Combinations - Why does MDMA not work at all on SWIM?

[Moonage Daydream]

As has been said elsewhere SWIM has been doing amphetamines for four years, not every day but very often (say 3-5 times a week)
She has noticed that when she takes MDMA (even powder/crystals which work very well on all the others she is with) it either fails to work completely or produces a tiny effect.
For this reason obvious SWIM doesn't take it anymore as it would be a waste of time and money (and her arts job pays v stingily), and in the name of damage limitation because at least then SWIM is just putting one relatively simple chemical into her body. Maybe it's worth mentioning that, unusually for all others into speed that she knows, SWIM does not smoke (ANYTHING) and drinks very moderately. So only bad habit is speed.
By and large SWIM is rather bored by MDMA anyway, which is associated with her boredom with the part of the club scene she used to be involved in (more gigs and genuinely interesting electro/experimental stuff these days)
Having said that it would be nice to be able to do it every now and then as she did enjoy it on occasion. SWIM can't do psychedelics even though she is interested as she is too fundamentally nervous and over-thinks like mad. These are inborn character traits which are of course enhanced by amphetamines. Swim dislikes downers and is scaredy cat about ketamine and the like, and is either missing something or (only in SWIMs subjective opinion) cocaine seems to be the most over-rated drug in the world after alcohol. So options are limited if SWIM ever feels the occasional need to erm, vary her diet.
Yeah SWIM knows the obvious answer is to quit amphetamines but this would be exceedingly difficult, though SWIM knows that she will have to eventually.
Anyway thanks and sorry to babble on as ever. Ah well, tie her to the chair and gaffer tape her mouth, that should do it ha ha!

[Robbo]

Hiya,

You would of probably mentioned this but are you on any anti-depressants? As I used to be on citalopram a-d's and they used to totally block the effect of mdma/e's, I could sit there and take 10-15 and id just be a teeny bit buzzy, n my mates would of dropped 5 and be gurning away like anything, and I used to hardly ever do them so I didnt have any sort of tolerance to them, I used to cane them when I was younger but this was at a time when it was prob once a month maybe...

I used to be total speed freak from about the age of 16 too 22 , gave it up for gear, but thats another story hehe, just wanted to say I used to think the same as you that coke was totally overated , way over priced and for a really short buzz, after knockin base on the head n in one of my clean phases I started doin it out on the piss most weekends n have to say I started to see the appeal, funny how things change lol...

Anyway, I probably havent helped much but just wanted to check the a-d thing..

[Moonage Daydream]

No swim is not on anti-depressants. that must have something to do with serotonin reuptake maybe?
or any other meds. Other than obvious angst which swim accepts as occupational hazard am on luckily ok so far. Seems unlikely will suddenly discover fondness for coke given swims age and fact of having tried almost everything over 15 year period. For better or worse, swim has found what works and has stuck with it
Maybe just a quirk of body chemistry?
Even in speed clean periods (this habit ~3 shouldve learned by now eh! on off since 23) swim noticed she metabolises it quickly because of quick metabolic rate in general (takes 1,400 cals just to run the inert version! - found this out in horrible machine at my gym which measures everything but wont bore you with Bridget Jones moan - great excuse to eat cake)

[RaverHippie]

To put it lightly, speed uses up the same things in your brain that MDMA needs to work.

[Moonage Daydream]

ok great thanks that clears that up!

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

To put it lightly, speed uses up the same things in your brain that MDMA needs to work.

Is that really the case, though? I thought speed affected mainly the dopamine system, with some subsidiary serotonin activity, while MDMA was the other way round. So they affect the same two neurotransmitters, but in rather different ratios. Feel free to correct me if I'm on the wrong track entirely...

[Moonage Daydream]

I did as well but maybe they somehow cancel each other out. SWIMs associates who also do speed react to it though, so maybe is something to do with a strange quirk of body chemistry?

[RaverHippie]

I read recently in a thread that pretty much all amphetamine type drugs stimulate serotonin release to a degree. MDMA does this on a drastic level so it's necessary for the serotonin to be there in the first place. I'm sure KyleM would be able to explain it in much greater detail. I definitely need to do more research on the ins and outs of serotonin.

[Moonage Daydream]

thanks for that. Though would imagine that my cat would have a reasonable store of serotonin as not depressed, but then maybe it gets depleted over a long period incrementally through using any amphetamine?
anyway maybe just leave it til the cat gives up ... a kind of reward perhaps...

[Routemaster Flash]

There's a widespread myth that each of us is born with some kind of finite 'store' of serotonin, a little of which gets used up every time we take ecstasy (or speed, or whatever). Of course this is complete rubbish. Our brains are continually making and destroying serotonin; a drug like MDMA causes a big temporary surge in serotonin, after which the cells that make it are 'tired' and have to 'rest. The longer you leave it until your next session, the better the cells will have recovered. This is why MDMA tolerance slowly fades if you stop taking it for a while.

[Moonage Daydream]

ah yes, rather like the myth of having a finite number of heartbeats - which scared swim silly for a few seconds - she thought oh shit i'll be dead at 40 then. Then thought - wait a minute then it must be bad for you to exercise then which also accelerates your heart rate...

[riaahacker]

For amphetamine to stimulate serotonin release, high doses need to be used and while MDMA is indeed a serotonin releaser, some of its euphoric and stimulating effects are contributed to dopamine release as related chemicals such as MBDB which is a more selective serotonin releaser causes sedation and less euphoric and entactogenic properties

[Moonage Daydream]

ah well that explains it cos swim is unlikely to take MDMA unless she has had a lot of speed because if she has just had a few lines it is daytime and unconducive to being on e. SWIM realises she has weird hypocrisy whereby she doesn't think twice about snorting or dabbing speed at 9am but would be appalled at the idea of drinking or doing mdma until 7pm!