Can 2 addicts in a relationship ever get clean together?

[msmogadon]

SWIM has been with her fiancee now for 4 years. She loves him very much and can't imagine living without him.
They are both addicted to heroin. SWIM wants to get clean very much but has so far been unsuccessful in her feable attempts to kick the monkey. SWIM's partner works away and will get clean while away only to relapse immediately on his return. SWIM will stop using heroin while he is away and switch on to methadone (30-50mls daily). SWIM will also relapse on his return. It is inevitable that this happens as SWIM has to help him as he won't do it for himself which leads to SWIM doing it too.

SWIM asked me to ask the smart folks on the drugs forum if any of them know of any couples that have successfully managed to kick it and stay together. SWIM wants to know what is the secret of their success.
Can it ever work out?

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good question
	good starter topic,generating lots of self-awareness and debate.thanks

[MarkyMayhem]

Sure, it happens.
But in my observation, both need to want to get clean, and apply themselves at the same time, or it's hopeless..

Reputation Comments on this post:

SWIM agrees. This is pretty much the long and short of it.

[infekt]

swim has known of one couple who met in rehab and got it straight, both with crack addictions. They ended up marrying and both are now very successfull with two children.

On the other hand, swim met a girl in rehab and it led to 2 years of terrible relapse. Swim will see how things pan out however, he has been clean for a little while and his girl friend just started up on methadone.

Will keep you posted!

[yaba]

It would be hard but not imposible.... Swim's relationships usually break up due to his drug using.

Just have to make a start date together.. Not easy but..
Good luck to the both of you !!

[Dickon]

Moggster, nice to see you here again.

I am going to go all Zen on you and say you should "care without caring", or at least try to. I'm not sure how well versed you are on codependence. I've always been a bit sneery at psychobabble, and codependence is definitely veering towards an over-therapeutic worldview. That said, it is useful way of looking at what often goes wrong in relationships, where you lose your sense of self in the "significant other" (yep - I'm going full-on into therapy-speak!). If you live totally for the other person, and invest your own emotional well being significantly or exclusively in the hands of another person, rather than taking personal responsibility for your own development/well-being/point-of-view/behaviour/fill-in-whatever-here then you are in danger. If the other person is doing the same thing, then you end up with two snakes biting each others tails. There is no external input and the relationship spirals inwards and implodes. This somewhat graphic metaphor is why in most cases using-relationships fail to work. The addictive personality is likely to get too caught up in the other person, and substitute the addiction to the substance for an addiction to or codependence with the partner.

So, what can you do to make such a relationship work. My number one piece of advice would be to limit contact: for each partner to have autonomy, and to be responsible for their development, well-being, hobbies, etc. There needs to be a significant amount of "looking outwards" to avoids the snakes-biting-each-others-tails problem.

As far as I know beena from on here is trying to do just this, and when I last read (although this was some time ago) she and her partner were doing ok. The real problem is being in a situation where if the partner used, so would you. This is the care without caring part. It's not that you don't care, it's that you don't manifest such care by putting yourself out. This is codenpendence, and any real love in a relationship must start from self-love. If you love yourself, and you've got clean, you'll not relapse if the partner does. Neither can you blame your partner, you must take responsibility for yourself.

Usually it is far easier for people to learn responsibility, and self-love outside of a relationship. You will need to feel whole as a single person before you can ever have a successful relationship. "Using" another person to fill a hole or void is a recipe for disaster. Distinguish true love from needy fear of abandonment, loss of self-esteem etc. and you'll go far.

If the relationship is strong it will endure you both spending some time apart. But remember people can be addictive, but love is not about clinginess and neediness. Love is also about saying no to your partner when you need to, and asserting your autonomy.

Care without caring (i.e. without clinging, without being needy) and you'll be cared for back, but it's not easy

Dickon [ooppppsss where did all that come from! Don't take what I say too seriously, it's just a view, and I'm no Freud!]

