Experiences - Using Suboxone To Save An Overdoser

[KRISSTO]

Let me start by saying that you shouldn't shoot up Suboxone. However, I have to share this with people because a short time ago I woke up to my wife laying on me with her face all blue and her lips were white. I saw the needle next to her and the alcohol pad on the bed. I know Suboxone has Naloxone in it so I crushed up a pill and filtered it through a cigarette butt and drew it into a syringe. Now with Naloxone, they tell you not to waste time and to just shoot it into a muscle but I knew she may develop an abscess if I did that so I found her favorite hit spot very quickly and shot it directly into her bloodstream. 30 seconds later, she came around and was in intense withdrawal. The paramedics were called but I gave them the apartment number across the hall in case the suboxone worked. My wife was on parole at the time and would have been in deep shit for using. So while I understand the risks of shooting up Suboxone, the alternative was death. I had no idea how long she'd been out but I didnt feel her breathing at all. So now she is alive and she went to her regular doctor and reported what had happened and got chewed out by him but the fact is that she is alive today because of it. He prescribed her some antibiotics in case of an abscess or infection and sent us on our way. Now, I'm not saying this will work all the time but the Naloxone in Suboxone is the exact same stuff that the paramedics will shoot you with to counteract the heroin when you stop breathing because of an overdose. If I'm wrong for suggesting this, then sue me but if it saves a life then it was worth it. The standard dose of naloxone in a rescue situation is .4 mg/ml. In the 8/2mg. Suboxone, that is the equivalent to 1/5 of a pill. Any medical professionals out there have any comments on this? Please let me know if I am dead wrong. Her doctor told me I did the right thing but he's no pro on oopiates or overdose patients.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Wow, that is a good idea, thanks

[Sib]

Sounds like a good idea, hows the wife now?

[KRISSTO]

She is doing her homework to become a Harley Davidson certified mechanic. We have kicked the habit and are enjoying life. A scare like that I think will prevent us from relapse for a long time anyway. We've at least made a rule to not do opiates 2 days in a row and not more than 2x a week. That is if we do use again. I'm really surprised that more people havent realized that about the Suboxone. It would make for a good advertisement for it anyway huh? "SUBOXONE...IT CAN SAVE YOUR LIFE". I can joke about it now but for weeks I had nightmares and every time I closed my eyes, I saw her face all blue and cold with her eyes rolled in the back of her head and her jaw dropped open. I thought for sure she was at minimum going to be brain damaged at least but I must have woken to her falling on me is what I've concluded. We used to shoot Suboxone for fun before we started doing heroin. Then one time we ran out of h and I didnt know what Naloxone was and I shot myself with Suboxone and man, it was the worst feeling in my life. It felt like I was dying. Never again. But I still keep a couple around to give to friends (with warning) and for if we decide to use again. Sorry I'm rambling. She's doing great.

[Sib]

Good to hear you're both clean and happy, I'm glad you posted it because my friend almost found himself in the same position last night, so now I can pass on the advice in case it happens again.
My own detox starts in 1 day and I'm feeling really good about it, after counting up what I have spent I could cry, ah well let the challenge commence. So how long have you been clean? I think it's good you have each other, my GF is a recovering alcoholic which actually helps to keep me clean, I was clean 7 months there but relapsed the last 3 months (won't do that again)

[KRISSTO]

Well, it was only a couple months ago and since then, I've been telling everyone I know about it and just yesterday I realized that I need to tell everyone about it that I possibly can. I've never joined a site before and since yesterday, I've joined about half a dozen or so to spread the news to people. I hope I help people worldwide to stay a little safer and reduce the lives taken by OD. I may get sued or reprimanded somehow someday for all I know but I really don't care because just about everyone I know who shoots opiates knows someone who could have been saved or who could have been revived sooner if they would have known this. I was told by my doc who prescribes me Suboxone that it is basically harmless to the majority of people. (When used sublingually of course) And there is a very small percentage of people who are hypersensative to Naloxone that may encounter difficulties but the paramedics who inject OD victims dont know these things about you before they give you a shot of Naloxone so you will have a better chance of knowing these things about a friend then a paramedic would. So of course there are risks involved but to most people it will be well worth a shot. Or two shots if the first one isn't enough. I'm no doctor, just a pothead who got into the opiates too far before I even had a clue what I was in for. The good thing though, is now I don't have cravings to smoke weed any more. After 18 years of smoking weed, I thought I'd never quit.

