Why do people lie about Salvia divinorum

[Softrat]

For a long time now people have be posting fictious reports about the nature of the high produced by Salvia. I have seens these report on Errowid and many other places.


People that make these report make it sound like Salvia produces a high much like that of Daturas, Belladona, Dramamine, and other delerient hallucinogens. They descibe loosing all contact with reality and hallucinating things that are not there including completely different worlds.


I would like to state for the record that I do not belive these reportsfor a second. Salvia is a powerful drug no doubt, but the hallucinations it produces are juts not like that at all. Open eye visuals are distortions of what is there, along with things such as tranparent pattern etc. Closed eye visuals are very vivid patterns and images etc.


It is not valid to say that maybe Salvia effects people differently. While it is true that a given drug , particularly psychedellics, will have a range of effects from person to person there are limits to this. It is extreeeeemly unlikely to say the least that a given drug would produces fundamentaly different effects in different people as if it was not the same drug at all. While peoples body/brain chemistry varies it only does so within a certain range. Given this the same drug will produce a certain common ground of effects in people, despite have a certain range of variation.


Even the mental effects of psychedellic drugs, which seem in some ways so varied from person to person, have a common ground that ties all these varied reactions together under one broad effect. That effect is psychological intensification. The taking of ones phycological attributes and abilities and intensifying them significantly.


Because of all this I don't believe people really hallucinate other worlds and things when they take Salvia. The question remains however as to how did this cultural phenomenon of fibing about ones Salvia trips become so wide spread.





Edited by: Softrat

[unico_walker]

"Plants" trying to drum up business for the various vendors? Or is that too cynical?



I've had people SWEAR up and down to me they had open eye visuals on
3rd plat doses of DXM, I don't mean a pattern I mean whole other world
things that aren't there etc.

[Softrat]

That may be part of it. Maybe it is also a coolness exaggeration thing. Ie: My salvia trip was so much stronger than yours.

[sands of time]

You obviously never smoked a bowl of 20X salvia. For at least a minute you will loose touch with all human emmotions if you smoke it properly.

[Pinkavvy]

wow, what a dumbass statement. yes, the world revolves around and your perception.

now back to reality. you are false in assuming that since you have not been able to reach a full blown experience, nobody else has. salvia is not a drug like any other. it is a very spiritual plant that hold a lot of tradition and power. too many people get half-assed dizzy type highs because they didn't consume the salvia properly or get enough salvinorum a into their system ... and then they think that's all there is to salvia. you must be in clear state of mind and be in a setting that is not destracting or 'grounding' in any way. (like a dark silent or ambient temple setting.) you then must get enough salvinorun a into your system fast enough. if you are going to use regular leaf you must use a butane lighter and heat the leaves to 260 degrees and hold the torchflame to the leaf the enter 'hit.' you then hold it and count to 20 or so, long enough to absorb all the salvinorun a. then you exhale and repeat. if this doesn't work for you then try an extract. swim has a couple friends that were skeptics like you, until they tried 25x extract. also pure salvinorin a produces a much stronger effect then any dmt swim has done.

bottom line is that your more experienced phsychonauts are not lieing to you, and the world isn't conspiring against you. once you cross the threshold of holding on, salvia is the most intense experience you could receive. you can literally enter an entire other universe and set of physics for mere seconds and what may seem years to you... and awaken again in this reality with only 15 minutes past. this is a reality. if you have not experience it yet, and therefore think it can't exist, then too bad for you.

:P

salvia is by no means recreational if done properly.

[42itis]

Salvia is similar to a deliriant, some of these recountable episodes may very well be true, at least in the minds of those who tell them.

[Softrat]

I have never had any problem breaking through on salvia. The first time I smoked salvia was with 5X extract, well over a year ago. I got very high and saw patterns. Often times on Salvia it feels and looks like the whole fabric ofspace is bending and folding. However this is still in the relm of disortions of what is there.


Since then I smoke the 10X Salvia about once a month. I have never had any trouble geting very high with salvia. But there is nothing in the nature of the high that would even remotly suggest that Salvia would become a delirient like datura even in massive overdose.


