts very long, almost as long as poppies.

SWIM thinks this is due to the way it binds in the brain. It's a very sloppy binder and therefore SWIM thinks it sort of effects more parts of the brain/causes withdrawal symptoms that don't happen with more articulate opiates.

Funny, I never thought anyone would agree with SWIM about oxies being the easiest because they only take a few days.

[thebige]

When swim talks of oxy is he talking about straight oxycodone or brand name Oxycontin? Not saying your list is out of order.....just that some swims might confuse the word and then post acordingly......
Swim belives that sometimes the worst withdral is the one you are curently going thru,or just went thru.........
But swims a whiner

[Songcycle67]

Well, firstly, oxycodone is oxycontin, just in a continuous release form. Oxycodone breaks down immediately when it enters the body, and oxycontin releases slowly--hence the name: Oxycontinuous.

SWIM has withdrawn from both, most of the time oxycodone, but he doesn't feel that contin is any worse or any better. They both equate to the same potency if insufflated (as I understand it)--and if not insufflated, oxycontin is an even more bearable withdrawal due to not having to take as many/it's a time-released medicine.

[rokman nash]

My friend agrees with swibige the worst is the one swims currently going through.Dave has only done it once all the way through and it certainly wasn't fun. It was heroin,oxys,vicodin,klonopin,somas,and alcohol ,well maybe some fentanyl also
He stopped all at once(with the exception of alcohol),and had the worst WD's immaginable.It took 11 days just to feel shitty and weak.
He never went the bupe route but knows people that say its the worst.

Good thoughts

[AvidFan]

All X can say is he knows Oxycodone withdrawal is hell, he did do some fentanyl as well along the way, morphine, codeine and kratom, anything he could lay his hands on that was an opiate or opiate-like really but his main poison was the oxy.

Withdrawals are different for everyone - and although a large part is physical, there is also a very big psychological (and therefore psychosomatic) element involved as well - everyone is even more different psychologically than physically, which is why I think one person's list could well be in a different order from everyone else's - and why some people can get very severe withdrawals from the likes of codeine, where others get away more lightly. Also depends on how long the opiate has been taken, how much, etc etc.

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent point regarding the psychosomatic effect

[twoofus2]

Originally Posted by AvidFan

All X can say is he knows Oxycodone withdrawal is hell, he did do some fentanyl as well along the way, morphine, codeine and kratom, anything he could lay his hands on that was an opiate or opiate-like really but his main poison was the oxy.

Withdrawals are different for everyone - and although a large part is physical, there is also a very big psychological (and therefore psychosomatic) element involved as well - everyone is even more different psychologically than physically, which is why I think one person's list could well be in a different order from everyone else's - and why some people can get very severe withdrawals from the likes of codeine, where others get away more lightly. Also depends on how long the opiate has been taken, how much, etc etc.

I totally agree w/avidfan here. For swim oxycodone IS hell. In the worst way not only physically but mental and total lack of energy really bad. Swims w/d from alot but most recently fentanyl and now struggling w/ oxys...these are by far the very worst for swim. Alot of it IS psycological and way worse than anything swims been through physically. Maybe it has something to do w/being so super strong(mentally) and mature her whole life. Maybe her brain is just tired as hell now but its kicking her bodys butt all over the place too. And swims struggle has lasted well into the third week now. I think it could vary somewhat for anybody based on how much how long, ones own personal chemistry, lifes place, etc. Other than that lil variance the original list here seems close from what swim hears and understands.

"Where theres a will, theres a way...keep the way straight and the will strong"
~Two

[oxynomo]

O has done all the shit listed cept the bupe.The one that kicked his ass was oxy,swims still reeeling from it 40 days.Don't know wtf they were,lay down goddam whole body would like convulse.30+ days very litt-no sleep.To wsim this was enough,won't be seeing any fuckn opiates for a very long time.Anyone care to trade wds.Just kiddin would not give swims ,to his worst enemy.Couldn't imagine worse.

