Journal - Here we go....

[PsychoActivist]

Wednesday, February 4th, 2009

Well, SWIPA has been using Poppy Pods everyday about 3-6 times a day for a little over 6 months now. Plus whatever pills he could get his hands on. Recently he went through a script of 120 7.5/325 mg Endocets (Oxycodone).He was maintaining - able to go to work everyday - always showed up on time. This gave him the financial means to support his habit and then some. He was only a temp however, and a few days ago they let him go. He still has some money saved up in his bank account but he needs to keep it in there. On top of that, if the temp agency (who he is still technically employed by), has another assignment for him, they WILL without a doubt, drug test him before it begins and if he fails he WILL be terminated. He cannot afford this. Even all through his 6 month addiction, work has always come first. Without work = no money for his "dope".

SWIPA is down to his last 3 pods (not really enough to do anything so he is about to just throw them away). Until this afternoon, he went 36 hours cold turkey just to see what he was in for and the pain and cold sweats were too much and he made himself a cup with 25 grams of pods (a low dose for him). It has helped slightly but he is still a little sick and he knows what he is in for over the next few days.

SWIPA (as embarrasing as it is) lives with his parents at 27 years old. He had to move back in with them after a nasty breakup with his x-wife and a trip to a detox center for alcohol withdrawals (which he will add, was, and still is, successful).

Today he admitted to his parents what this "strange tea" was he had been drinking. He was shocked to see how shocked they were when they found out. He always kinda thought they knew and just never said anything. He can recall a phone call from his mother one day where she said something to the effect of "A package came for you in the mail. It's leaking something all over the floor. Some kind of seeds. They look like little Poppy seeds".
Well mom, you were right. Poppy seeds they were. I still have 2 gallon freezer bags full. Wanna make some bagles with these fuckers before I throw them out??

Anyway, by admitting this to his parents, since he lives with them, he has certainly fucked himself out of being able to order anymore. This is a good thing. This is what he wanted. His mother also gave him 12 mg's of Alprazolam to help him through the next few days. She told him that was it and that she can't do this anymore. SWIPA always used to hound his mom for pills making some excuse or another why he needs them. This time, the boy who cried wolf, really, really needs them.

Through the next few weeks I will be adding to this journal, documenting SWIPA's opiate withdrawal. No Methadone. No other drugs except 12 mg's of Alprazolam (SWIPA used to take 12 mg's in a night - easy.) He will have to be careful and play it real cool with them.

As of now it is 4:57 pm. He drank his last (very small) cup of tea at 2:20 pm and just took 2 mg's of Alprazolam.

Now at 5:07 he has given all his remaining seeds, stems, and last 3 pods, to his parents to dispose of. There are no other opiates or opioids or anything that acts on the opioid receptors, for that matter, left in the house.

Here we go..

[Dickon]

PA,

It's going to be a weird and wonderful few days and nights. What can I say that is useful? Not a great deal, except that I, or was it my cat, took a similar journey a few months back. I found writing about it on here absolutely invaluable. A few days back my wife said I was pretty much going loopy before I discovered this site, and being able to talk about anything and everything at any time was invaluable. If you are sleepless, you can always read it, on the "Screaming in the night air" thread. There's also "Patient X's story" and "Decent into Oblivion", which will between them give you a fair chunk of reading should you need something to do! Positive stories might help with your resolve.

In practical terms, if there's any chance of getting some clonidine or lofexidine it will help a fair bit with the w.d.s. If you are going to get hold of clonidine, make sure you know about the implications for blood pressure.

It seems like you've got a proper turkey on your hands, rather than the option of some kind of taper. Stay strong, and gird your loins for a struggle. My cat has been through a couple of w.d.s in his day, and says to tell you that the mental component, i.e. keeping a sense of humour, and a terminator-like shear bloody-mindedness, will be your weapons. If you feel like doing psychic or physical violence, go to the "Smack the Monkey" thread and abuse the fuck out of that "monkey on your back". It's good for the soul.

