Health - Harm reduction / Prevention - Why is this never in the media?

[entheogensmurf]

Do any of you know why using supplements are never addressed when MDMA news pops up in regard to debate, scheduling, damage, etc. ?

Who cares if a substance or action is harmful if used naked. Imagine football in the USA, if those hulking humans didn't put on all of that body armor. They'd destroy their bodies when smashing head on as they currently do.
Now, when I say "who cares," I do not mean ignore and not address the dangers.
They must be known, especially as it will help many gain comprehension as to why it IS important to take the safety steps -- steps they may in fact skip over without the data.


To a limited extent, this seems to go along the lines of when people shun cannabis use, they ONLY refer to smoking it and from that attempt to use the fact that smoking is the most damaging method of intake (still minor if not abused). It's amunition that has no place in their weak defense and it's a disingenuous tactic, in my opinion.

Surely some, those who condem cannabis use are completely ignorant of any method other than smoking


So, just as with cannabis, it seems rational to promote vaporizing over smoking and with MDMA, that people pre/post dose to diminish the hangover.

I also don't recall any of these supplements being mentioned/used with the research being conducted on PTSD. Although, the dose they use is significantly less than what people use in a recreational setting -- maybe it's not a factor at that dose? I'll probably be sending an email off to MAPS.org to inquire about this question.

I will never fall from the concept of harm reduction. This is especially so, due to the simple fact that even if we feel a substance should not be used, we need to face reality. People will continue to use whatever the heck they want and harm reduction is the only logical route (making it illegal as we have seen for 30+ years, creates more harm than good).

Thanks for any input.


The bit below was typed up by Advanc3d over on BL. There are several posts in addition this this initial one, but I simply wanted to provide a base reference point to pre/post dose fun:

Harm protection supplements
1. Melatonin
Description: Powerful antioxidant and a good sleep regulator

Dosage: 3mg sublingual post usage

2. Quercetin
Description: one of my favourite supplements inhibits enzyme CYP3A4, one a few enzymes responsible for the breakdown of MDMA, therefore potentiates MDMA. It exerts potent antioxidant activity and vitamin C-sparing action.
COMT Inhibitor
MAO-B Inhibitor

Dosage: One capsule, it’s wise to take with Vitamin C and/or with other antioxidants


3. Ascorbyl Palmitate
Description: Fat Soluble Vitamin C, lasts in the body a lot longer than normal vitamin C and it has better antioxidant properties

Dosage: 2000mg before Stimulant usage, it is advised to take it with food to enhance absorption

4. Milk Thistle
Description: Liver protecting supplement

Dosage: This is something you should take every day, it protects liver and restores it back to optimal health

5. Magnesium
Description: Reduces tolerance, Reduces jaw clenching whilst on MDMA and a overall muscle relaxant

Dosage: Everyday, 400mg

Note: Take chelate form of magnesium, none of the bullshit Oxide and other forms, they have terrible bio-availability.

6. Piracetam
Description: Another must get supplement, Modulates Serotonin and dopamine receptors, Enhances neurotransmission, Anti Oxidant, and also potentiates all stimulants. Makes your peak feel more clean

Dosage: 3200mg before stimulant and after

7. 5-HTP
Description: Precursor to Serotonin, increases serotonin levels

Dosage: 100mg x 3 post MDMA usage. Do not take it for more than 5 days in a row without dopamine precursors; otherwise it will cause depletion of dopamine – take with Green Tea

8. Green Tea extracts (EGCG)
Description: Another MUST GET supplement, VERY POWERFUL antioxidant, 200x more than Vitamin E. COMT Inhibitor which is one of the many enzymes responsible for the breakdown of MDMA. It is also a Decarboxylase inhibitor so it potentiates 5-htp and l-dopa

Dosage: Take with 5-htp so that 5-htp gets converted to serotonin in the brain and not in your gut, also before MDMA usage for potentiation and powerful antioxidant activity. Dose: 300mg of 40% EGCG extract

9. Vitamin C
Description: Anti oxidant

Dosage: 3000mg pre stimulant, 2000mg x 4 the next day. Take with EGCG and other anti oxidant

10. Deprenyl (Selegiline)
Description: MAO-B inhibitor, not to be mistaken with ordinary MAOI's. it reduces cardiovascular toxicity, inhibits formation of peroxides in the brain. inhibits Dopamine metabolism. it may revive dead neurons in the brain. it may reverse neurotoxicity. It is even said it inhibits neurotoxicity from METH use.