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Great post!
	For time and effort invested in intelligent advice, free psychological service for an unknown other.
	D is such a support for many many people here... thank you very very much!
	twelve years of counciling and i've never had a councilor tell me sumthin as useful as this

[rokman nash]

My friend Dave thinks that getting and staying clean is a very personal choice.Swim cannot base her personal situation and sobriety on another to be successful.It sounds like when apart swim and mate have had success,then when back together revert to old ingrained habits.

So as Drd has mentioned some time apart could be beneficial to both parties.Dave has known several couples who have tried to quit together without success,but after going their separate ways have been successful,THEN resumed their relationship.

Good luck good thoughts

Reputation Comments on this post:

Solid Advice.

[EyesOfTheWorld]

SWIM is assuming you live with your fiance and neither of you really has anywhere else to go for a "separation period" while you each get clean.
SWIM has not tried to quit drugs, he loves them, they love him back etc, but he has seen other people do it successfully, some of them couples. He advises:
Delete all dealer's #'s from cell phones, datebooks and memory
Get rid of any remaining drugs, either by "one last hurrah" or by throwing them down the toilet.
Suffering through wd is actually easier when you have a companion that is suffering too and knows what you are going through, rather than a judgemental person, or alone, or with someone where you have to pretend to have the flu.
Support each other as much as you can during the wd's. SWIM is assuming dopesickness will be involved so he doubts that the advice to get out of the house and go be with other people will work until after the actual wd's. If you are feeling well enough to go to the kitchen for water, bring him a glass. If he has to help you to the bathroom to puke, so be it. No one said this was easy.
Assuming the two of you will be basically housebound until the wd's are over, try to maintain semi-normal human behavior. Sleep if you can, try to eat-if not well enough to attempt cooking, order some delivery, if not well enough to eat at least get vitamins and water in you.
use all the usual wd tricks, listed in many other threads but SWIM will just say Immodium, pepto, water, vitamins and magnesium. If SWIYs goal is to get off all drugs permanently it is best to avoid common wd-helpers like benzos, kratom and DXM. If SWIY is only intending to quit heroin, these 3 are encouraged to get SWIY through the worst of it. Having a partner to remind you to take your supplements helps.
Once full-on wd is over and you and he again are well enough to venture outside, do so. Do NOT go to anywhere that heroin is used or sold, and you both may have to temporarily cut your friends that use out of your life (most of them will understand why, there's a piece of every junkie that wants to get clean).
That's the best SWIM could come up with on short notice.

Reputation Comments on this post:

some excellent tips for detoxing and avoiding detox

[msmogadon]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. SWIM and her partner are completely different in that SWIM has not really had a clean break for about a year now (and even that was only 2 weeks). SWIM's bf gets clean every time he goes away to work (which is every 3 weeks for 3 weeks at a time). He does not really desire to get clean and stay clean where as SWIM can't get clean but really wants to be.
If SWIM could actually get clean she feels that she would be strong enough not to use again. SWIM went to rehab for a detox last Christmas and used because her partner was when she got out. She has learned from this experience and would not care to repeat this cock up as it has lead to a another year of using.
SWIM feels like she has developed a phobia of withdrawal. They have done time apart in the past but SWIM could not get clean. They already spend a lot of time apart any more and there would be no relationship! SWIM thinks she already knows the answer to her own question. Situation hopeless.

[EyesOfTheWorld]

Originally Posted by msmogadon

SWIM thinks she already knows the answer to her own question. Situation hopeless.

That's the kind of thinking that will make SWIY's situation "hopeless". Right now SWIyou is far from hopeless from what SWIM has read.

[Jasim]

One of the greatest difficulties for an addict is overcoming the constant environmental cues. Many success stories of quitting involve a change in environment. There are numerous anecdotal reports of people stopping use while in rehab, only to relapse once they return to their former environments.

Swim can attest to the power of changing environment. Swim was an alcoholic (6+ drinks every night for over 3 years) and finally was able to quite after moving to a new town and breaking contact with old friends.