I'm rooting for you!!

Dickon [positive vibes - and remember the worse the w.d. the better the story it will be after you've finished it!]

Reputation Comments on this post:

Informative post with references to other threads which the original poster will find helpful and the suggestion of clon...

[PsychoActivist]

Thanks Dickon,
I was hoping to see you reply here. I have always enjoyed reading your posts here and I have read bits and pieces of the threads you are speaking of and will definitely read them in their entirety now. As for the Clonodine, luckily enough, SWIPA has a whole bottle full of the .3 mg's which he has gotten from his brother who no longer takes them. He realizes that the .3's are actually quite strong and he will most likely split them in half
He had completely forgot about them till you mentioned them. Between those, the "now" 10 mg's of Alprazolam, Loperamide for the runs, small doses (30-60 mg's) of DXM , and also some diphenhydramine to help sleep, SWIPA feels he can really work through this.

Thanks again for your support.

[AvidFan]

Haven't got time to say a lot, but just want to say I'm behind you 100% in your effort, my friend Patient X and Rok's friend Dave are living proof you can get through the turkey, and the aftermath, and keep going - no matter what. Keep this thread updated - funnily, writing about the experience can help make one feel far less isolated, and people here will know exactly what SWIY is going through.

Stay strong, remember the unpleasantness will fade, and if you can get through turkey, quite often it gives you a lasting strength for other stuff.

All the best to you and good luck

[Dickon]

PsychoActist,

That's really good about the clonidine. Between that and the alprazolam, and the antihistamines, (maybe even the DXM, which some say can be useful, although having never experienced it I can't say), you have everything major that can aid you through the physical side of things.

I've written a "how to detox" guide, which is a sticky on this section which has a list of a large number of suplements etc. that may or may not be easily available and/or useful.

I'm not sure how long you've got before your next work assignment, but you will almost certainly need a week (or better 10-14 days depending on how bad your habit was) to be even close to fit for human consumption, work, etc. etc. Clonidine does knock you for six. My cat only used it for the nights last time round, but even so, he was still incredibly groggy in the morning. Sleep deprivation, benzos at night, and clonidine will not leave you ok for a days work, especially when combined with withdrawals!

It's up to you now. Be strong! Be proud! Give that monkey a kicking!

Dickon

[oxynomo]

Sounds like swiy has the goods to get off the shit.Gotta force oneself to stay strong.Swim thinks its a good idea to keep a journal written at home with every good,bad,whatever feelings swiys having.This way maybe if swiy thinks about using swiy will read and remember what swiy felt like.Hopefully it'll be a good deterrent.Good Luck
PS ....Wim here clean 33 days....it can be done

[rokman nash]

PA, you will be in Daves thoughts and prayers.As Drd said its a rollercoaster ride ,but interestingly not all bad.Get through the first few days and don't look back.Before you know it the worst is in the rearview mirror.

Good luck good thoughts

[chillinwill]

Overcoming addiction but more specifically opiate addiction is one of the hardest things to do in life IMO. This next week or so will be rough but remember what lies ahead and the goals that SWIY has set for themselves. Most everything Red Rock could say to ya has been covered so please follow that advice because it will make the withdrawal somewhat easier.

Also, Red Rock found that by posting both positive and negative accounts of what was going on in his life on here on the forum, it allowed him to not use. No matter what he was going through, he felt like he could talk about it on here and not be judged no matter what his thoughts or feelings were. In fact, not only could he get his thoughts down, he received wonderful advice from fellow members as well.

Make sure to keep us updated and Red Rock wishes SWIY the best of luck and he knows SWIY can do this.

