Culture - morality of selling Research Chemicals IRL

[lostmente]

In a freeworld it should be fine, but some of the RC's out there are very harsh on the body, the mind swim wouldn't be so worried about as people are very apt at destroying their psyche with the common intoxicants.

It's certainly unfair to misrepresent RC's as the ordinary drugs ie all the threads looking for the RC mix that >= MDMA....however the idea of misrepresenting something isn't new in the drug world.

Is it wrong to make your own 'X', sell baggies of 'coke' or 'lsd'? Is the fact that the person you're buying off prob not caring that its not the real deal as long as it gets them where they want to go the real point..

[Richard_smoker]

Yes. This is ethically and morally wrong.

However, the harsh, bitter TRUTH of this subject is that many many MANY people over the years have been guilty of this very thing as well as money-making schemes that are much, much worse, ranging anywhere from decreasing the ratio of active drugs by 'cutting' a drug with cheaper non-drug to downright substitution of drugs with other ingredients--some similar or in some other way psychoactive, and others non-psychoactive--these substituted chemicals can range anywhere from completely harmless to downright harmful, toxic, and even poisonous to users.

In the spirit of the attitudes represented and the values most-highly revered by the vast majority of those who associate with this site; and also in keeping with the tenets espoused by all the various major sub-cultures representing freedom of information on drug use, health-advocacy, freedom of recreational drug use, and the worldwide decriminalization of marijuana, PLEASE DO NOT ENCOURAGE THE BLATANT MISREPRESENTATION OF DRUGS IN ORDER TO CAPITALIZE ON (AND BY LYING, EARN A HUGE PROFIT FROM) THE RIDICULOUSLY HIGH BLACK MARKET-SELLING PRICES OF *LEGITIMATE* DRUGS.
This practice is WRONG. Think about it. Drug use is a victimless crime. Selling a RC-mixture as "Ecstacy pills" is NOT a victimless crime! This sale is explicitly ILLEGAL in the U.S. Get caught selling an aspirin that you 'pretend' is really ecstacy, and you're looking at a FELONY DISTRIBUTING CLASS I NARCOTICS CONVICTION. -DICK

Reputation Comments on this post:

This stuff needed spelling out, im glad you did

[lostmente]

Misrepresenting is certainly wrong in all regards, but what about ppl swiy would tell "its pretty much better than any x you'll find around here" but they go around selling it to mates saying it IS x. Swim does think that people should know what they're in for....it seems a pincher, in some areas traditional drugs are uncommon but RC's are obtainable generally everywhere...so to supply a community with something counterfit even when its not explicitly labelled

[RaverHippie]

Originally Posted by lostmente

Misrepresenting is certainly wrong in all regards, but what about ppl swiy would tell "its pretty much better than any x you'll find around here" but they go around selling it to mates saying it IS x. Swim does think that people should know what they're in for....it seems a pincher, in some areas traditional drugs are uncommon but RC's are obtainable generally everywhere...so to supply a community with something counterfit even when its not explicitly labelled

i'm still calling BS on this one. this random raver I met once used to engage in supplying other ravers with rc's and the only time he would ever sell things was when he had personally taken threshhold, normal, and high doses and felt comfortable in describing hese effects to paint a thorough picture of what was being sold. dropping a line like 'better than x' is absolutely amoral and irresponsible imho. he would literally tell whoemever purchased the rc everything listed in this post prior to allowing them to purchase anything.

[mrme]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

i'm still calling BS on this one. this random raver I met once used to engage in supplying other ravers with rc's and the only time he would ever sell things was when he had personally taken threshhold, normal, and high doses and felt comfortable in describing hese effects to paint a thorough picture of what was being sold. dropping a line like 'better than x' is absolutely amoral and irresponsible imho. he would literally tell whoemever purchased the rc everything listed in this post prior to allowing them to purchase anything.