[Spucky]

Swim never saw a couple staying together after they quit it.
Swim saw some they try but later they start up again.

But it will really depend on the Time both are hooked!

[johnnyyen]

Originally Posted by Spucky

Swim never saw a couple staying together after they quit it.
Swim saw some they try but later they start up again.

But it will really depend on the Time both are hooked!

SWIM Remembers his last habit (of 5 years) was triggered by a relationship starting with another user..whilst they lived together for around three years and attempted all manner of home and away detox and rehabs,their cycle of using didnt stop..they were little more then drug buddies living together..
it took SWIM another two years to get clean,whilst raising their autistic son..SWIMs experiences during the relationship and its aftermath make him very cynical about any chance of two people cleaning up together,although he likes to think it is not impossible..

[Agent Subby]

SWIM has been a heroin addict for 16 years and met a fellow addict in India, but the relationship soon turned from excellent to non existent within a month of returning to the UK. Oh, and SWIM's doctor said two addicts in a relationship is doomed to failure, so it must be true that 2 addicts in a relationship can never get clean together. //// rolls eyes...

Agent Subby added 1 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by johnnyyen

SWIM Remembers his last habit (of 5 years) was triggered by a relationship starting with another user..whilst they lived together for around three years and attempted all manner of home and away detox and rehabs,their cycle of using didnt stop..they were little more then drug buddies living together..
it took SWIM another two years to get clean,whilst raising their autistic son..SWIMs experiences during the relationship and its aftermath make him very cynical about any chance of two people cleaning up together,although he likes to think it is not impossible..

True dat.

[Spucky]

Originally Posted by johnnyyen

..SWIMs experiences during the relationship and its aftermath make him very cynical about any chance of two people cleaning up together,although he likes to think it is not impossible..

Love is a very Powerful Chemical Reaction in our Brain and "everything is possible"

[twoofus2]

kinda going thru this right now AND as bad as I dont wanna think it thinking co dependency

Reputation Comments on this post:

adds little to the discussion. try elaborate and share swiy's experience in a bit more detail. OP will appreciate it

[debbydoesdamage]

SWIM and her husband both use and are equally addicted. The two times they have made a concerted effort to quit (detox, AA, NA, psychotherapy, etc) They have done well together as long as they both maintained the DESIRE TO STAY CLEAN. Both times however, out of boredom, stress, whatever it was.....the 'pink cloud' dissipated and their desire to be clean gave way to the desire to get high. SWIM's husband was much more fearful of getting re-hooked and for a time, they would argue when SWIM wanted to score to often. Over time, they found themselves right back to where they were pre-detox. As of now, SWIM and her husband talk about quitting from time to time, mostly out of financial necessity. SWIM doesn't think either would quit if there were an endless supply as they manage to be "functional" addicts, using only enough to stay well until the responsibilities of the day are taken care of.

IMO if SWIY wants to get clean, she might try talking to her S/O about their use and how it plays into the relationship. At the end of the day, SWIM doesn't think there is much chance for a successful relationship if both partners are not fully committed to recovery. Leaving SWIY with a choice to make if her boyfriend does not want to quit and she does......the relationship VS. recovery......hard choice to be sure. hth, and I'm sending support your way.

[Ilsa]

this is a tough situation for swiy and swim feels for her...swiy seems to be well aware that both individuals in a relationship must want to get clean. swiy realizes she seserves a better situation, but when she tries to make it so, she's basically going it alone with no support from the one person from whom she wants and needs it most. swim has had to leave someone like this behind, and it is a sad thing. if both decide they want to try together, moving and minimizing the environmental cues jasim mentioned could work, so there is some hope, but only if swiy's partner makes the decision to get clean and support swiy being clean too. why would he use in front of her after she's just been through rehab, and knowing she WANTS to stay clean? swim is not trying to sound harsh, but swiy is being treated harshly, and she deserves at least the respect of her partner not using in front of her in that situation.

how have swiy's thoughts on the subject evolved over the last few weeks?