[PsychoActivist]

Thursday February 5th, 2009

It's 3:35 pm and they are really starting. SWIPA is soooooooo cooooold. He was actually able to sleep last night for a while but thats probably because he had a cup of tea yesterday afternoon + the Xanax and the Diphenhydramine. He woke up freezing and has just been laying in bed with weird thoughts flowing in and out of his head. He got up for a minute and went out to smoke a cigarette (he can't smoke inside here) and it must be 30 degrees F here. He didn't even finish it. He came inside and layed on the couch downstairs for about 10 mins. Then got up and looked in the refridgerator. Nothing looked to appealing except for a coke which he drank half of. Now he is just checking the forums and is probably about to lay back down.

Thanks again guys. Your support is invaluable.

BTW, I think I need to change my avatar

[yaba]

Good luck to swiy ! Swim been true a few withdrawals, not nice !
Just keep in mined that the first few days are the worst and things will get better !

Sorry swim had a drink and doesn't talk a lot now..

[Ilsa]

hey sweetie my thoughts and prayers are with you! proud of you for being stubborn enough to go for it and stick with it...i know you can. keep posting, it occupies the mind and provides you an outlet, something to do, and support...you know all this, i was just reminding, as we women like to do (lol). every one of us that's posted here knows EXACTLY where you're at and we are all 100% supporting and rooting for you.

love, hugs and namaste

[Dickon]

Yep, I'll second Ilsa here. We KNOW what it's like, and it's never going be to the way you'd like to spend Christmas. The cold does not help, but the only thing worse than the cold is when you get so warm it's like an oven-door has been opened.

Keep on trucking and fighting the good fight! There be light at the end of that thar tunnel!! If you're lucky you might even get a "pink cloud", that feeling of euphoria once you've got through the turkey.

Anyway, we're all here to help with anything either practical or emotional, or just to listen and give support

Lots of love and good wishes

D

[oxynomo]

All the swims out here know bout that fkn cold.Bundle up,try to stay warm.Maybe a good soakin in a real hot tub will help,very relaxing[worked for swim]Sounds like swiy took swims seat on the boat he was on last month.Heart goes out to ya.After a few days it gets alittle easier.Be patient,stay positive ,you'll get through fine.It is gonna be worth it.Swim was just outside 17 degrees,no coat,just socks.sweats,nail in coffin,back inside.Thirty days ago no freekin way.Try stayin warm.Best wishes

[Ilsa]

how goes it? i'm gonna badger you daily, i've decided

just a thought: Dr D has already extolled the virtues of massage and i'm bringing it up so as to encourage you to pamper yourself a bit if you can...it can do wonders.

namaste

[PsychoActivist]

Tuesday, February 10th, 2009

Well guys and gals, I'm back. Sorry it took so long to get back on this thread. SWIPA had a very, very rough week. This is the first time him and I have been able to get on the comp, really.

First and foremost, SWIPA has been clean this whole time (well, from opiates anyway ). After the last post I made last Thursday, SWIPA ran into some Ambien (Zolpidem). He got 15 of them (10 mg's) on Thursday night and he took 3 immediately in hopes of going to sleep. Well, it didn't quite happen that way. What DID happen I cannot really say. He knows that his mother had to tell him to quit talking to himself and his brother said he was talking some crazy shit about "lights in his head". But when he woke up, all the Ambien and all of his Xanax were gone. It was Friday evening when he came to this realization. He panicked immediately, sweat covering his back like a layer of frost, sick to his stomach, he made a run for the bathroom and threw up all over the floor.

An hour later..... after dry heaving he got back up to his feet, extremely confused, and went back into his room. Something told him to look in his shoe next to his bed. He did so and found a pill bottle which contained 2 mg's of Alprazolam (Xanax) and 30 mg's of Ambien (Zolpidem). Thats all that was left.

This means that on that Thursday night in a fucked up stupor, while withdrawaling from Opiates, he managed to eat 12 (yes.... 120 mg's ) Ambien (Zolpidem) and most of his Xanax. Upon realizing this, he knew he was fucked for the next few days and did what any good junkie would - took the rest.