Swim has to say that they would be appalled at anybody selling rcs as anything else..if swim did sell any rcs (he doesnt lol) he would feel responsible if anyone who bought off him had a bad trip etc because he didnt take the few minutes to explain what it is and what the dangers are. if they dont want it after hearing all this, its fair enough.
the world definitely doesnt need any more lies, no matter how small they might be

[EyesOfTheWorld]

Originally Posted by mrme

Swim has to say that they would be appalled at anybody selling rcs as anything else..if swim did sell any rcs (he doesnt lol) he would feel responsible if anyone who bought off him had a bad trip etc because he didnt take the few minutes to explain what it is and what the dangers are. if they dont want it after hearing all this, its fair enough.
the world definitely doesnt need any more lies, no matter how small they might be

yup. SWIM does not deal drugs, nor has he ever, but he has a friend of a friend that used to, and this person often sold RCs, but he was explicit about what they were, only sold them after he had used them himself several times, etc. The only thing this person left out was the fact that the substances were available online for less money, but this is equivalent to a weed middleman not giving the # of his higherup to a customer. SWIM doesn't feel selling RCs is wrong, but selling them as something they are not, is.

[nate81]

People SWIY might run into are smart enough that if SWIY told them what he was offering, they'd probably be interested.

SWIM used to get RC's and pass some to friends, he always explained all the important details and wouldn't offer if he felt they were going to overdose despite his warnings.

Passing an RC off as LSD or X or Mescaline (a la microdots) is horrific.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

Get caught selling an aspirin that you 'pretend' is really ecstacy, and you're looking at a FELONY DISTRIBUTING CLASS I NARCOTICS CONVICTION. -DICK

Really? Is this stated in law? even if the substance is completely harmless?

Thinking about it, if its not illegal, it certainly should be. Misrepresenting drugs is the number one problem with deaths.

[polidelaiko]

I'm finding a lot of posts here that seem to imply that people are going to sell RC's as other things. Or maybe not... But why would anyone want to put 2C-I in blotters, or mix 2C-E with flour? or put it in a 2mg per drop solution?

[nate81]

Originally Posted by Synesthesiac

Really? Is this stated in law? even if the substance is completely harmless?

Thinking about it, if its not illegal, it certainly should be. Misrepresenting drugs is the number one problem with deaths.

Yes, selling a substance that is legal while telling the consumer that it is an illegal substance is illegal (did that make sense?). In other words, if one had DXM and put it in pills and went to a club and said "hey, this is MDMA, everybody buy some and have fun", that is considered an illegal act. I don't recall the exact law ATM.

Just remembered something, this is law in USA, might be different for you?

[ganjahero420]

^ yea ive had freinds get slammed with this charge. like selling oregano as weed or selling flour as coke can rly mes u up..... (btw my friends werent doing the shit in those examples they have more integrity than that haha.)

[cannabis-sam]

You could say it's immoral on the grounds that these chemicals are widely untested, relatively new and harmful effects aren't fully known. However at least with RCs you know that it's pure and you know exactly what you're buying which isn't something that can be said for buying on the street. Still because other drugs with more known about them are illegal knew untested drugs will come on the quasi legal market. We know the softer drugs on the illegal market are relatively safe but we don't know long term health effects of RC's and you could say it's immoral to sell something without them knowing the true risk or potential of what they are taking.

[lostmente]

there bid a question...most of the psychedelics were novel at some point, and granted it boiled down to mdma and lsd being popular...theres a weird judgement being made. For one the chemicals that people desire are popular for a reason..that they work well in most regards. So to say anything is like anything else is trying to tag on its coat tails.

But there is this point that some of the RC's may be better in some respect...but its too much for the entry level druggard to comprehend

"hey you know where to score any tryptamines bro?"
"yeh man, can get some sweet as 2c gel tabs"

So maybe the drug world isn't built for that much variation in product (unlike true comericalism)...when most ppl taking lsd tabs are looking to get twisted,

[Richard_smoker]

Originally Posted by Synesthesiac

Really? Is this stated in law? even if the substance is completely harmless?

Thinking about it, if its not illegal, it certainly should be. Misrepresenting drugs is the number one problem with deaths.

it's illegal in the U.S. I don't know about any other countries.

