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Drug Policy Reform & Narco Politics The war on drugs, drug politics, how drugs influence politics & (inter)national conflicts.

 
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  #1  
Old 19-01-2009, 16:54
EyeCeyE EyeCeyE is offline
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Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Countless studies, multiple handfuls of data, oodles of research, hepatology data studies, and the common man is aware one of the most, dare i say, THE most dangerous drug to mankind is alcohol.
~The government are about to change the classification of Cannabis back to a class B drug because of its 'damaging effects and harmful symptomatology~
How much data is needed for them (the powers that be) to begin to look at the 'damaging effects and harmful symptomatology' of ethanol/alcohol/ETOH and put a classification on it?!?!?!?!

How much of the Health of the Nation criteria has been deliberately ignored just to fund the economy. All this damage; young binge drinkers, more hospital admissions than ever, and all this just for profit for the fat cat multi nationals to have exaggerated bonuses at the end of the tax year.

I know prohibition never worked but that does not mean we can turn a blind eye to the facts forever. Restriction is needed, not 'Drink responsibly' bullshit.

Increasing costs of alcohol is done purely to boost the economy and for the defecit from the closure of public houses in the uk. NOT to do with reducing binge drinking.

The government took 4 years to plow enough money into making cigarettes the work of satan and ban it everywhere, and soon it will be illegal to smoke out in the street. The government can do the same with alcohol, and significantly reduce its consumption before its too late.

Thats my rant, I hope you can contribute to the debate further

Peace EyeCeyE
  #2  
Old 19-01-2009, 17:06
Burnt Burnt is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Its ingrained in western society. Thats purely the reason. Cultures revere certain substances and hate others. For whatever racist, ignorant, religious, scientific etc reasons they have.

Alcohol should stay legal. But then other drugs that are clearly safer should also be legal. But try convincing a politician that is another story. Its a money game and they get rich keeping drugs illegal. They also get rich taxing alcohol.
  #3  
Old 19-01-2009, 17:10
doggy_hat doggy_hat is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Our governments don't make decisions based on logic, they make them on prejudices or greed. Alcohol has been a part of European culture for thousands of years, while just about every other drug has only became popular in the last century or two.
  #4  
Old 19-01-2009, 19:16
EyeCeyE EyeCeyE is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

I agree to your point actually, it should not and can not be made illegal, it has a tremendous amount of usefulness in cooking and many other pharmaceutical and scientific reasons , but you would have the godfather-esque bootlegging gangsters happening all over again,i.e, in this day and age; it would be gun-toting, gang warfare, like dem "can't get enough coke up ma nose" w**k*ers, with flashy excuberant yet tacky yellow Hummer,s and a flourish of cheap hookers adorning their bodies.
But alcohol should be treated with the same 'caution', highly unlikely but would like to see drinking as a moral and sociallly unacceptable tradition. If that happened the world could be so radically different. Less fighting, less domestic violence, less accidents on the road, let accidents in general, more thinking, more happier and more affluent.
  #5  
Old 19-01-2009, 21:29
humdroid humdroid is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Its not illegal, because of its destructiveness.
It has an emotional negative effect on many, and this has potential for generating fear in many ways.
It has an illusion of euphoria at first, so can be very alluring.
  #6  
Old 19-01-2009, 21:43
EyeCeyE EyeCeyE is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by humdroid View Post
Its not illegal, because of its destructiveness.
It has an emotional negative effect on many, and this has potential for generating fear in many ways.
It has an illusion of euphoria at first, so can be very alluring.

It is not illegal cos it provides a huge chunk of the national wealth, without fossil fuels, drugs, fags and booze....the economy would collapse!
So lets slowly kill ourselves hiding behind the fact that we are drinking the blood of christ himself!
  #7  
Old 19-01-2009, 22:11
Waffa Waffa is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

I am sore if Jesus would have smoked some pot and eat some shrooms (in Bible) then this would be pretty much "a norm" in these days and alcohol would be considered as evil... but he give alcohol to people..