KRISSTO added 16 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

Let me just say this. If this saves you or someone you know, then consider donating to this website. We need sites like this to thrive so we can share stories and learn from others mistakes and experience. I wish I had the money to give but I am disabled and am supporting my wife in school and our 10 year old special needs daughter. But if this info helps you or a loved one, it's worth the price of a bag of dope isn't it?

[KRISSTO]

After posting this, I contacted some people in the medical field and the makers of Suboxone to ask opinions and advice on this idea. Naturally, not a single professional will condone trying this. I want to share some of the additional risks involved that I hadn't thought of myself. First, I was reminded that Suboxone has buprenorphine in it. This means of course that when you give it to someone in any fashion, you are essentially giving that person more of the same stuff that they are OD'd on to begin with. So when the naloxone wears off in 20 minutes to an hour, there is a risk of an OD returning, maybe worse than before, or so I'm told. Of course then you may be prepared a little better. Call the paramedics before you do anything stupid. Legal problems will pass in time. What I did was in a panicked state of mind and I didn't take time to think of other potential dangers I may be inflicting. I would even say that I was temporarily insane, waking up to a dead or dying wife could do that to someone. There is a risk of infection and blah blah blah non sterile injection blah blah blah. There IS A VERY SERIOUS RISK of someone throwing up and choking on their vomit. Be prepared to take necessary precautions to prevent that. When someone is given a Naloxone injection that has a habit, they will go into very bad withdrawals and may become violent and may be disoriented and if this person can whip your ass, they just might do that because all the weeks worth of misery that comes with detoxing from opiates all hits them in a split second and DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT let them get high again to try to gain back their buzz. It wont work. I know you already know that but I had to say it anyway. Somebody may fall while trying to walk around afterwards so make them lay down or sit down at least. Even if they have to shit. They can shower and change later. Whats the use of saving someone if they take a nose dive through a glass top coffee table two seconds later? It wont kill you to develop an overdose plan or to make a kit for one just in case. If you have access to Narcan (Naloxone) without the bupe in it, then use that instead of course. I didn't have that option at the time but even though we're clean (for now at least), I've gotten my hands on some vials of the injectible solution and some larger syringes used for muscle shots. Ask the person at the needle exchange if there is resources in your area to get a Narcan kit legally. There is a movement in the US that started in Chicago I think where they are starting to provide Narcan kits to addicts by means of prescription. Look! Now you have a prescription that requires you to possess needles! Show that one to the cops next time. Why do you need that prescription? Its none of their business is it? Maybe you are a part of a support group that deals with junkies. Maybe you volunteer at a shelter or a soup kitchen where a junkie may be occasionally found in the bathroom with a needle sticking out of their temple. Whatever. Doesn't matter. If they bother you about it, they will find themselves in a sling. Back to the topic though. Nobody I've spoken to in the medical field has argued that Suboxone won't work (theoretically) as I know it did to revive an OD victim. Find me a doctor who says it wont work, and I'll find you a complete moron with a PHD. They will not condone it because the FDA has not approved it for this use. Like I give a shit about the FDA when someone I love is about to become a vegetable or die because there is a train blocking the paramedics from making it to my house. I can only imagine how many people are dead today who could have been alive and they may have died 2 feet away from a bottle of Suboxone with someone there trying to give them standard CPR procedures which we know dont work so well in these cases all the time. Maybe a junkie doesn't know CPR. You sure as hell know how to crush a pill and find a vein though don't you? Or maybe not even find a vein. just stab and shoot. Risk vs. Reward. Use your own judgement. Take my word for it or tell me what a dumbass I am. Wouldn't be the first time I heard it. Ask a doctor who deals with Suboxone if what I say is true. He won't tell you to do what I did. But he can't deny that it would work either. BUT REMEMBER!!! Naloxone wears off within an hour. You should use this time to get to a medical facility or professional. I thought it would be an idea to call the paramedics first, give them the neighbors address, and that way if you can revive someone within that time, good for you. Then maybe you can avoid getting in trouble. At least for now. If you can't get someone to come to, then help is on the way.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great harm reduction info, & fantastic homework! A few paragraphs woul've been good to aid readability, but a small...

[Handle]

Hey KRISSTO, actually, I think you might have benn better off with suboxone, because actually, after the naloxone wears off [and naloxone is a full antagonist] then you get the effects of bupw which is still a partial ag/antag.

Now that's good, because it will continue to protect the person from the full effects of the heroin overdose after the naloxone wears off [which you correctly stated happens very quickly]

There is one scenario, that if the person had a load of sedative pills, AND opiates, if you gave them way too much suboxone, then when the nal wears off the bupe would be very hard to reverse.