Dosage: 2.5mg with food 1 hour before MDMA usage

11. Taurine
Description: General cellular health supplement, its a amino acid as well as a neuromodulator. Its a neuroprotector and regulates Calcium ions in the brain. its also a great anti-anxiety agent

Dosage: 1500mg before food a day

12. L-Theanine
Description: Glutamate receptor antagonist (AMPA, Kainate, NMDA), Dopamine releaser, Enhances focus, mood, and memory. reduces anxiety and nervousness

Dosage: 200mg per dose. good relaxant post mdma usage and pre

13. Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate
Description: NGF agent (nerve growth factor) stimulates the growth of neurites in the brain. it MAY reverse neurotoxicity and protect the brain from peroxynitrites (very potent neurotoxin that causes harsh oxidative stress)

Dosage: 2000mg a day of Ordinary Acetyl-l-Carnitine, or 800mg of Arginate form. its a good idea to have a combination of both as they work together

Note: Arginate is fairly expensive but it is a lot more potent and beneficial, otherwise you can just get the normal Acetyl-L-Carnitine

14. L-Dopa
Description: like 5-htp, its a direct precursor to Dopamine, a lot better than tyrosine.

Dosage: Take in morning before food with Green Tea, 200mg. its a good idea if your taking 5-htp at night to have this the following morning for optimal neurotransmitter levels.

Note: DO NOT TAKE for atleast 24 hours after MDMA usage as the excess dopamine may get trapped by SERTS that have been activated by MDMA and cause oxidative stress.


15. Inositol
Description: Regulates serotonin, Calcium Ion concentration control, which means controls build up of tolerance to amphetamines. also increases REM activity during sleep

Dosage: 1000-2000mg a day, usually before sleep.


16. Fish Oil
Description: Contains Omega 3 fatty acids that has numerous health benefits, one of which supports vascular health, dopamine transmission and etc

Dosage: depending on what brand you got, since they all have different concentrations. i take about 4-6 fish oil capsules a day (EPA:400mg DHA:200mg in each capsule) with food


17. Alpha lipoic acid
Description: Very effective antioxidant, passes through the blood brain barrier more efficently that most other Anti oxidants.

Dosage: Pre: 300mg, during: 600mg, post: 300mg x 3

Note: there are many forms, such as stablized ones that cost a fortune. up to you which you pick. they all work the same except one would be more potent then the other. - the dosage above is for the ordinary Alpha lipoic acid


18. Tianeptine (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Enchancer)
Description: a very unique Anti depressant that works opposite to SSRI's, instead of inhibiting the uptake of serotonin back to the pre-synapse it enhances it. meaning it increases your overall serotonin storage rather than aiding its depletion that SSRI's do...

Dosage: recommended 12.5mg 3x a day, there is been a report with someone taking 240 tablets a day for several months and was later successfully detoxified.

Note: this will probably work better than anything to increase your "true" serotonin levels long term and restore them to optimal levels. this is the most worth while drug to take but its precription only. apparently its legal to import without.


will keep updating .....



Antioxidant Note
Remember, Antioxidants always work together synergetically. Once a antioxidant supplement does its job, it turns to the oxidated form which becomes useless. in presence of another antioxidant, it is recycled....




Sources

[1]Guide to Neurotransmitter depletion
- http://neuroassist.com/Depletion1.htm
- Explains everything about how giving precursors to neurotransmitters depletes other neurotransmitters and how the only way to correct neurotransmitter levels is to take both dopamine and serotonin precursors and not just the one
- also explains how SSRI's cause long term depression and serious depletion of serotonin

[2]Green Tea Polyphenols: Novel Irreversible Inhibitors of Dopa Decarboxylase
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7f770b73b9e269

[3]Dr Bob, View on Magnesium and amphetamine tolerance.
- http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20081016/msgs/858452.html

[4]Information on Acety-l-Carnitine and health benefits
- http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art2256&zTYPE=2
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19015003

will keep updating sources too

Reputation Comments on this post:

	great wealth of information in your post
	Very good and detailed post! Found it very interesting.
	Fantastic post and great information. Thanks
	Great post, an absolute must-read in SWIM's opinion!