I will not go into much detail about Saturday and Sunday as I am still not quite sure what to say about it other than " It hurt". Saturday, SWIPA watched some movies with his brother. "Troy" was one of them and he really enjoyed it (300 mg's of DXM helped). It was one of the only things that seemed satisfactional. I.E... cigarettes tasted terribble, food was out of the question.... etc.

Not much has really helped, overall, honestly. Of course with the exception of the Xanax and Ambien . SWIPA was taking concoctions of Clonidine, Diphenhydramine, Meclizine, Cyclizine, Dimenhydrinate, Doxylamine, (not all at once with the anticholinergics BTW) Melatonin, Valerian, Passion Flower, Blue Lotus, Kava, DXM, some beer, a little pot, and I could probably keep going but I won't.

SWIPA still has hardly slept in 3 nights but he is feeling much better so far. He has been drinking since about 3 am this morning (which helped give him the motivation to type this up) and he is hoping to pass out soon and get some real sleep.

Most importantly of all, he has not indulged in any Opiates at all since he started this thread. His biggest concern now, is that he fucked up and smoked some pot and he still may need to take a drug test for his temp agency upon a new assignment.

Anyway without making this any longer.... thanks for all your support and care. What comes next i have no idea. I'll respond back shortly.

Much love and peacefulness,
PA

[Feprincess]

Originally Posted by PsychoActivist

Tuesday, February 10th, 2009
Most importantly of all, he has not indulged in any Opiates at all since he started this thread. His biggest concern now, is that he fucked up and smoked some pot and he still may need to take a drug test for his temp agency upon a new assignment.
PA

You may have smoked but reached your ulitmate goal of staying off opiates. You should be really, I mean really, proud of yourself!
Keep your eye on the prize!
I applaude you... This is why people like me came to this board in the first place; to know I am not alone.

[oxynomo]

Thanks for the laugh,Swim did the exact same thing with the ambienSwim foud out it is an hypnotic drug [no shit].One might to watch the drinking.Swim tried it ,got an hour or two of sleep,then had to be awake with hangover[made feel even shittier]Be patient sleep will come sooner or later.Anyway,Keep on fighting and Best of Luck. o

[Ilsa]

yes, my cat has read that people do many things they don't realize or remember while on ambien--eating, driving, testing knives on their arms (a friend of the cat's on that last one lol). sorry it's been so rough, but swipa hasn't given in to the withdrawals and that's laudable *applause*, tell him to keep going, he is getting there!! a thought on the alcohol though: it actually makes one sleep more lightly in excess, so maybe swipa might want to take it easy on that. clonidine helps very much with sleep--maybe swiy's doc can prescribe it for him?

[PsychoActivist]

Yeh, the alcohol isn't really doing it for him. It makes him feel better for a little while and then 5X worse after. It's not worth it. The Clonodine isn't doing much either though. As I have said they are the .3 mg's and he has tried taking a whole one, a half of one, and even a 3rd. It's not really helping him sleep. It makes his mouth real dry too.

Oh well. One can only go on for so long without sleep before they finally crash, right? For now he just waits and dreams (awake ) of that time.

[Dickon]

Yep, PA, I call it "sleep gravity". At some point the body's need of rest will overcome the w.d.s ability to keep you up. Clonidine won't help with sleep, or if it does so, it does so to a very small degree. What it does help with is the absolutely overwhelming anxiety, and it damps down a whole myriad of the physical side-effects. The down-side is that it leaves you doing the "largactyl shuffle", i.e. it zaps you of phyiscal energy and makes a lot of day to day things hard, and it has that horrible dry-mouth thing going on too. It's far from perfect, but I've found it able to bring w.d.s into the world of achievability. Everyone is different though, and if it's not helping you should stop using it, and resume it if need be. It can be used on an "as and when" basis.