Other sources say that Jesus & Moses (or who ever they was) actually tripped anyway on psychedelics while they speak with "god" or God when they was on their journey's (trips?).. but this is other story and not much to back it up with anything... but this would also explain why church do NOT want specially psychedelics to be legal - then we would all discover that god is inside all of us because.. we are one in some ways (or something like that)
  #8  
Old 19-01-2009, 23:15
Nanners Nanners is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

I've pondered this question many times myself, being the child of one of those "productive" alcoholics who can still manage to sustain a prosperous career yet drink enough on his time off to be found at any hour of the morning passed out through the house.

Just as the previous posts stated, I completely believe the use of alcohol is so ingrained into Western culture that despite ANY scientific or logical reasoning, policy makers simply will not admit to either the people or themselves it is equally or more dangerous than demonized drugs.
  #9  
Old 19-01-2009, 23:46
dimichaeltryptamine dimichaeltryptamine is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
Its ingrained in western society. Thats purely the reason. Cultures revere certain substances and hate others. For whatever racist, ignorant, religious, scientific etc reasons they have.

Alcohol should stay legal. But then other drugs that are clearly safer should also be legal. But try convincing a politician that is another story. Its a money game and they get rich keeping drugs illegal. They also get rich taxing alcohol.
Why don't they make certain drugs legal and tax them as well, thus making more money?
  #10  
Old 20-01-2009, 01:21
RaverHippie Gold member RaverHippie is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

"why is it still legal" (removed double negative for ease of reading)

...because prohibition worked so well the first time around...
  #11  
Old 20-01-2009, 07:50
DXMBunny DXMBunny is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

but then aren't anti prohibitionist.. just hypocrites? i mean prohibition has done the opposite of what it went out to accomplish... so then if druggies want prohibition removed to allow drugs... and they always say that making drugs legal will make less drug users and what not... then wouldnt druggies who want drugs available want prohibition since not having it would make less drugs?

lol im only kidding of course but its funny when you think about it
  #12  
Old 20-01-2009, 13:21
EyeCeyE EyeCeyE is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Prohibition of alcohol = Organized underground criminal activity with no controls, no safety and increased violence.

Prohibition of all other illicit substances = Organized underground criminal activity with no controls, no safety and increased violence.

Is it really so hard to see the correlation?!?!

EyeCeyE added 0 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...

The War on Drugs is a War on Ignorance

EyeCeyE added 69 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffa View Post
I am sore if Jesus would have smoked some pot and eat some shrooms (in Bible) then this would be pretty much "a norm" in these days and alcohol would be considered as evil... but he give alcohol to people..

Other sources say that Jesus & Moses (or who ever they was) actually tripped anyway on psychedelics while they speak with "god" or God when they was on their journey's (trips?).. but this is other story and not much to back it up with anything... but this would also explain why church do NOT want specially psychedelics to be legal - then we would all discover that god is inside all of us because.. we are one in some ways (or something like that)

Couldnt agree more, religion plays a huge part in the widespread cultivation of hops and grapes around the world. It is a poison, look what kills off wasps in the late summer, fermented apples, that is perhaps more likely the reason for fermentation

Last edited by EyeCeyE; 20-01-2009 at 13:21. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #13  
Old 20-01-2009, 21:02
Waffa Waffa is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

here is some more numbers why it's legal:

110 - 160 billion - amount people is US spend on alcohol
101.5 billion - amount spent on cigarettes in USA per year (used if price was $4.5 per pack)

- this is more then 5 million USA family incomes per year


Why anyone in the right mind would want to threaten this market (if you look this at business man point of view)?
Sorely there is some $167 billion dollars damages related to smoking alone (but most of this will not be payd by alcohol or cigarette companies, so why should they care) - but noone has published how much state wins if 450 000 people die per year earlier then they should - do not forget they will not take out their pension and other benefits they have paid in all their working life...

I afraid alcohol can beat this 167 figure with all the accidents and violence, or if not beat - then at least come close to cigarettes - anyway, if anyone have info about how much financial losses is related to alcohol - then let me know - i mean post it here.
Only thing alcohol and cigarette companies need to to is to spend little bit (10-100 million) to "health" advertisements and programs and they are fine.