[Dickon]

VSOP I applaud your tenacity. To have reached the age of 22 and to have successfully completed withdrawals from the large different class of opiates described above frankly staggers me. On reaching 39, my cat (a rather long-lived breed clearly) had only managed to successfully complete w.d.s from morphine, heroin, and methadone, along with a methadone/benzodiazepine "combo-withdrawal" (will you want fries with that, sir?)

So all I can say, at least in so far as my cat is to believed, is that methadone/benzo combo-w.d. is hardest (especially as the reduction on the methadone was 200mg, 100mg, 0), then the methadone withdrawal, then I can't really separate the heroin/morphine w.d.s, except to state the obvious, that "new" habits are easy to break than "old" ones. The amount used seems to have a bearing also, but less so that one might think. The other trouble is that w.d.s are so context dependent (how you're feeling, how old you are, 1001 other things) that no two w.d.s are the same. My cat says that aging played a large part in how he experienced w.d.s.

To try to order w.d.s, many of which my cat has never done, using common sense and his experience of using different opiates without directly withdrawing from them he'd guess:

1. LAAM (This is a super-long acting opiate, Levo-Alpha Acetyl Methadol, or perhaps better, Long Acting Alternative to Methadone, a now mostly abandoned alternative to methadone, with an even longer half-life dosed usually 3 times a weeks, with the accute withdrawals supposed to last for up to 3 months. This is pure speculation, but might manage a brutality of w.d. that surpasses even methadone!)
2. Methadone (Not nice)
3. Buprenorphine (Generally considered less bad than methadone w.d., although after long term use there are some serious horror storries)
4. Heroin/Morphine/Opium/Poppy Tea/Oxycodone (Poppy Tea the same as heroin you scoff. Well, Poppy Tea contains morphine, which is the pharmacologically active metabolite of heroin. However we might well be likely to be dealing with a smaller dose (equianalgesically speaking) hence a milder withdrawal. As an aside I neither believe in the conventional wisdom that injected opiates are harder to quit than oral ones, nor do I take the oposite view as Burroughs does. I have classed Oxycodone here due to two factors. One: it is allegedly less euphoric and addictive than morpine. Two: conversely, my cat took, he thinks 600mg of Oxycodone (maybe 400mg, maybe 800, but I'm fairly sure 600) on a day he had taken methadone, and the effect/euphoria in such a situation was far higher than 600 or 900mg of morphine would have been. So these two together lead me to put it on a par with morphine etc. Caveat, do not feed your pets these doses if they are opiate naive.)
5. Hydrocodone (Little experience, but we're getting weaker, although this still seems strong enough to stop w.d. from other opiates)
6. Dihydrocodone (This doesn't seem to be able to fully reverse withdrawals to high doses of strong opiates, hence under hydrocodone)
7. Codeine (Certain people metabolize this differently, so for some this might be different. We are still talking about a full on opiate withdrawal here, as codeine is metabolized to morphine, so although this is low down, it's still unlikely to be pretty)
8. Kratom/Tramadol (A not very educated guess. Both seem to produce addiction with serious withdrawals, but don't seem to be as strong as codeine)

The original poster's idea of putting "poppy" above heroin/morphine seems topsy turvy, and simply wrong, and tramadol above heroin? All I can say is that if this is true, I'm glad my cat never used it except occasionally as prescribed by the dentist, when he noticed no opiate effects (he was taking morphine at the times in question). This is certainly not to be expected. Hydro above Oxy? Again that's not the received wisdom, but I've heard a couple of people prefering hydro- to oxy-codone.

Two things I'd be interested in are the fentanyl-type or bently compounds (i.e etorphine) which are thousands of times stonger than morphine mg for mg. Are they capable of producing significantly worse w.d. symptoms, or are they about equivalent once equianalgesic doses are factored in? Also, I'd be particularly interested in the w.d. intensity of oxymorphazone, an "irreversible" opiate agonists, i.e. one that bonds covalently to the receptor (so never leaves it) until the receptor is internalised (endocytosis is the technical term. wiki has some information on this). I speculate this compound might produce a particularly nasty w.d. but I may be completely wrong about that.