swiy is in swim's thoughts, and sends her support

[englishkid]

if 2 addicts meet in a re-hab or in clean environment, there is only two people meeting, no drugs to romanticise it or keep them bound in an addictive relationship. It doesnt work if you use together. Youre just junk-partners that fuck. Just dont spawn any poor addicted babies like swim did. Swim thought his would last 4eva and the heroin and crack romanticised it all and like swiy, swim used to pop off to jail for a while now and then and she continued to use so when swim got out he went back to drugs.
Yore not sharing each others beings, your beings sharing drug times. Swims partner would depend on swim to feed her habit untill swim got pissed off and agreed to her prostituting It went from there. She wasnt the sweet little cute chick I could get high with anymore. Plus in your environment the gear will come first. If you remove the gear from the relantionship, you will look around and think, what the fuck am I doing here? Swiy is intelligent and good looking( swim knows u dnt 4get!) dont limit yourself to what you have settled for because the heroin has romanticised it all. But my point of view may be a bit ski-wiff. It didnt work for me but it could for you. Whats good for peter aint for paul.

Go get a lawyer or a doctor. Take mamma's advice.......
Ps- Moggie, must be swim who's got the 22 april booked at sara glatt's in the dam for Ibogaine!! swim cant believe swim actually going.

[tyranny4u]

Can 2 addicts in a relationship ever get clean together?

yes. if you leave them on an uninhabited island where they can live from coconuts,
fish and mangos.

sorry for my sarcasm.

Reputation Comments on this post:

adds little to the discussion; you're right sarcasm it's helpful to the OP

[Laudaphun]

From what SWIM has seen and experienced, only few can survive in this case. Out of all the drug-using friends SWIM had, only the 2 who were her friend before the drug use began survived. SWIM has no experience with relationships, as she has always been too afraid to get close to anyone at risk of getting hurt, since that was what caused her addictions way back in the beginning. Now, SWIM has been trying to bury her past and lead a normal life, be a law abiding citizen, and help others... but it seems like that past has always come back and bit SWIM in the ass. Sorry, SWIM is a bit disgruntled at the moment.

[H Bomber]

It would seem that the only time SWIM and his girlfriend of 6 years can stay clean is when they are apart. Actually, no, it doesn't just seem that way, it is definitely that way. It's unfortunate but true in SWIM's case that his relationship is utterly toxic in this respect, but, just like with heroin, the knowledge of this has failed to deter him.

[Benniboi]

Swim was with his partner for 3 years- when they met, she was a clean, church going, naive 18 year old girl who had to swims knowledge, just come out of an abusive relationship with some 33 yr old man. Swim had knocked his usage down to about once a week and was working. But eventually the drugs consumed both of them. Swim felt he had a better platform than most to work with because it wasn't the drugs that brought them together initally, but when you're both using, all it takes is that 'look' at each other when you have money and that's it. She ended up cheating on swim with someone else who to swims knowledge she is still with today, but the way the drugs affected her morality didn't suprise swim. It's a sad way to finish something but swim feels partly responsible for her troubles. I think generally two addicts together make it twice as hard to get clean.

[Laudaphun]

SWIM has witnessed yet another case of this not working. It is possible, in SWIM's opinion for a relationship between 2 addicts to permit sobriety, however at least one of the two must be VERY strong, to make up for the weakness of the other (on top of their own). That can be done, but would be unusual and the exception. I think that getting clean together would be difficult if that was what the relationship was originally founded on. But, a long-term relationship where drugs were not a part their lives, perhaps might have a better chance at rebounding from addiction.