(many EU country's have way bigger numbers per person & actually its pretty much useless to talk about billions because it's hard to understand how much money this is)





All this short thing is based on this small googeling i did, take look if you are interested:



"Americans are spending more than ever on their drinks, with sales of spirits, wine and beer increasing 47 percent from 1995 to 2005, to $160 billion, according to ACNielsen, a research firm that tracks retail sales of food and beverages. (Adjusted for inflation the increase was 14 percent.)
The trend is especially evident in liquor, with Americans drinking more of it, and paying even more for it. Measured by liters sold, sales of spirits are up 10 percent since 2002, said Information Resources, a market research firm. But as the price of bottles like Cavalli jumps higher, revenue from liquor sales is rising even faster — 21 percent since 2002..."



Some "softer" numbers... :

"The researchers estimated the value of underage drinking as $22.5 billion, while adult abusive drinkers accounted for $25.8 billion. Together, the value of underage and abusive drinking was $48.3 billion, or 37.5 percent of the total. Using a different dataset, the value was estimated at $62.9 billion, or 48.8 percent of all money spent annually on alcohol..."



The alcohol industry profits from children and has no economic interest to reduce underage drinking. Average age at which children begin drinking is 12 years old, presents an alarming cost to society.
The National Household Survey on Drug Abuse reports a 33 percent increase since 1975 of the proportion of children who begin drinking in eighth grade or earlier.
According to the first study, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, underage drinkers consume 20 percent of the drinks sold or more than 800,000 drinks a month.
A second study, released by The Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth at Georgetown University, shows that the alcohol industry targets and advertises its products to underage youth on radio. This is the third report that concludes that this underage market is overexposed to alcohol advertising. The other reports looked at TV and magazines.



The biggest alcohol companies try to portray themselves as good corporate citizens with advertising and education programs that emphasize “responsibility.” These public relations ploys are the industry's attempt to avoid responsibility for the consequences of its products and shift blame to individual consumers. If the alcohol industry is serious about responsibility, it should begin by ending its own irresponsible marketing to underage youth.
• Television ads for alcohol products outnumber “responsibility” messages by 32 to one.1
• From 2001 to 2003, the industry spent $2.5 billion on television product advertising, dwarfing the $92 million spent on responsibility programs by 27 to one.2
• In the same period, youth aged 12-20 were 96 times more likely to see a television ad for an alcohol product than an ad about the risks of underage drinking. They were 43 times more likely to see a product ad than a message about drinking and driving.3
• For young TV viewers aged 16-22, industry sponsored responsibility ads may actually encourage risky drinking behavior and increase alcohol sales.4


some more info...


currently there are 10.1 million underage drinkers in this nation (2002 National Household Survey On Drug Use and Health). Alcohol kills 6.5 times more kids than all other illicit drugs combined and is a major factor in the three leading causes of death of America’s teens: motor vehicle crashes, homicides and suicides. Underage drinking does not just harm the drinker: half of the people who die in traffic crashes involving underage drinking drivers are people other than the drinking drivers.

A Call to Action: Changing the Culture of Drinking at U.S. Colleges” found that each year more than 70,000 students aged 18-24 are victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rap

Long-term consequences of youth alcohol use have become more and more clear as research on the adolescent brain continues to emerge. The human brain continues to develop into the early 20’s. Studies show that heavy alcohol use by youth has disproportionately negative effects on the physical development of the brain, and that alcohol use during adolescence has a direct affect on brain functioning

http://www.alcoholfreechildren.org/e..._testimony.doc.




Only drug that can beat this number is tobacco (alot of this applies to alcohol also):


How many people smoke?

Cigarettes are smoked by over 1.1 billion people (this number sounds a bit to high actually..) Cigarettes cause more than one in five American deaths. & a lot of other data...


In 2001, an estimated 46.2 million USA adults (22.8%; 95% CI = +0.5) were current smokers; an estimated 37.8 million (81.8%) smoked every day


Money Spent for ads:

6 billion per year for advertisements in USA (this is after Philip Morris reduced 50% of ads in magazines on 1999).
When gov ASSIST program spend 128 million to let people know about dangers of smoking then tobacco company's same time period spend $47 billion to market tobacco in USA (according to Philip Morris they spend also $100 million a year to discourage underage smoking)


How to make more money by telling people "we do it for you":