What a rant! I Hope the last bit might have at least introduced some of you to a new idea, and made it all worth reading.

May all your withdrawals be easy

Dickon

[thebige]

Come to think of it.......swim only uses straight oxycodone for breakthrough pain relief,and has never withdrawn from from it solely in its quick-acting form...... he thinks there has always been something else in the mix....at least there always seems to be anyway..............
On a side note opium(eaten,smoked) and podtea wd always seems to be almost endless.....and causes a deep throbing bone pain for swim that he dosen't get from other opies...........
Swim only uses suboxone for 3-6 days to clean up a bit......never for long periods of time,but he can see that ...along with screwing up his tolerance...that the withdrawal process could be very long given how long that crap lingers in your system............. ......

[BumpBump]

swim has never done a mdone withdrawl but hears its upto 6 weeks? but swim has used it and held of heroin withdrawl for 2-3 days on 60ml.
Swim just uses codeine when he comes off heroin now but swim is in no way a daily user of heroin and just uses it to cause the aches after a lenghty session. He finds coedeine eases his thrashing legs, and thus lets him sleep.... he cuts down on the codeine very easily into almost no withdrawl.
Swim agrees poppy tea withdrawl seems to last longer... prehaps due to the mix of active alkaloids.

So in swims experinece(and only speaking from experience and seeing what friends have been through)
1 Methadone
2 Heroin/Poppy Pods
3 Codeine Dihydracodeine

[VSOP~on~tap]

Hi Everyone. This thraed turned out to be p[retty interesting actualy, and Im surprised how many people are pretty much right on track with me. with a few exceptions.
and I will ahve to say to all yall OC heads: I wasnt saying OC wd is a cake walk!!!!!!!!!! ITS FUCKEDDDD Up! It just so happens for me that it was the easiest opiate to come off. Ill admit after big doses (5 80s for a while) you do crash REALLY hard but you arent ILL for Months like Mdone and its Nothing like Heroin/poppy. that said, ANY wd you are going through REALLY is the worst one. I mean, Honestly for one person going through codeine wd IT MAY BE JUST AS MISERABLE AS someone coming off 200 mg methadone. on the real.
and about the tramadol: trust me. If you take doses like I did (8-16 of the 50s a day) for 4 years on top of your other opiates......Man its a FUCKED UP wd.....id rather have a straight opiate wd because it really does feel like wding from Effexor And Oxycodone or something of that manner.

To the one poster. I am 22. Yes. How did I accomplish this? Its not like it was fun or anything , but honestly when you are put on daily narcotics at age 13 and told your going to hurt for the rest of your life (they gave me all the hydro 7.5s and tramadols I needed at age 13 i shit you not I have no reason to lie. I started on XAnax at 13 as well and Valium on top at the same age.....and then switched to Klonopin and have been on 6 mg ever since. and now I take temazepam 30s. its a PERFECT combop it Really doeas work for me. anyways wd from benzos BEATS ALL of these wds except methadone and bupe, to witch it ties, also alcohol.....and barbies......
um I started doing 500 mg morphine twice a day when I was maybe 16, and then heroin. I actualy took Methadone as my Second pain pill experience, 2 off the tens IT WAS HEAVEN!!! hahaa. I took bupe for almost 2 years. So yes I have wd from all these drugs. Its really isnt cool. im doing it right now cold turkey from 15-25 norcos a day alternated with 8 mg bupe........and hoyl fuck im sick as fuck but I was jsut given a few trammies and they really are takin the edge off but in like 2 more days ill be straight up cold turkey holy shit im so scared but im so ready to do it I want off forever Im so ready wish me luck

[Rainbowzz]

Dude, SWIM can attest to the fact that codeine can be a bitch. Its been seven days now and swim is still full in withdrawls.. its HELL.

but then, swim was taking it for a really long time at high doses..