The problem is that often, when people get together, one at least is using or addicted to something already, if not both. SWIM rarely sees many relationships that were founded before drugs entered either partner's life, which then evolve into addiction. Sometimes one partner will have a drug problem which is hidden from the other as it is unacceptable to their partner, and then later uncovered and then that person must make a decision between drugs and their partner. Sometimes one person cleans up and becomes very against drugs as they get older and then their partner who was originally very against drugs will become addicted to a different substance. For instance, one uses cocaine and their partner is very against it. They get older and have kids and cocaine use is left in the past and years later the former "anti-drug" partner becomes addicted to pain pills. The once cocaine addicted partner who is now against drug use, but has a hard time and the relationship never jeopardizes his sobriety but does jeopardize the relationship. This is something SWIM has witnessed. Just one particular instance... probably one of many possible scenarios. Joint counseling may be something to think about if SWIY think you are in a situation like this and are one of the few who might be able to bear the burden of each other's addiction.

[DeeZee]

From SWIM's personal experience it definitelly becomes at least twice as hard for each person in the couple, if not more.

SWIM and his GF got addicted together, quit together several times, but when they really got addicted, they tried and tried to quit, but it just didn't work, at that point the addiction was too strong.

SWIM and his GF would try, they would stop buying (more due to being out of money than anything else), but then they would both start bugging and accusing each other of wanting more, wishing for the other to fail, so they could go buy more together without feeling guilty.... They were both very aware of what they were doing (trying to get the other to admit that they want more, accusing the other of leading them into temptation), it was actually funny at times. But it always ended with the two buying more, at which point it stopped being funny....

Neither of them could quit, until SWIM moved back to his home town for a longer period of time, during which SWIM's GF went to a clinic and started with Subutex. She had a hard first few days, but made it through. In turn, SWIM was encouraged to do the same, and he did, in the end they both left H behind them, deleted all the possible contacts, that could lead them to it, and started living a normal life...


Unfortunatelly, they later separated for good. No longer a couple. At around that time, SWIM's now ex-GF started getting so annoyed with the clinic and their rules, that she simply stopped going there completelly, and tried to quit Subutex as well. This resulted in many cranky calls to SWIM begging for a small piece of his daily dose. SWIM had the highest privilegues at that time (only had to go to the clinic once a week for a weeks worth of Subutex pills - and a lot of them too, SWIM's doctor seems to like high doses), so SWIM was able to help, by sending her smaller and smaller quantities every other day or so, or whenever he got a cranky phone call...

In the end SWIM's GF (or rather ex) got completelly clean, no longer even used Subutex, but she did use a lot of pot to help her get through it. She never relapsed back to H, and only once tried Subutex since (when SWIM made a big mistake visiting her for New Years) - made her really stoned, due to the by then long abstinence and low or zero tolerance.... But that was it for her, no more opiates or opioids (or at least so SWIM hopes, but has no way of knowing for sure, due to not wanting to know of his ex-GF's existance anymore).


Unfortunatelly it didn't go so well for SWIM.. That one single visit to his ex made him very depressed, and it made him want to try H "one last time" before leaving the city she lived in (he could never get H in his home town, had no connections here. Well, actually, the connections were so bad, he would rather be without than buy the crappiest stuff available at twice the cost).


This "one last time" resulted in a five month heroin relapse for SWIM, which almost ruined his life, which was going very well before that point. Before the reintroduction of heroin, SWIM was off it for over two years, and never really wanted back on. But that "one last time" got him back into the addiction almost instantly, and worse than ever before. What used to be a daily supply at the very beginning, ended up becoming a single line ten times per day in this last relapse.

It started with such a high dose, due to SWIM being on Subutex... It took a high dose to feel anything at all. And then it just kinda stuck.... SWIM stopped using Subutex, and started stashing it instead, and continued with his weekly visits to his GF's city, but only to score a weekly supply and drive back home. Sometimes he bought even more. And as most people know, it's hard to be moderate, when you have a huge pile in front of you... (You just want to feel that high again, and try with higher or more often doses, or whatever. It was always easiest for SWIM to keep the dose low, by buying daily. Buying a "weeks" supply at once, would almost always double the usage....)


Problem was, SWIM didn't really want to be on heroin, it was ruining his life, taking all his money away again, and completelly demotivated him from doing any work at all (or at least as little as possible).