I should also point out, even delirents like Datura and dramamine, do not cause people to see whole other worlds. On these drugs you do tend to have vivid hallucination of things and people that are not there, but even then they are intergrated with your experience with external reality. Even delerients do not shut down your sense experience and cause you to see only hallucinations.


Edited by: Softrat

[Softrat]

Oh by the way even under large dosses of Salvia I retain complete 100% volitional control of my behaivor. I know exactly what is going on, who I am, where I am, etc. I don't run around like a mad man. I remain seated until balance is returned. I don't play with matches. I can talk if need be, and reply in a coherent and sensable way. If other people are around I know exactly who they are.

[unico_walker]

The counterpart to the "I got so much more fucked up then you" is the
"I can take anything and still be totally sober you pussies".

[Pinkavvy]

Originally Posted by Softrat

*Oh by the way even under large dosses of Salvia I retain complete 100% volitional control of my behaivor. I know exactly what is going on, who I am, where I am, etc. I don't run around like a mad man. I remain seated until balance is returned. I don't play with matches. I can talk if need be, and reply in a coherent and sensable way. If other people are around I know exactly who they are.

uhhuh. try a change of atmousphere. try a change of mindset. i've been grounded by people in the room before too, talking ... radio, etc. these are all things that ground you.

a phsychonaut doesn't just experience the effects of a drug, but rather explores that depths of themselves and their perceptions. I suggest you do it in a ceremonial setting. and when you feel the effects start to tug, let go. don't be anchored by sounds and what is going on "around" you but ride the slopes. open your mind and explore.

5x and 10x extract are often not strong enough. if you have not yet experienced a reality-shifting experience, and you desire to, try 25x extract or pure salvinorin a.

[Softrat]

Oh I don't claim to be stay sober at all on Salvia. As I said it is very powerful. Maybe I will order some 20 X next time. But I highly doubt after taking a good hit I will be off in some extreeme Datura universe driving a bus that is not there, down a mountain road that does not exist, talking to people that are not there!


Also since I take Salvia for medical reasons, sleepwalking, most of the time I do smoke it alone, in a dark room, no radio or TV. I still have yet to find myself in a mexican desert, selling movie tickets, to John Lennon and a blue Gekco that is 10' tall holding an umbrella.

[Softrat]

Of coarse I could just pack my next bowl of 10X with twice my normal dose......Dare I! I will!


I will post what happens........if I ever come back that isEdited by: Softrat

[asystole]

I have personally become totally detatched with my surroundings, feelings, ect. while on salvia. I have experienced the strange feelings and visual distortions, but then I came close to breaking through the last time, and it was very close to delerium. It wasn't a full blown hallucination where I was in a different place and I wasn't a different person, it was just a total nonsense thought loop and everything aside from the elements involved in the thought loop were nonexistant.

[RoboCop]

"Because of all this I don't believe people really hallucinate other worlds and things when they take Salvia. The question remains however as to how did this cultural phenomenon of fibing about ones Salvia trips become so wide spread."

It is a very strong dissociative these things are not uncommon with using salvia. I have gotten all of the above you explained from high doses of DXM, and salvia is a stronger dissociative. People discribing dissociation can sound alot like delerium.

"It is extreeeeemly unlikely to say the least that a given drug would produces fundamentaly different effects in different people as if it was not the same drug at all."

I would have to disagree, this is not the case with dissociatives, noticing this with DXM as well as others peoples experiences on dissociatives vary more than any kind of drug possible.

I agree with everything pinkavvy has said. No one is lieng about salvia trips, but I can see how your frustration of not being able to have a mind blowing experience has gotten you to think so.

[Pinkavvy]

softrat maybe you should try iv'ing salvinorin a.

j/k robocop :P

[Softrat]

Robo Cop,


If one thing can be said for certain, it is that Salvia is definitely not a dissociative. It is a psychedelic. It doesn't dull the senses the way a dissociative would, if anything it tends to increase sensory sensistivity. Under salvia their is no loss of awarness of the body. I have had one salvia experience where I was very very very acutely aware of my body.


