Opinions - What do you guys think about Amphetamines having reverse effects on people with ADD?

[PsychoActivist]

SWIM has read countless articles about how Amphetamines and other stimulants such as Methylphenidate have a "reverse" effect on people with ADD. Rather than making them hyper and bouncing off the walls they are able to sit and concentrate calmly on one particular thing for a given amount of time.

But doesn't this pretty much apply to everyone? I mean, isn't that kind of what being geeked up is?

Sure it makes ones heart rate increase and makes them shaky but most of the people SWIM knows whether they claim to have ADD or not just sit around spun playing cards or writing or playing guitar or whatever they are focused on for the moment.

So what is it thats so different about the actions that it has on "ADD" patients?

Seems like it does the same thing regardless of whether one has ADD or not.

SWIM has also heard that it is more-so with younger kids that it has an opposite effect. But SWIM was prescribed Dexedrine when he was 9 years old and he used to, after school, come home and lock himself in a room and build a castle out of Lego's for 4 hours. When he takes it now the feeling is almost identicle. He doesn't necessarily bust out the Lego's but he feels like shutting himself in his room and just doing one particular thing. Perhaps writing or reading and just doing it nonstop with full concentration for hours on end.

So what do you guys think about these "reverse" effects? Bullshit or not?
SWIM can't see any difference in the way Amphetamines make a person act whether ADD or not and he was just curious to hear some of yalls thoughts.

[TestPattern]

In SWIM's opinion, the whole 'opposite effect' statement is a bit of a white lie told by doctors/med reps to justify the prescription of the substance in the treatment of ADD/ADHD. After all, no other drug claims to have one effect on a certain population, but a complete opposite effect on everyone else.

The way SWIM looks at it is this: the drugs have the same effect on everyone...stimulated CNS/CVS, focused mind, increased motivation, etc. However, those who have moderate to severe ADD/ADHD are so troubled by the effects of the condition that they need the effects of these drugs to function normally in daily life, "normal" meaning as compared to those with little or no symptoms. That's the whole point of needing a prescription for this type of drug - it has a uniform response in most bodies, and if it is determined that your body would benefit from this response, it is acceptable for you to take these very powerful drugs. It's the same way with opiate-based pain medication. They function as strong analgesics in everyone, but only a small percentage of people who have chronic pain are determined to be at the level of pain needed to take them to bring them up to 'normal' function (the way that those without the pain live).

tl;dr - there's no special difference in the chemical action these drugs have on those dealing with ADD/ADHD, but the way in which is affects them just corrects the imbalance these conditions have on their lives.

[Creation339]

SWiM supposedly have ADD. Small dose = calm and relaxed. Big dose = wired like anyone else.

[TestPattern]

I'd be willing to bet that a low dose, like the 5-30 mg that most people start at, would have that same mellowing, focusing effect on even someone who hasn't been prescribed the medication for ADD. Often, these people don't bother with such low doses though, since they're looking for a recreational use of the drug.

[Coconut]

Attention deficit disorder (the predominantly inattentive type, not hyperactive) is characterised by fatigue and inability to focus. It takes a huge effort to focus if you have ADD, more effort than it is worth. There is no feeling of reward from studying or paying attention to things that the person is not fanatically interested in, so they stare off into space and procrastinate by doing things that are rewarding (I can only imagine through the release of dopamine), such as playing video games, spending hours on Drugs Forum, whatever it is that they enjoy. They have little or no stimulation in everyday life so their minds subconsciously and desperately seek it out by ignoring non-stimulating activities and attempting to revert to things which are enjoyable. Staring off into space requires little effort so it is actually mildly pleasurable in comparison to trying to focus.

A lot of people dismiss sufferers as being lazy or not bothering, but this could not be further than the truth. My tree, for example, has been plagued with symptoms of ADD for most of his life, but they have recently become worse. He knows and has experienced many times the consequences of not working and not studying: failure and future unemployment. But, unlike with most people, he just cannot motivate himself by concentrating on these, or even the potential rewards of obtaining a degree.

With ADD sufferers, my hypothesis is that stimulants provide increased dopaminergic activity, leading to more stimulation and feelings of reward from less-than-fun activities. On methylphenidate or amphetamine, one can concentrate on anything for long periods of time, but ADD sufferers will choose to use this ability to work as they cannot do it otherwise. Larger doses will lead to more profound feelings of stimulation more commonly associated with stimulant abuse, which is why smaller doses are more effective in many cases.

I see three different "stages" on a stimulant/neurotransmitter scale.

A: Inability to focus. Fatigue, procrastination, staring off into space.
B: Ability to focus and work hard.
C: Completely wired. Insomnia, jitters, the works.

The aim of stimulants is to bring people who are in stage A (ADD sufferers) to stage B and keep them there. Higher doses will bring them to C. Normal people are always in stage B so where small doses of stimulants may further increase their productivity, it doesn't take much to throw them into C.