[phee]

Tramadol is pure hell to come off swim still suffering after 2 months .the pains terrible and it messes your brain big time, never ever take it its like shaking hands with the devil!

[rhudson]

Originally Posted by VSOP~on~tap

hello.
im 22, and have been taking opiates dailey since I was 13 years old, due to injuries and autoimmune problems.
i just wanted to compare wds.
in my opinion the WORST WD, and I will go in that order from worst 1 down to least painful as # 10 etc. and I am also posting this because so many people think that suboxone is a ticket out of addicion with no wd. but to me it has been the worse of them all.

1-BUPE/MDONE (TIED) dont fool yourselves people. if you let it, bupe will become a worse monster than you EVER could have imagined you will wish you woudl have stuck with heroin. in lasts Months and months. for the first 4-5 days you feel almost fine. and you think....Am I REALLY in the Clear?!?!? YES!!!!!!!! then day 6 hits you. then life is hell for another full year at least. It does NOT start getting better after a week or even a month. its also JUST as intense as heroin wd. of course, I used the bupe for over a year so that could be why. DO NOT MAINTAIN on this drug. becasue it sso expensive and I got cut off my drug assistence so all the sudden I went from 24 mg down to being able to affor MAYBE 1-4 mg a day. Ive found once your addicted to this drug, any dose cut is complete hell. even a regular dose is unpredictable, and after 6 hours I might be sick again. or I might feel fine for 18 hours. its so unpreditable. ive heard though that if you JUST use it to taper for 2 months TOPS that it works great. I wouldnt know.
Mdone is very comparable in wds, thats why i put them together.

#2 Poppy (pod tea, seed tea, raw opium, etc) resembles mdone and bupe wd. it LASTS forever. again you DONT start feeling better after a week like you do with short acting opies. with this shit you will wd for weeks and weeks straight and its probably a more intense wd then bupe, however it doesnt last quite as long. but they are pretty compareable

#3 Tramadol-THIS IS WAY worse than heroin wd. it feels like wd from an SSRI, Meth, AND oxy all at once. trust me dont go their. I would rather wd from straight heroin any day of the week. the depression is UNBELIEVABLE. the brain zaps are fucked up. trust me this is no kiddie drug. ever wd from effexor? imagine wd from effexor, ritilan, and oxy all at once, and thats tramadol wd.

#4 Heroin/Morphine- THe Origional intense wd. this shit is mean. MEAN. however, You DO start to feel better after a week or 2. though it still takes a year or so to start getting back to normal, and though it IS one of the most intense fast sharp wds that kick in HARD and fast, you do start to feel better pretty soon. thats why its nowhere near the above drugs whenit comes to wd.

#5 Hydrocodone-in some ways this wd is worse than morphine wd. it is HARDCORE, however again you start to feeel better after a weak. its WAY easier to kick hydros than bupes. the wd resembles heroin wd to me, infact almost identical.

#6 oxy-not too bad. nothing that scary and can Definatly be done by anyone, even if you are taking 600 mg a day or more. you crash kinda hard, but its so short lived that you get feeling better quick



Ok if anyone woudl like to share THEIR opinions, and their lists/ratings of wds PLEASE DO!!! I want to hear what other people have been through and what they have experienced. i KNOW that people will laugh at me for putting tramadol above oxys and hydros and other shit but this IS my experience. i want to hear yours. THANK YOU!
peace

In order of decreasing severity:

Methadone, Heroin/morphine, Suboxone (buprenorphine), Kratom

[infekt]

1. Methadone
2. Buprenorphine
3. Heroin

from swim's experience

[yulamada]

Based on my badgers personal experiences going CT with little to no taper.