The day after a Salvia experience a persons senses are more alive than ever. You are aware of both the external world and youself more intensly than ever. Your thoughts are stimulated. This is no dissociative at all.


Edited by: Softrat

[Softrat]

I think part of the reason for the false reporting stems from the quasi-religious views of many users of psychedelic drugs. Many people who use these drug are basicly what I call wannabe primitives or wanabe shaman.


Long story short they like to belive than when they take psychedellics and other hallucingens the hallucinatory effects of these drugs are not simply sensory effects of their organs but instead magical entities from another plane of existance, or that they themselves, the psychonaught, are traveling to another world.


I belive in some cases the bogus reporting on Salvia stems from a desire to validate this world view. "Here now at last is a plant sacrament that truely takes us to the other side and away from this vulger phsyical world of absolutes", is the essense of the motive.

[Pinkavvy]

softrat - it is ignorant to assume your experiences reflect that of any others.

did you know that salvia experiences of actually leaving reality have been around for hundreds of years? did you know that many people are phsychonauts and do use differant substances to truely explore their minds and realities .... they are much differant than the dumb druggies that sit around trying to pick apart the high of a substance.

it's a shame you have not experience a true salvia trip out of this world. it's a shame that your logic makes you think nobody else has.

lol

[Softrat]

Pinkavvy that just means people have ben rejecting reality for hundreds of years.


It is not ignorant to assume thatSalvia has a particular nature and can produce effects only in accordance with what it is. If a person claimed that drinking alcohol gave them the power of flight you would know they were lying cause such is not within it's nature.


Salvia is a psychedellic. This means it produces a psychedellic effect, not a dellirient , not a dissociative. Because people are different in body make up and brain chemistry and the ideas they hold there will be a certain range of effects. It does not follow from this that anything is possible. Just as Salvia has a particular nature so does the human brain and body. And people only differ so much. This does place very real limits on the range of effects that a drug produces.


I have heard some of these absurd claims made about other psychedellics, but Salvia was interesting cause there was such an intense wave of it.


And Pinkavvy it is a shame that your illogic has caused you to never experince the true glory of the psychdellic experience. Psychedellics are not to be about rejecting reality and trying to escape into some fantasy shaman world. Properly used, psychedellics are about seeing this world, the real one, on a level largely closed to those who do not use them, or those that use them to escape reality.


They are also about discovering you, understand what makes you tic, fixing what needs to be fixed, improving upon what needs improvement. But you will never discover this side of the psychedellic experience if you are bussy talking with Mckenna style entities, or trying to visit other worlds where logic has no use and something is true just cause you belive it is true. The religious/shamantic approach to psychedellics is a form of drug abuse.


You will also never experience this side of psychedellics (ie: therational side) if you can't even be honest with yourself about what the basic effects of a drug are.Edited by: Softrat

[asystole]

Softrat, what the hell are you trying to prove? Are you saying that Timothy Leary is full of shit too? Anyone that has profound thought through the use of drugs is a stinking hippie maybe?


You know what? Drugs don't even EXIST. They're all just psychosomatic reactions, we ACT like we're high and having certain effects, becuase that's what THE MAN tells us we're supposed to feel like when we take the "drugs".


Maybe people aren't ALL full of shit liars, and we're not all out to get you. Lots of people have very different and profound experiences with the same drug. What makes you right and everyone else wrong?

[Softrat]

Aystole-


Yes Timothy Leary was a very stupid irrational man. He belived there was no reality, he was the product of very bad philosophy going back to plato.


And yes drugs do exist, their solid, their real, their there. The reaction of drugs is not caused by "The Man". The reactions of drugs are effects caused by the drugs and their interaction with their human host.


"What makes you right and everyone else wrong?" Answer reality. I adhere to it, you don't.


"Are you saying that Timothy Leary is full of shit too? Anyone that has profound thought through the use of drugs is a stinking hippie maybe? "


Not profound thought. Dumb thought. It is not profound to take LSD and then just make crap up while under it's influence and say it's true cause it came to me in a flash while I was on LSD. Thats not profound, it's lame.