BUT, that scenario is so far fetched, the amount of sub needed to create that risk would be almost impossible to load up, even with great effort, hardly a threat in the quick rush to revive someone.

I forget, that living in Australia, overseas, some doctors etc. can be real assholes, really inhumane, and calling an ambulance can get you in legal trouble. This is just plain wrong, forcing people to weigh up their dying friend/partner's liberty and their life. This is what deters people from seeking urgent medical attention, because they get punished for it! It's a disgrace.

So, in all, maybe the docs you've spoken to are all dead against it, but that's no surprise, it's actually an example of good lateral thinking, and if it resussed a woman and saved her time in jail, it's sad that people are forced into it, but a good effort.

[KRISSTO]

Well I think docs advise against it because of liability and it's not FDA approved for that. They dont want people playing paramedic but they don't deny it will work either. They sure can't tell me any different. I'm surprised as hell that I seem to be the first person to realize this method. I've been contacted by some big shot who wants to pay me to publish my story now and Reckitt, the makers of Suboxone want me to shut the hell up. Who's gonna cut the biggest check now is the question. I just came out with this story three days ago and it has been insane ever since. I never thought it would be this crazy but apparently this is really big news to some people. I am disabled and barely able to provide for my family (better since I got off the smack) and now I have an opportunity to leave something behind that could help my family in the future as well as to help countless people just like myself. People who maybe made some bad decisions in life. Nobody deserves to die or be imprisoned just because they want to feel good, kill pain, or self medicate. If I get a good size check, I'll donate a good chunk to this website for providing me the chance to speak. This is my first time on any forum anywhere and I've gotten some good positive feedback from people here. I'm going to do what I can to help promote the cause and I'll encourage others to do the same. Whatever you choose to do in life, it doesn't hurt to do your homework. Be safe.

KRISSTO added 11 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...

And maybe that is how Reckitt will get their patent extended for Suboxone. The patent expires within a year or so and unless they find a new use for it, then competing pharmaceutical companies will soon be able to manufacture generic versions. Maybe they'll call it an OD kit or something just so they could hold their monopoly on it for a few more years. I've done a lot of research since the situation happened with my wife and I've done a few experiments with it too. I'll start a thread soon with the results I've found. I know a lot of people are helped by suboxone with it's legitimate use but it kind of pisses me off that they would put that naloxone shit in it. They didn't have a choice though I hear. The FDA wont let them give us pure bupe to take home for OBVIOUS reasons but a drug addict might not know about the naloxone and really put themself through a very hellish experience. There are ways to extract the bupe but that's for another thread. Be safe people and use the buddy system when getting high. By the time you realize something is wrong with you, it could be too late.

[Junkhead23]

Here is a what to do in the event of an overdose that SWIM made

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73119

[KRISSTO]

That's good information Junkhead. I had no clue what to do for someone until after it happened and then I took it seriously and researched it. A lot of people I guess go through this multiple times and keep using. It scared the shit out of me and I still have nightmares of my wife doing it again. When she makes noises in her sleep, I almost go into panic attacks. I don't think I'll ever use any hard substances again. It completely changed our agenda and we have a much higher quality of life because of it. Thanks for sharing that with us. It's a good summary and I will print it out and give it to my friends that I think it will help.

[drug-bot]

this is extremly bad advice, by the time it takes to 'fix' a suboxone and find a vein, which both take precious time and could lead to death; and an IM shot can take up to 10min to take effect leaving the od victim dead. not to mention the amount of naloxone in the pill may not be enough to reverse a serious od. the best thing to do is to disregard ALL legal consequences and call for an ambulance so the victim can be injected with an appropriate amount of narcan by medical proffessionals. to surmise- dont play doctor when someones life is in danger.

to the OP swiy was very very lucky, and swim would suggest against propagating this or trying it again, it could have catastophic consequences, peace.

[Surealism313]

'SWIM' was out of dope one day and thought that crushing 2mg of sub and IVing it would get him high. Well he did and as soon as he did it caused tingling and a very stange feeling. This scared him and he tried to go to bed and did.

'SWIM' is not sure if sub is good to use in an OD situation but wanted to report that he had tried it and is alive today. ALSO wanted to mention that there is no antidode for sub so you may make the problem much worse.

'SWIM' thinks that you should be able to buy narcan OTC and it would save many lives.