Although getting through a withdrawal is not about being a masochist, the problem is that using too many strong drugs, including alcohol, to aid symptoms in the short term, as you've already said, can cause rebound symptoms which often make matters worse. Now you're about a week in, you should be aiming for a major reduction in, or ideally, an utter cessation of benzos, alcohol, weed, DXM, zolpidem, and probably the other things too. Kava always made me feel really shitty, so that might not be so great either. I'm also susceptible to bad-effects from anticholigenic antihistamines too, and would avoid these. But this might just be getting into the realm of Dickon-specific information.

I don't know what your medium-/longer-term goals are, but I'd suggest some time away from all mood altering drugs and alcohol because:

1. It let's your body heal; one figure I've seen is that physical recovery from opiate addiction takes about 9 months. It's in an article (PhD thesis) on Nigella Sativa in the opiate addiction section of the file archive if you're interested. The information, and an (interesting) explanation as to what happens after cessation is towards the beginning of the article.
2. It's easy to replace one addiction by another one. Alcohol is particularly dangerous as a substitute. I think alcohol has some effects on opiate receptors, and I've seen many an opiate addict quit only to start drinking alcoholically. The use of Naltrexone as a treatment for alcoholism lends credence to this. However, I know of at least one former opiate addict who uses weed in an addictive manner, so maybe it has less to do with the "physical addictiveness" of the replacement.
3. You're less likely to relapse on the opiates if you do not risk, among other things
   • lowered inhibitions
   • hangovers
   • highs that might remind you of, but feel inferior to opiate highs
4. You might find out that you prefer it, although, then again, you might not!

Just a thought

D [playing with BBCodes!]

[PsychoActivist]

Originally Posted by Dickon

Yep, PA, I call it "sleep gravity". At some point the body's need of rest will overcome the w.d.s ability to keep you up. Clonidine won't help with sleep, or if it does so, it does so to a very small degree. What it does help with is the absolutely overwhelming anxiety, and it damps down a whole myriad of the physical side-effects. The down-side is that it leaves you doing the "largactyl shuffle", i.e. it zaps you of phyiscal energy and makes a lot of day to day things hard, and it has that horrible dry-mouth thing going on too. It's far from perfect, but I've found it able to bring w.d.s into the world of achievability. Everyone is different though, and if it's not helping you should stop using it, and resume it if need be. It can be used on an "as and when" basis.

Although getting through a withdrawal is not about being a masochist, the problem is that using too many strong drugs, including alcohol, to aid symptoms in the short term, as you've already said, can cause rebound symptoms which often make matters worse. Now you're about a week in, you should be aiming for a major reduction in, or ideally, an utter cessation of benzos, alcohol, weed, DXM, zolpidem, and probably the other things too. Kava always made me feel really shitty, so that might not be so great either. I'm also susceptible to bad-effects from anticholigenic antihistamines too, and would avoid these. But this might just be getting into the realm of Dickon-specific information.

I don't know what your medium-/longer-term goals are, but I'd suggest some time away from all mood altering drugs and alcohol because:

1. It let's your body heal; one figure I've seen is that physical recovery from opiate addiction takes about 9 months. It's in an article (PhD thesis) on Nigella Sativa in the opiate addiction section of the file archive if you're interested. The information, and an (interesting) explanation as to what happens after cessation is towards the beginning of the article.
2. It's easy to replace one addiction by another one. Alcohol is particularly dangerous as a substitute. I think alcohol has some effects on opiate receptors, and I've seen many an opiate addict quit only to start drinking alcoholically. The use of Naltrexone as a treatment for alcoholism lends credence to this. However, I know of at least one former opiate addict who uses weed in an addictive manner, so maybe it has less to do with the "physical addictiveness" of the replacement.
3. You're less likely to relapse on the opiates if you do not risk, among other things
   • lowered inhibitions
   • hangovers
   • highs that might remind you of, but feel inferior to opiate highs
4. You might find out that you prefer it, although, then again, you might not!

Just a thought

D [playing with BBCodes!]