But SWIM was scared of going back on Subutex. He could clearly remember the two or three days of physical suffering he went through, when switching from H to Subutex the first time... What made things even worse was, that the clinic stopped providing SWIM with Subutex, and started giving him Subuxone instead. Swim was worried it would not work as well, or not at all, since he was used to snorting the subutex, and the booklet he got before the switch told him, that Subuxone could not be snorted without the Naloxone kicking in..


SWIM kept planning for when he would quit. Trying to figure out where best to place the 2 or 3 days of the worst suffering. Ideally somewhere in the middle of the week, when noone could see him...

If SWIM ran out of H shortly before the weekend, he had no other choice, but to go buy more, cos he couldn't afford to withdraw on weekends. This dragged on for pretty much exactly five months. And then SWIM somehow found an almost magical, completelly pain-free way of switching off of heroin onto Subutex in a single day.

SWIM still can not understand how he pulled it off. His last relapse was the worst addiction ever. Never before did he use quantities even close to this high! And yet the withdrawals started where they should usually end (and SWIM should know, he's been through them so many times he stopped counting)..


SWIM is now happy to report, that he is completelly free of heroin, that he had an immense pleasure in deleting his one and only contact - the only way to even get it (involving a three to four hour round trip to another city!)..

And even weirder, SWIM is now on a lower buprenorphine dose, than ever before, during the entire course of the maintenance therapy.


Funnily enough, the very day SWIM quit heroin, the clinic decided to test everyone who came in there that day. SWIM knew he was "busted", he knew everything they would find in his urine (a whole list of things - there was this party he was on that weekend, but SWIM is not ashamed of using MDMA a couple of times per year on a party - it did him more good than any therapist ever could), and SWIM stopped going to the clinic.

He knew he had a stash of Suboxone, that should last him at least five months. Longer, if he decided to taper off (which he did). And now he is already on just a third of the original dose, which would translate into a year and a half worth of stash of the substitute drug from the clinic...

Another interesting thing is, that SWIM's cravings for the substitute drug have all but dissapeared. Buprenorphine never really gave him any kind of buzz, but he did feel the need to take it. But not anymore. Instead of six times per day, he now only takes it once or twice per day, and much less than before, and is continuously reducing the dose..


SWIM has no need to go back to the clinic, he hated going there anyway, even just once a week was too much, because his own mother works at another part of that same clinic, and she has no clue, and SWIM would like to keep it that way (as you can imagine, it was hard for SWIM to even start going there for this very reason)....


But right now, things couldn't possibly be better for SWIM. He regained the passion for his work, and started rebuilding his life very quickly! SWIM hates heroin, doesn't even want to think of it, and is very happy, about the fact, that he barelly even needs the substitute drug anymore.


But the thing that makes SWIM the happiest is the miraculus, completelly pain-free way of how he quit heroin and switched to Subutex (- the little which was left - now Suboxone) over a single night!



SWIM would like to go back to the clinic one last time tho. Just for their statistics, so they don't write him off as a failure. SWIM wants to show his doctor, that he is completelly clean, and happy with it..

[piggyinthemiddle]

I don't know if there is a definitve answer to the OP. I thought perhaps you may be interested to hear of SWIMs experience of the subject though.

SWIM split up with his GF of 8 years last summer. They were using the whole time they were together, except for the first few months. She was clean when swim met her.

SWIM's GF tried getting clean and a couple of times they both managed to stop using Heroin and stabilise on a Methadone script.

There was always a relapse, and the problem is, if one relapses, the other has a free excuse to follow suit. In fact when they discussed it, they admitted , they were both hoping the other one would lose resolve, so they would have that excuse!!

SWIM always thought that his GF would never get clean while they were together - he still enjoys using too much. Just before they split up they had both been steady on a Meth script for a few months.

Straight after the split, SWIM went back to using, albeit intermittently at first.

The ex GF is clean now and has been since New Year.

I am 100% sure that they were Co-dependant, and there is more hope for both of them now they are apart.