[KRISSTO]

Drugbot, you seem to have the same advice that a law enforcement officer would give. People have tried this and have had positive results and if you try to tell me that I was wrong, then tell that to my wife. If I had followed what you said, I would have attended her funeral. People already know how to call the paramedics. People don't want to go to jail or listen to people who advise them to get themselves thrown in jail. Look it up and do the math. A single shot of Naloxone from a paramedic delivers .4 mg/ml An 8/2 mg sub has 2 mg of Naloxone in it. That means 1/5 of a tablet is the same amount of naloxone. Yeah, I just checked with my 4th grader and she agrees. Why don't you stick to writing what you know. Math isn't your strong subject so maybe try fingerpainting. It takes less than a minute to get a 1/4 tablet into a syringe. Unless your hands are crippled and you are doing it with your toes. You obviously don't know what you are talking about so I'm sorry for dignifying your ignorance with a response. Several people on this site alone have tried this even before I posted it and these people know what I'm talking about. This is not a topic to be taken lightly and while your advice is the "government approved" advice, not too many people here care what the government thinks. Suboxone dissolves so easily and quickly that you barely have to crush it once you add water. 10 minutes? Are you fucking serious? In ten minutes, my wife was already up and making a pot of coffee while going through full precip withdrawals after smoking most of a cigarette. It takes the paramedics 10 minutes just to get out of the garage. You think it's a bad idea? Then you can watch someone die while clutching a telephone and preparing to spend the next 3 to 5 in state prison. Nobody's trying to play doctor anyway. We get narcan from the needle exchange and training for an OD. So there is absolutely no difference in my method except for the buprenorphine which I have posted warnings about. But sure, you've said your opinion and everybody's got one of their own.

[warandhate]

I'm very happy it worked for you krissto but those pills are designed not to be injected.

IMO I would call the ambulance or start driving to the hospital before crushin a sub and gettin a rig to shoot into an ODer...

whatever works.

In the heat of the moment in your situation I dont know if I would have been able to perform as fast as you did! Nice "give them the APT across the hall trick" .

[KRISSTO]

Thanks WAR, I'm not saying it's the best answer but it is an alternative that has worked for some people. I don't condone people trying to play paramedic but in the case where someone may just be left for dead,(which happens way too much) it could save someone's life. A lot of people who live in rural areas can have a paramedic response time of up to 45 minutes. I'm not sure if I can post links to another website here or not but there are statistics on this. I wish we all had access to the regular Narcan shots but everybody doesn't have that in their area. I'm only suggesting this in extreme situations where someone may just run away and leave the person to die or if you know that the paramedics will never get there in time, or in my case, I woke up and had no idea how long she had already been out. I think that people should do it the right way too but reality is that there are times when it just isn't going to happen that way. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to steer people wrong. If I thought that I was going to get someone hurt, I would ask that everything I've said here to be deleted. But I know that it works and I will ask anyone that I may get high with in the future to do it to me if I fall out. But I won't ever touch dope again. It's been a while since this happened and we haven't had any ill effects from doing this. I didn't even tell anyone about it until I had done what I consider to be a lot of research. I've probably spent 500 or 600 hours researching this. I have spoken to countless people on medical based forums and in person and on the phone. I knew that there is a lot of dangers involved with doing this but it is, in my opinion, the lesser of 2 evils. The type of people who shoot up any drugs are obviously disregarding the warnings against it. When somebody OD's, chances are they've disregarded the warnings about that also. Everybody knows that when you buy shit on the street, you are subjecting yourself to potential disaster to begin with. A large percentage of heroin comes from countries like afghanistan which is not too friendly with the US in particular. I'm surprised that we haven't gotten loads of dope with some shit like anthrax in it. It's a very big risk to even put any of this shit in your body whether by IV or not. So after assuming all the risk that's brought someone to OD, the risk involved with shooting a suboxone tablet is very minimal by comparison. At least the tablets are pharmaceutical grade and won't contain rat poison or shit like that. When I was given the Narcan kit, I was instructed to just load it into the needle and shoot it into a muscle, right through the shirt or pants. The Chicago Recovery Alliance started the movement to give addicts the Narcan kits. Look it up for more information. California is following right behind when the California Senate Bill (SB)767, the Overdose Treatment Liability Act, which was cosponsered by the Harm Reduction Coalition, was passed in a 5 to 0 vote by the bipartisan California Senate Judiciary Committee on May 8th, 2007. So people are getting the Narcan kits with the training to use them in many places. Now the only difference between the kits and the suboxone tablets is the other shit in the tablets. Yeah, there is binders and fillers and some sweet shit to make it so yummy, but who knows what the dealer down the street decided to cut your dope with anyway. So it's a very small price to pay to save a life.