Short Term WD
1. Oxycontin: <5 days hardest, >5 days its the end of his list.
2. Oxycodone: Similar to Oxycontin but a day or 2 less of physical hell.
3. Heroin: Physically manageable compared to gut wrenching Oxycontin kick in first 5 days. Your local supply may vary

Long Term WD
1a. Heroin
1b. Heroin!
1c. HEROIN!!!
2. Oxycodone
3. Oxycontin

Heroin WD, psychological effects (PAWS), is taking my badger WAY longer than expected. My badger has been hitting his anxiety-ridden head against the floorboard for thinking that the lighter physical part meant it would be 'easier' (as if it can ever be easy) to withdraw from H than the Oxy twins in the long run. My badger's vet had him on BP for a little while before the hairy bastard relapsed. He went 3 days with no BP (before getting back on the Horse) and thinks BP wd might be pretty bad. When it started to come on, it was a freight train. But it was nothing a little fix didn't fix, unfortunately.

The little guy thinks it may have to do somewhat with the fact that after Oxy's he still insufflated various nefarious substances with his little snout, giving his grey matter a little psych-out via the physical action of snorting. Whereas with H, all needles have been banished from the den, and he can't foresee IV'ing anything in the near future to try and trick his head. That would 'hit' too close to home.

[Ilsa]

^^ oxycodone is the active opioid in oxycontin (the brand name)...the wd's are about the same...if the oxcontin is extended release and is administered orally there could definitely be a difference in wd's, given how profoundly half-life affects length and severity of wd's, although swiy's list seems to have this reversed.

my cat wishes you the best with this struggle...maybe swiy would be interested in starting a thread prefixed as a journal to document his ordeal. this can be a tremendous source of support, as well as a means of venting the frustration and pain.

[Naked Lunch]

I certainly wouldn't put tramadol above Heroin, not by a long shot. All I can say is, if one thinks tramadol WD is worse than heroin WD then ones likely never had a real Heroin habit in which to WD from.
Real Heroin WD is only second to methadone IMO, both are similar but Methadone lasts longer is all.

[VSOP~on~tap]

no, that is SIMPLY YOUR EXPERIENCE. you can not deny the experience of others.
the reason tram wd gets me so bad is that its like coming off effexor AND oxy at the same time. its UTTER hell and much different than heroin wd (which I REALLY would choose over a 16 a day tram habit wd seriously the shit WILL MAKE YOU SUICIDAL)
you cant tell me what drugs I have or have not been "Really" addicted to, "for reals" or some shit. i mean that with all respects. see I think YOU, have NEVER had to break a hardcore tram addiction (5 years or so on 10-16 a day topped with morphine and norcos).

[Naked Lunch]

Originally Posted by VSOP~on~tap

no, that is SIMPLY YOUR EXPERIENCE. you can not deny the experience of others.
the reason tram wd gets me so bad is that its like coming off effexor AND oxy at the same time. its UTTER hell and much different than heroin wd (which I REALLY would choose over a 16 a day tram habit wd seriously the shit WILL MAKE YOU SUICIDAL)
you cant tell me what drugs I have or have not been "Really" addicted to, "for reals" or some shit. i mean that with all respects. see I think YOU, have NEVER had to break a hardcore tram addiction (5 years or so on 10-16 a day topped with morphine and norcos).

Swim was taking about 1000mg of tramadol a day for about 8-12 months and was well and truly addicted to it, WD wasn't pleasant but it was nothing next to a $600 a day Heroin habit.

[drug-bot]

Originally Posted by VSOP~on~tap

#2 Poppy (pod tea, seed tea, raw opium, etc) resembles mdone and bupe wd. it LASTS forever. again you DONT start feeling better after a week like you do with short acting opies. with this shit you will wd for weeks and weeks straight and its probably a more intense wd then bupe, however it doesnt last quite as long. but they are pretty compareable

dont see how this could be true (not doubting swiys personal experiences but doesnt unstand how it could be) as poppy tea/opium just contains morphine and codeine as well some other minor active opiates and some inactive substances.