This goes back to what I said earlier, the broad common effect of psychedellics that ties together the wide variety of psychological reactions to them is the intesification of psychological processes, from sense experinece to emotion to mind. If you take a rational approach to them then you will see and understand yourself and the world on a level you never dreamed possible, cause your reason will beintensified 1000X.Howeverthe other side of the coin is that if you take an irrational approach to psychedellicsthen this is what will be intensified 1000X. You will not just stagnate,you will sink to the depths of men like Leary and Mckenna, talking aboutelves and entities andhowP. cubensis spores really came from outer space etc...


A true waste of good materials Edited by: Softrat

[Demonslayer]

Originally Posted by Softrat

Yes Timothy Leary was a very stupid irrational man. He belived there was no reality, he was the product of very bad philosophy going back to plato.

"What makes you right and everyone else wrong?" Answer reality. I adhere to it, you don't.

Leary was no less rational than you are. There is no proof that the world you see around you is reality. If fact, modern physics describe the world in a much different way than you experience it with your senses. The reality you think you see, is described by physics as simple wave functions, solid matter is mostly emty space which is equivalent with energy, time is only a frame of reference and nothing can objectivly be said to exist. What reality is, is dependent on how you veiw it. One veiw is no more correct than another. The study of paralell universes and forces trancending time and space, are valid areas of study in theoretical physics.
You do not adhere to reality as modern science describes it. You adhere to reality as it was describe before quantum physics, before Einstein, before Bohr's atomic model, before string theory. You adhere to Newtonian reality. Which makes you more outdated than Plato. Now that's bad philosophy.

[asystole]

Hahaha I actually agree with you, it's pretty lame to take LSD and have a "magical realization"... and Timothy Leary had some interesting quotes but I also think he's kinda lame and just a burnout.


I just felt like arguing.


I also agree that lots of people bullshit and lie about trips to make theirs seem "crazier" and more intense than their friends, it's a dick wagging contest. I have become totally withdrawn from reality with the use of salvia though, that much I know for sure.


I used to think salvia was bullshit, and like you, I would get some visuals ect. but nothing fantastic... but then I came CLOSE to breaking through last time I used it and wow. I wasn't all there, hell, I wasn't anywhere. It gave me new faith in the drug. Read about the reverse tolerance of Salvia... it makes sense.

[Stingray_313]

I know this is kind of off topic, but I have noticed an increase in
people lying about USING Salvia. It has become the new "Badass" drug
where I'm from. It used to be marijuana and painkillers, but now people
are like "Hell yeah, Salvia is awesome. I always smoke up a bowl of
some x and have a great school day."... they dont even attempt to sound
real. If people keep being assholes like this then it WILL get
scheduled and that would be horrible to have something so great be
taken away beacuse of some stupid fuck teenagers who want to sound
badass.



It's not a recreational drug... it is a powerful herb that one should
not seem like a "Badass" to try. If someone really did smoke a bowl of
lets say, 15x and then went to school, they would most likely freak out
and have a bad trip OR not get ANYTHING just because of the surrounding
elements...



Can anyone else relate to what im talking about?

[Hyperreal]

Originally Posted by Softrat

Salvia is a psychedelic. This means it produces a psychedelic effect, not a delirient, not a dissociative. Because people are different in body make up and brain chemistry and the ideas they hold there will be a certain range of effects. It does not follow from this that anything is possible. Just as Salvia has a particular nature so does the human brain and body. And people only differ so much. This does place very real limits on the range of effects that a drug produces.

Words like 'psychedelic', 'dissociative', 'deliriant' etc. are too subjective and ill-defined to be used as a system for classifying drugs, at least not in the rigid way you've done here. 'Psychedelic' refers to something that creates a state of mind that is considered 'higher' or can give novel insight into the human condition. It is impossible to say in any definite way that one drug can do this and another cannot. I, and everyone I've discussed this with, have had experiences caused by alcohol that can be described as 'psychedelic'.


The effects of certain drugs can and do vary significantly from person to person. Prozac, for example, makes some people euphoric and some people suicidal. Not enough is known about salvia to dismiss the possibility that it is such a variable drug.