Thanks again Dickon. This is really an outstanding post. It also helps put the other stuff SWIPA's been taking into perspective. Especially the part about "letting the body heal".

Tried Counting Sheep, But They Just Kept Coming!!
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009


It's just so frustrating. He can't sleep for more than an hour at a time and he's been getting about 3 of these "hours" every 24. He's to the point where he wants to find a a nice hard stud in the wall and slam his freakin' head into it to knock himself out!! Even 4 hours of straight uninterrupted sleep would be a Godsend right now.

Aside from that everything else is really getting back to normal. He has been eating and keeping food down, it's just not coming out solid on the other end (if you catch my drift). He is still pretty dehydrated and we realize now that alcohol is out of the question.

I will spare you the details, but his bowel movements look the way they did when he had to be hospitalized for dehydration as a child - frothy. He knows now he must start drinking a LOT of water and NO BEER and probably no other Diuretics (not like he's gonna drink coffee anyway as that certainly won't help him sleep).

No more shakes or anything though (maybe a little bit). Also, no more cold sweats but he does get the hot/cold flashes and that is a big part of why it's so hard for him to sleep.

He has always had some major Insomnia problems and now it's just out of control. He has already been down Benzo Hwy and at this point he's thinking of seeing a doctor if it continues on much longer than this.

WE know substituting addictions is never really a good thing, but if it is something he can get a prescription for, he will try his best not to abuse them. Just take them to sleep. So far it's the best ides we can come up with.

For all sake of harm reduction, I will not even get into the sick, crazy ways that we have thought about how to get SWIPA to sleep. I will just say among them all, seeing a doctor to get on SOMETHING that will help him sleep, beats the crap out of all the other horrorribble ideas we came up with

Maybe he needs to just retrain himself. He really can't remember how he used to go to sleep before his Opiate addiction. It's like the only way he knows is when he's got enough "O" in his system to be nodding all over the place and then it's time.

But without the "O" now, he can't remember how he used to go to sleep

Oh well, we'll see if it gets any better over the next few days and I'll be adding more.

[oxynomo]

Swimcoactiiv , just remenbered a drug think it was used for severe insomnia.Swim used this drug long ago and it would put a horse to bed.Swim hasn't heard of it lately. Placidyl 750[big green liquid filled capsule]Don't think in US maybe Europe.Find them,GTD to be asleep in 30 min,trust me.They were so potent probably not being made.Strongest pill swims used period. o

[Ilsa]

it will get easier...til then swipa has folks to talk to around the clock on df....thsi has worked well for others (Screaming thread). just be stubborn!!!! love and hugs and namaste!

ps maybe video games or a pile of good books will help with the long, sleepless hours? they did for my cat...

[chillinwill]

Red Rock suggests to keep posting on this thread to get SWIY thoughts out there and let us know what is going on. Fairly soon, SWIY's sleep cycle should start to return to normal but until then, SWIY has to be tough enough to tough this out without using. Red Rock used to try to take short little 15-30 minute naps during the day and foudn this helped little bit during his insomnia during withdrawal and whatnot. SWIY has just got to think about what is around the corner and what is to come eventually. It might take a while, but it will come. Keep your head up and don't give up faith. If SWIY is going through the no sleeping phase, please keep posting as it seems to be helping SWIY and the last thing that SWIY wants to do is go back to where they were. SWIY can do it! No matter how hard it seems, SWIY will get through it and it will pass

[PsychoActivist]

Originally Posted by ilsa

it will get easier...til then swipa has folks to talk to around the clock on df....thsi has worked well for others (Screaming thread). just be stubborn!!!! love and hugs and namaste!

ps maybe video games or a pile of good books will help with the long, sleepless hours? they did for my cat...

Yeh, the video games thing has been helping. SWIPA just began playing Battlefield 2 online again for the first time in about 5 months. It definitely does help pass time. He also has the pile of books!