[VSOP~on~tap]

hahahhaha
again with all due respect (because I DO respect you)---WHAT do you mean; JUST MORPHINE!?!?!?!??!? hahah
morphine IS the standard and classic opiate. and with poppies its EASY to get HUGE fucking doses of M im talking 500 mg up to a gram or more.....thats quite alot when you consider the fact that they claim morphine and hydro to be equipotent.
when you do heroin, your really doing morphine. morphine doses can be pushed forever.
apperently you never got into poppies? i mean thats GOOD!! hahah. but......if your in the know youll understand how truley powerful poppies are (and Im talking both seeds and pods)
I can get higher off 4 dollars worth of seeds than off 300 fucking dollars worth of oxycodone. infact probably some of the best highs of my life were on poppies (with a large tolerance i might add........(somewhere along the lines of a kilo of seeds was a pretty standard dose to me when TWO ounces STILL gets my oxy addict friend nodding out so hard hes blacking out EVERY time he takes it. ive heard many people say not to go over a qp, however with my tolerance I cant go below a pound.

I hope this explained my view, and I hope i didnt come across as a dick or anything! just kinda wanted to explain what Ive been through. I know that does seem odd when im comparing it to MDONE and BUPE wd.......the two rottenest fuckers I can even think of. but for me thats been my experience (again i went overboard on the poppy doses so that would explain my wds)
peace

[Leftöver Crack]

swim is mystified anyone thinks detoxing from oxy is "easy". swim has detoxed from MANY diffirent things, and oxy was the worst.

dope and morphine invade your body; pharmaceutical opiate drugs are specifically formulated to invade your body and your mind. maybe there are some pharm drugs swim hasn't detoxed from that are worse, but oxy is the worst pharm drug swim has detoxed from and therefor the worst.

[VSOP~on~tap]

see naked lunch, thats the difference. i realize you were OBVIOUSLY addicted/dependent on the tram after what you just said.....but you only took it 8 months to a year tops. thats 20 pills a day.........
but I took 16 pills a day of the shit for 5 years straight along with my prescribed hydrocodone etc...anyways I understand that for you it wasnt as bad as others. but for ME, it was the most TERRIBLE wd. seriously makes you suicidal and get hardcore brain zaps along with the shitting your pants puking freezing sweating etc. it ALSO makes my bones ach (even when Im ON IT, which is why Ill never touch it again in my life.

leftover crack: for me, Oxycodone is THE Weakest high from ANY opiate. it takes SOOO fucking much for my alligator to get high. he CANT even believe the rediculous claims that it is 1.5 times as strong as hydro cause in HIS experience, 8 norcos would get him 3 times as wasted (in a HEAVY nodding way) than an oc80. infact the 80 mg hydro would get him higher than 2 or 3 hundred mg oxy. I guess its just his personal chemical makeup cuase his whoel family is the same way. CANT feel oxy, but get wasted off even low doses of hydro. He cant nod on oxy thats probably why he doesnt like it. he ends up killing at leats 5 and hes not nodding...more like on some MILD speed.
so for those reasons.....the wd also Never seemed to touch me. I mean I wd harder off codeine than I do off oc. i think its THE MOST overrated drug in the WORLD. trust me if hydro CAME in higher doses without the apap (some hydrocontins) people would LOVE them i think thats the ONLY reason people think oxy is a stronger drug/high.........Id take a 60 3 times a day with a few fent lozenges for breakthrough pain over hell even 2 80s three times a day, with breakthrough meds.

THough Id like to aknowledge that I DO believe you and i AM SURE that for you , and many others, oxy wd is a BITCH infact the worst for some people. hell, for SOME people its just as if not more painful to come off codeine than for another person coming off 100 mg methadone cold turkey. its all relative to the individual and ANY wd can be the WORST. so i understand what you mean.