[DynoMiTe]

My Buddha statue told me he can find RCs locally but only in a tight circle of friends who all know the risks of taking RCs and are knowledgeable about the substances they take.

[Richard_smoker]

oh yeah, well all he really has to do is buy a few different 'brands' of ecstacy... a dozen different tabs and i'm sure your buddha will have a nice collection of research chems.

[sunyata]

Originally Posted by cannabis-sam

However at least with RCs you know that it's pure and you know exactly what you're buying

I'll have to disagree with this, We Who Are Not Ourselves have seen many vendors who sell impure products and who sell one product as another.

Although Swim has enjoyed the unregulated sales of RC's(as a customer, mind) he can not say he endorses it. Selling strong, untested and often quite potent psychedelics in undiluted form to people whos mental/intellectual faculties you have no way of asessing is by definition irresponsible. Do not be fooled, the people who do this don't do it to "enlighten" the masses, but to make money.

At the same time I can see that it is a useful way for responsible people, who can't/won't get the classical compounds, to get their psychedelics.
Its a question of wether the security of the "stupid" or the opportunities of the "smart" has priority.

There is also the issue of the scum who buys large quanta of an RC and then re-sell it as one of the "classical" compounds. For some hardhead who is used to taking multiple hits of essentially non-toxic LSD, it becomes a big probem if he/she is sold 5-meo-AMT instead. As happened to this poor girl http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_media2.shtml

Swim is not saying that it would be better if they were not sold or made illegal, just that it would be better if there were some regulations on the sale. Nobody wants 16 year olds to get their hands on a gram of bromo-dragonfly powder.

[Rainbowzz]

my girlfriend swim doesnt see anything wrong with selling research chems - but would definetly make the purchasers aware and make sure they know what they are doing. Send em here maybe before they do em to do some research. Talk to em about it.

and selling ANY drug as another drug is just plain stupid. What would happen if you gave someone a drug pretending its another drug and they went in to anaphylaxis and died? ITs just not safe.. People should know what they put in their bodies.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by sunyata

Selling strong, untested and often quite potent psychedelics in undiluted form to people whos mental/intellectual faculties you have no way of asessing is by definition irresponsible. Do not be fooled, the people who do this don't do it to "enlighten" the masses, but to make money.

This is the bottom line. Its all about the money. Though there are some exceptions. I know a very rich guy that brought kilo's of mimosa hostilis rootbark and just gave out DMT to loads of people, the whole city was swimming with the stuff for weeks. When he stopped giving it out for free though, someone caught on and started selling it to the people who had become aware of it. Money and greed always takes over after a while. Its called capitalism.

I often think that if I was one of the many suppliers selling kilo's of research chemicals, such as mephedrone, to people, would an incident like the recent death caused by meph make me stop selling it? It would in my case for sure, but then again I wouldn't be selling RC's to people in the first place.

Even if there were a whole bunch of deaths from a substance, if theres a market people will sell it. Just look at the more 'dangerous' drugs like crystal meth, etc, if people want them, theres always going to be people wanting to make money from them. Same for any research chemical. If theres a desire for a drug, theres gonna be someone selling it somewhere to make a buck. Its not really evil, or immoral, in my opinion; its called business. The same as any other business that makes profit.

Whether business itself is evil and immoral is however another question thats up for you to decide. I personally agree with Noam Chomsky on this one (he has some very good ideas about the errors in capitalism and monetary systems), business and corporations are inherently monsterous, in-humain and evil entities. Not just RC vendors, all greed driven business.

[cannabis-sam]

Still research chems are a largely unregulated market and not much is known about them, which makes them more dangerous. as far as morality goes, as synthesiac stated, it's not about morality it's about money and where there's a demand someone will supply.

[RaverHippie]

the thing of it is that there isn't really a demand for research chemicals in the general public, even in the crazy circles my raver friend travels among. He always has to explain himself and say "no it isn't a cross between acid and X. It's completely different and here's why:..."

It always takes a bit of marketing to uncover the demand since the product creates demand just by existing. There's so little awareness that jabbering like an idiot will soon create the demand.