[KomodoMK]

Really appreciate the list and explanation of supplements, a couple on there I have never come across before. I can see it being useful to quite a few people on here. Great post!

[CuriousJOE]

Great post mate, 5 star.

[Tweak322]

Wow, thank you! Very helpful & very informative

[advanc3d]

I made that post on BL, if anyone wants any additional information, they may PM me.

the list on BL is updated every so often.

[Readux]

amazing post, really helpful , but SWIM is wondering, would taking all 18 of these in a short period simultaneously cause more damage then help? Just wondering.

[KomodoMK]

Personally, I wouldn't want to take that many supplements at all, let alone at once. I would take a few at a time, those which look like they could be most beneficial to your current needs, and would discontinue use when not required. You never know what kind of interactions could take place between that many chemicals in your body at one time over the long term.

For example, 5-HTP taken with Vitamin B6 over a long period has been suggested to have health implications including, but not limited too cardio fibrosis. This example is debatable/inconclusive but it illustrates the point none the less.

[advanc3d]

Originally Posted by Readux

amazing post, really helpful , but SWIM is wondering, would taking all 18 of these in a short period simultaneously cause more damage then help? Just wondering.

well no,

i wouldnt recomend taking everything at once, thought it wont hurt you. wou would throw up but thats about it.

Pre MDMA SwiM loads with 8 different anti oxidants and some other things.
Post MDMA, he loads with NMDA receptor antagonists, i.e magnesium, taurine, inositol and etc.. mainly to prevent tolerance and neurotoxicity caused by influx of calcium caused by NMDA being worked up. this is one of the worst kind of neurotoxin. i also take the same 8 or so antioxidants post load.

He doesn't bother with 5-htp anymore because "low" serotonin isnt what we should be concerned about, but the down regulation of the receptors is what makes us feel depressed.. in this case anyway.

[KyleM]

Most of those should be harmless in combination. Deprenyl with a dopamine precursor sounds like it could potentially be harmful as it sounds analogous to combining 5-HTP or L-tryptophan with an MAO-A inhibitor, which is known to be potentially harmful, though I haven't seen proof either way. I've seen super multi-vitamins with around 50 different supplements, antioxidants, and vitamins and what not in one large pill, so I'm sure combining most of the ones listed above at once should be fine, just don't take high doses of multiple supplements at once so your liver can process it. Otherwise much of this sounds promising, I will definitely try some of these out and post results. Great work entheogensmurf by the way.

[Readux]

SWIM has also started a cocktail of supplements which includes, vitamin c, vitamin e, fish oil, green tea extracts, milk thistle, 5-htp, piracetam, and vinpocetine. Hopefully this combination works out and SWIM will post results in a week

[advanc3d]

Originally Posted by KyleM

Most of those should be harmless in combination. Deprenyl with a dopamine precursor sounds like it could potentially be harmful as it sounds analogous to combining 5-HTP or L-tryptophan with an MAO-A inhibitor, which is known to be potentially harmful, though I haven't seen proof either way. I've seen super multi-vitamins with around 50 different supplements, antioxidants, and vitamins and what not in one large pill, so I'm sure combining most of the ones listed above at once should be fine, just don't take high doses of multiple supplements at once so your liver can process it. Otherwise much of this sounds promising, I will definitely try some of these out and post results. Great work entheogensmurf by the way.

Serotonin is a whole different deal.

Serotonin has one path way of metabolism.. by MAO-A and in low light conditions small amounts are turned to Melatonin.

Dopamine can be metabolised by COMT, selectively by MAO-B and non selectively by MAO-A. and also by a whole different enzyme to Noradreanline (ascorbic acid co-factor)..

Deprenyl at large doses can inhibit MAO-B by 90%. but usually not anymore than, even though its a irreversible inhibiton, it is still getting replaced by new enzymes.

think of it like this, you cant obtain 100% pure Alcohol? why because as soon as you open the lid, it will absorb moisture from the air and will become 99%.

the MAO-A inhibition of deprenyl isnt because MAO-B was inhibited so much as though there is no more MAO-B and now its binding to MAO-A, infact deprenyl at any dose is a MAO-A inhibitor, just that at doses bellow 10-20mg it is very slightly effecting MAO-A.