"Let's make prices higer so people smoke less"
10% increase in cigarette prices leads to a 4% decline in smoking.2 Half of the 4% decline typically comes from declines in smoking prevalence and half from decreased consumption. Franks et al. note that some studies "have found that smokers in general and low-income smokers in particular may be relatively insensitive to cigarette pack prices. (basically tobacco company still wins)


"Let's advertise "saver" cigarettes to save people healtf"

as of 2004, half of American smokers preferred them over regular cigarettes [69], in spite the fact that the idea of a "safer" cigarette is a myth. Cigarettes that offer "low tar and nicotine" cause the smoker to smoke more or to inhale more deeply to get the same level of nicotine. According to The Federal Government’s National Cancer Institute (NCI), light cigarettes provide no benefit to smoker's health.[70][71]


More hidden ways goverment gains huge benefit by leting you smoke:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention published research in 2002 claiming that the cost of each pack of cigarettes sold in the United States was more than $7 in medical care and lost productivity.[65] The cost may be higher, with another study putting it as high as $41 per pack, most of which however is on the individual and his/her family.[66]

This is how one author of that study puts it when he explains the very low cost for others: "The reason the number is low is that for private pensions, Social Security, and Medicare — the biggest factors in calculating costs to society — smoking actually saves money. Smokers die at a younger age and don't draw on the funds they've paid into those systems."[66]

- So is there ANY reason why should goverment NOT like smokers?

(the benefits for companies and state should over power the fact that: The economic costs of smoking in the United States are estimated at $167 billion annually ($92 billion in productivity losses from premature death and $75.5 billion in health-care expenditures)

Other cool facts i noticed that some states in usa have up to 36 times less tax per cigarette pack ( 7c per pack only) then some other states. I wonder why state does not want to make extra billions?


So where ever you look - number are huge, human mind can not actually truly understand how big number is a 'billion' or how many times difference is one or 22 billion - it's, prooved.


So was thinking about making some raw calculations how much money is this what people spend for alcohol and cigarettes (these two are hand-in-hand, even tho this topic is about alcohol only, it helps to understand the bigger picture):


United states 35% man / 22% women's smoke according to World Health Organization Y2K report. ( EU 46% / 26%, Pacific 60 / 8, Africa 26 / 4, Asia 44 / 4% of women )

Also according to them 22 550 000 000 packs of cigarettes was consumed in USA on 1998 this makes aprx 500 pack per smoker if there are 45 million smokers & 300 packs per smoker per year if there is 75 million smokers... hard numbers

.. sooo that means 200 billion dollars (money spent on alco+cigarettes) is more then 5 million USA family entire average income (43 000+ per year)


No one would sale weed on these amounts because it's easy to grow and people would grow it themselves. Homemade cigarettes is hard to make, all these chemicals etc... and we all know how much work and energy takes to produce good alcohol in home - so gov knows most people will keep buying it from stores.


& in the end... as soon as they would ban alcohol it would be under control of criminals - we do not want that (some may ask - why would we want them to have control over drugs - but this is well.. bigger story .





Post Quality Evaluations:
thanks for putting together all of this good information

Last edited by Waffa; 31-01-2009 at 01:35.
  #14  
Old 23-01-2009, 08:24
Hollow Hippie Hollow Hippie is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Buy do you know what the government makes from tobacco and alcohol alone? To make them entirely illegal would be like banning pharmaceuticals, the government doesn't make decisions based on fact, it makes decisions based on whats better for the assholes who run it and the people that back them.
  #15  
Old 30-01-2009, 03:39
Chronix Chronix is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

One word man, MONEY. So much money is made by our govt. on the taxation of things like alcohol and cigarettes that despite the fact that they're so much more harmful than other, highly illegal, substances (Cannabis) it would be impossible to part with the profits.
  #16  
Old 30-01-2009, 05:18
bcubed Gold member bcubed is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Well, from a practical standpoint, it'd be impossible to prevent brewing, because all you need is a sugary liquid, a jug, and some time (yeast is desirable but one can use the wild yeast floating about if necessary).