Yes, I'm very tired so this is completely random guessing and probably makes no sense.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thanks for the well thought-out response. It makes great sense and I enjoyed reading it.
	excellent post coconut! full of good information regarding ADD and the use of stimulants

[dutch-marshal]

SWIM does not have any acknowledged add or something like that.. but SWIM had this reversed effect of any stimulants like cocaine/speed allot of times like 50% of the time.. only when SWIm takes higher doses then with most people he gets REALLY "speedy"

[*ChemBabe*]

Regarding the first paragraph of coconut's post on inattentive ADD, it seems to be so true. Swim's first love has always been school with aspirations of being a doctor, but the past two years have seemed wasteful since countless hours have been dedicated to studying, and nothing has come of it. The fatigue is definitely part of it and you feel ridiculously lazy all the time, regardless of how motivated you are. People who don't have attention problems don't realize how hard it is to not be able to focus without the medication. Almost every topic in school takes so much more effort than it should and swim ends up with headaches from trying to force herself to concentrate. without the medication, the only things swim can focus on are things that she can relate to herself or things she is just WAAY, WAAY too interested in (i.e. hours on drug forum). So for someone with attention difficulties, the medications are a huge life saver.

[PsychoActivist]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Nobody responded for about 12 hours and then when I got home from work today I was pleased to see all of them. This question is one that has been in my mind for at least 10 years now if not longer and it's something I have always wanted to discuss and get others views and opinions on for further research.

[cra$h]

Based on swim, and a friend who has ADD, it's all a matter of dosage. With a small dose, under 30mg, it calmes both of us down. but Once swim gets past that level, he starts speeding, while it'll take 20+mg to feel the same effect. Low doses calm everyone down. It just taks more for ADD patients to get tweaked.

[*ChemBabe*]

Swim gets her prescription of vyvanse today and is excited, but a little nervous too because the strength is 60mg. Swim does not want to be "tweaked out", but considering she is not the high-strung type anyways, hopefully she can be energized like a normal person for once. And ya know, Betsym, its funny how everybodys body responds differently to things like that. Swim's younger sister experiences reactions like swiy's when it comes to taking medications. In fact, caffeine puts her to sleep, and swim's mom found that giving her codeine while she was sick would wire her up. Does swiy find she has reactions that are similar, besides just being put to sleep on amphs?

[riaahacker]

SWIM has been diagnosed with ADHD and can say amphetamine does not have a reverse effect on him, in low doses it helps him focus and organize his thoughts and what not. He has read that some people have paradoxical reactions to stimulants and making them sleepy like some having benzodiazepines causing insomnia and agitation, but in his this does not have to do with ADHD

[e4rolls]

Originally Posted by PsychoActivist

When he takes it now the feeling is almost identicle.

SWIY has'nt discovered the joys of speeding and hyperfocusing on sweet internet porn for 9-12 hours while having delusional fantasies yet?

Oh, SWIM gets super-calm after dosing with his ADHD med d-amphetamine. Unmedicated, SWIM is always moving and can't stay still. It is like SWIM is constantly shifting and fidgeting and he says all kinds of stupid offensive things and steps on everybodies toes, so to speak.

So SWIM must have his meds to function normally. Sometimes SWIM overdoses on his d-amphetamine and it has the opposite effect on SWIM, he gets very excited and over-stimulated and can't stop talking.

Does that clear anything up for SWIY?
Peace!

[PsychoActivist]

Originally Posted by e4rolls

SWIY has'nt discovered the joys of speeding and hyperfocusing on sweet internet porn for 9-12 hours while having delusional fantasies yet?

Are you kidding me? Thats all SWIM does now when he's tweaked. Locks himself in his room with the porn on for 3 days.

[*ChemBabe*]

lol! That's hysterical . Hey, whatever does the job for you, right?

[LSDMAN]

SWIM has been diagnosed with ADHD and was on ritalin and concerta for several years during middle and highschool. Now that SWIM has experimented with such drugs like Cocaine, Adderall, MDMA, is that they calm SWIM instead of giving a speedy effect. Although SWIM still has most of the effects he notices a feeling of calmness along with a stimulant effect with these drugs.

[riaahacker]

Here are SWIM's thoughts based on amphetamine use for adhd and recreation and the pharmacology he knows. Amphetamine inhibits the reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine and starts to release them at higher doses. Amphetamine has the most affinity for norepinephrine which the sympathetic nervous system uses as a signal to kick the body into overdrive which could cause the feelings of infinite energy with amphetamine it also contributes to the focusing effect. Dopamine is a little more complicated especially in cases of adhd. Dopamine in some areas in the brain are stimulatory as dopamine causes an increase in heart rate rise in blood pressure etc etc, while other areas are inhibitory causing a calming effect (think nicotine and its effects on anxiety). ADHD is theoretically caused by an abnormality of the functions of the prefrontal cortex, which for simplicity will just be assigned the function of executive control (controlling social behavior, goal oriented behavior, and impulse control) Raising dopamine in this area causes the signals in the prefrontal cortex to become stronger which in an adhd person gives the outward appearance of being calmer. SWIM's experience with amphetamine goes like this, he finds the mental effects to be extremely calming especially at higher doses (dopamine effect), but at any dose the body feels activated and at higher doses somewhat agitated, with higher heart rate, blood pressure and a feeling of needing to move around (norepinephrine effect)

Reputation Comments on this post:

great detailed post with excellent information on topic

[Coconut]

Would that be as a result of ADHD? Stimulants are prescribed for ADHD as sufferers are too active to focus, as opposed to ADD where sufferers are too inactive to focus.

I know they are now considered subsets of the same condition but I prefer to refer to inattentive type as ADD and hyperactivity as ADHD. It's just handier and I feel they should be considered separate disorders.

[Coconut]

This is a very interesting thread. ADD and ADHD are poorly understood conditions and this discussion seems to be throwing some fairly plausible theories into the mix. Good stuff, I say.