Although taking MAOI-B, COMT inhibitors with such stimulants will do good rather than bad. Deprenyl doesnt potentiate amphetamine like drugs. only PEA and PEA type drugs, i.e 2c-b, mescaline. but this combination is as bad as taking MDMA with MAO-A inhibitors.

[ComfortablyNumb]

What also helps if you can get hold of any of those orange juice or other juices high in anti-oxidants will help if you drink them before, during and after taking MDMA. Will help you fell better in the morning and is good for your body.

[advanc3d]

Originally Posted by ComfortablyNumb

What also helps if you can get hold of any of those orange juice or other juices high in anti-oxidants will help if you drink them before, during and after taking MDMA. Will help you fell better in the morning and is good for your body.

sure but oranges are 50mg vitamin c per 100g... its more benefical to take vitamin c as a supplement since we need atleast 1000mg under oxidative stress.

[Micklemouse]

A Certain Mouse would heartily recommend Berocca as both a pre & post mdma (& other experiences) supplement - ridiculous amounts of vitamin C, B vitamins & many other goodies in a handy orangey effervescent tablet.

[RaverHippie]

It would be nice if all of those were OTC...

Great post and to the MAPS question I believe their doses were 100mg for each therapy session and I never read anything concerning preventative supplements in their procedural literature.

[advanc3d]

Originally Posted by RaverHippie

It would be nice if all of those were OTC...

Great post and to the MAPS question I believe their doses were 100mg for each therapy session and I never read anything concerning preventative supplements in their procedural literature.

only 2 or so arent OTC.

[RaverHippie]

Yeah my raver friend expressed interest in experimenting with selegeline after I pointed this post out to him but he didn't know how to fake early symptoms of parkinson's in order to get a script for it

[Samadhi]

the title is a little indication of itself

Harm reduction / Prevention - Why is this never in the media?

okay, who here knows the US government (everyone raises hands)...

okay, now who here ever sees illegal substances placed into the media in any way besides backwards facts and large red danger signs and spinning lights with a nice visual image of a person being in a horrible state/pretty future-having kids in body bags...

any hands?

didn't think so....

If the media ever displayed facts on how to prevent the bad/unknown effects of illegal drugs they would be showing what the government may not even know... The day they teach responsible drug use and harm prevention will be the day Reagan finally gets up from his coffin and rains supremacy down upon the un-cultured drug felons of the world

organizations like Erowid and MAPS and others (including this forum) are what should be openly displayed, the truth and cautions about the use of chemicals and substances through responsibility, knowledge and information. But to do so would mean that they see drug use occuring and want people who use drugs to do so safely... what about that sounds like the people who run media and government institutions?

As long as drug-use stays demonized and clandestine without hope of decriminilazition there will be no validization of things like this by the mainstream media and other related ways of mass-dispursed media.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Displays knowledge of responsible drug use behaviors.

[psilocybley]

Just wanted to throw it out there that in my opinion, the term "Risk Reduction" is far superior to "Harm Reduction." As far as drugs go, America doesn't want to hear about Harm reduction because the term itself implies that some harm is an unavoidable part of the experience. "Risk Reduction" has a nicer ring to it, and since doing harm is not an integral part of the drug-using experience, the name is a bit more appropriate, as using drugs poses the RISK of harm being done in the process.

[KomodoMK]

Originally Posted by psilocybley

Just wanted to throw it out there that in my opinion, the term "Risk Reduction" is far superior to "Harm Reduction." As far as drugs go, America doesn't want to hear about Harm reduction because the term itself implies that some harm is an unavoidable part of the experience. "Risk Reduction" has a nicer ring to it, and since doing harm is not an integral part of the drug-using experience, the name is a bit more appropriate, as using drugs poses the RISK of harm being done in the process.

You have a very good point there. It depends on which way you look at it though, if you look at in on a individualistic basis then you're right, if you look at it on a global basis then harm from drugs is unavoidable even with safe practice with some users and thus the term works. I guess everyone will interpret it different, it's all just semantics.

[beefybeef87]

wow i'm so glad i found this thread, this is some great info! this is a "sticky" worthy material.

[beefybeef87]

Hm... What about SAM-e? I heard those are good too, but i'm not sure and don't really have time to look into it.