Also, if you attempted to make it illegal, there'd be a rash of illnesses and death from alcoholics consuming non-potable alcohols in their desperation. (Ethanol is a necessary substance for reasons other than drinking--solvent, sterilizer, etc).
  #17  
Old 30-01-2009, 10:30
Joe-(5-HTP) Joe-(5-HTP) is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Who is the average person in the economy? the working class 45 Hour a week man/woman. They are depressed and emotionally damaged from having to support their family and feeling like failures for being so insignificant. What does alcohol do? It "drowns their sorrows": it enables them to forget how abysmally shit their lives are. If they were to take ecstasy or some actual interesting drugs they might start to reflect on their miserable lives and realize that it is the repressive society who requires the existence of such people that causes their problems: not their own failure.

Why is alcohol legal? Because it keeps the slaves in their place.
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Old 30-01-2009, 11:31
bennett211085 bennett211085 is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

I always wonder what if they did make it illegal, wouldn't the death rate drop to a point where the population grew at an unmanagable level?
I think the the death rate of any population is very carefully balanced to keep economies from collapsing.
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Old 30-01-2009, 18:11
Evil GIR Evil GIR is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

No, if they ban alcohol it would simply become a black market drug with all the benefits of being more expensive and mixed with methanol. Yup in places where vodka is bootleg this magic compound is often found mixed with which usually causes permanent blindness.
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Old 31-01-2009, 19:49
Politicalchalk Politicalchalk is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Just to throw in my two cents here, one reason alcohol is so available is because it likely saved people during the plague as a source of purified drinking water.
  #21  
Old 31-01-2009, 20:38
Evil GIR Evil GIR is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Wasnt it king heny the V who used to drink wine all the time becasue the water was bad ?
  #22  
Old 31-01-2009, 21:21
honourableone Gold member honourableone is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

Everyone in the middle (dark?) ages used to drink some form of alcohol because it was safer than the water.
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:01
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AW: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

I guess one of the main reasons are if you drunk to much Alcohol
you dont want to do in the next days!
Also when You did stupid things when you are drunk
you feel ashamed as long as you remember!

If you take Heroin or THC most of the People will do it again and again!
  #24  
Old 10-02-2009, 12:33
Pope Albacore Pope Albacore is offline
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

SWIM has always felt that alcohol is not illegal because of its ties to "old money". During prohibition, socialites and politicians filled the speakeasies at night causing alcohol to maintain its "social" lubricant(drug) image. SWIM thinks this may have a lot to do with alcohol never receiving the extremely bad press that marijuana and LSD did.

Overall, SWIM thinks that the tide is slowly(and he does mean slowly) turning towards eventual mainstream acceptance of marijuana due to the old stigmas dying off with close-minded individuals. SWIM says that in the East Texas community where he was raised, the elderly still socially accept alcohol and condemn marijuana use as a "tool" of the devil. Kinda lame, kids.

-Pope Albacore

Last edited by Pope Albacore; 10-02-2009 at 16:03.
  #25  
Old 10-02-2009, 14:05
Mammon Mammon is offline
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Join Date: 19-01-2008
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Re: Alcohol: Why is it not illegal?

O.K. SWIM will state straight away that all this alco-bashing pisses him off. There always seem to be people on the DF who want to say it’s shit and should be illegal and that their drug of choice should be legal and that everything would be great if we all smashed back a load of E’s or smack while smoking a crackpipe or joint after work.

The issue is simple: alcohol is a drug with upsides and downsides, just like every other fucking drug there is. SWIM loves booze, he’s tried pretty much everything under the sun (not datura, not jenkum) and concludes that booze is the one he loves the best. Almost heresy on this forum, he knows, but that’s the way it is.

People get angry, SWIM knows, when they see the hypocrisy in the general populace who don’t see alcohol as a “drug”, and crap schemes like FRANK banging on about how smoking weed gonna melt your brain, etc. There is no consistent standard under which we can say alcohol and fags should be legal but any number of other drugs shouldn’t be. The reasons, SWIM guesses, are historical.

The point SWIM is making is that people shouldn’t hate alcohol because it’s legal. It’s an excellent drug. He also thinks that almost all drugs should also be legal and controlled. If they were all as available to everyone as booze is he thinks people would see problems that don’t arise when a drug is taken only by subsets of a population.

Anyway, don’t be hating on the booze – for all the pain it’s brought it’s also provided mankind with uncountable amazing experiences through our existence.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Indeed, this side of the argument is important to the issue.

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